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Re: Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?

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  • kwilson800@aol.com
    Yep. That s why the last two boats were lapstrake plywood. Spend a little more for good plywood, sand a lot less. I m getting less and less tolerant of
    Message 1 of 27 , May 2, 2001
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      Yep. That's why the last two boats were lapstrake plywood. Spend a
      little more for good plywood, sand a lot less. I'm getting less and
      less tolerant of sanding. The guy who wrote "Canoecraft" (Ted
      Moore?) of Bear Mountain Canoe works, can do a better job of getting
      fiberglass cloth smooth and flat than seems possible, but he hasn't
      put his secret in the books. I wish he would.

      Keith Wilson

      --- In bolger@y..., "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@b...> wrote:
      > I hate sanding epoxy . . .
      > (I've promised myself that I'm going to build a boat without
      plywood, epoxy, or glass, but I haven't done it yet.)
    • djost@ma.ultranet.com
      Paul, I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated, perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs that require a leisure
      Message 2 of 27 , May 2, 2001
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        Paul,

        I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated,
        perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs that
        require a leisure pace.

        I have run into a problem with drilling holes in my lead keel.
        The drill keeps grabbing and major pressure backwards is needed to
        extract the drill. I have tried oiling the tip, and drilling slowly
        but have broken $10 worth of drill bits so far. If no one has any
        better suggestions I will just pony up another $10. The good news is
        that when they break I just hammer them home into the lead. No
        damage done other than financial.

        DAvid JOst

        "working rather than boatbuilding :-("
        > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60 miles
        to my
        > north, and his iminent launch!
        >
        > Paul Lefebvre
      • ellengaest@boatbuilding.com
        Hi David, Why are you drilling the holes? I would imagine that if you can drive the broken drill bits into the lead and are using bronze nails(stronger/stiffer
        Message 3 of 27 , May 2, 2001
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          Hi David,
          Why are you drilling the holes? I would imagine that if you can
          drive the broken drill bits into the lead and are using bronze
          nails(stronger/stiffer then lead) then should they not drive in just
          as easily?

          Got my Micro all wet this evening at 18:25!!!!!!!What a wonderful
          feeling to be on board after a long winter on the hard.Judging by the
          way she dipped and rolled while I was on board,I would have to guess
          that she is tickled pink at being back in her element.Were it not for
          other obligations later this evening,I would have spent the night on
          board!!!!!!!

          Sure wish I coulda been there to help with the keel.......
          Sincerely,
          Peter Lenihan,going through something of a heat wave with temps in
          the 29 to 30 degree celsius range,on the shores of the St.Lawrence....


          --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
          > Paul,
          >
          > I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated,
          > perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs
          that
          > require a leisure pace.
          >
          > I have run into a problem with drilling holes in my lead keel.
          > The drill keeps grabbing and major pressure backwards is needed to
          > extract the drill. I have tried oiling the tip, and drilling slowly
          > but have broken $10 worth of drill bits so far. If no one has any
          > better suggestions I will just pony up another $10. The good news
          is
          > that when they break I just hammer them home into the lead. No
          > damage done other than financial.
          >
          > DAvid JOst
          >
          > "working rather than boatbuilding :-("
          > > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60
          miles
          > to my
          > > north, and his iminent launch!
          > >
          > > Paul Lefebvre
        • Clyde S. Wisner
          When you spread this stuff with a roller, you might try tipping with a dry foam brush, drag the brush across after you spread a couple of sq ft, no down
          Message 4 of 27 , May 3, 2001
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            When you spread this stuff with a roller, you might try "tipping" with a dry foam brush, drag the
            brush across after you spread a couple of sq ft, no down presure. May eliminate orange peel. Clyde

            ellengaest@... wrote:

            > Hi Randy,
            > Not too sure what you're after;"a smooth fiberglass surface" or "a
            > paintable surface".If "paintable",then I would stop where you are and
            > begin with the paint à la workboat finish.However,if it is the smooth
            > fiberglass look you are seeking then I would proceed as follows:
            > Finish sanding the second coat of epoxy.
            > Get hold of Interlux 401/402(if I recall correctly!) Barrier
            > coat.
          • djost@ma.ultranet.com
            No Peter, In my test run, the bronze nails bent too much prior to seating due to the antimony that was added to the casting. The casting is too hard to drive
            Message 5 of 27 , May 3, 2001
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              No Peter,
              In my test run, the bronze nails bent too much prior to seating
              due to the antimony that was added to the casting. The casting is too
              hard to drive the nails, yet too soft for very sharp titanium drills.
              I will try dipping a less sharp drill bit in kerosene (plenty of those
              hurricane lamps in the garage) and try the other side this weekend.

              David Jost
              "Suffering from Micro envy, knock it off Peter! :-)"
              >
              > Got my Micro all wet this evening at 18:25!!!!!!!What a wonderful
              > feeling to be on board after a long winter on the hard.Judging by the
              > way she dipped and rolled while I was on board,I would have to guess
              > that she is tickled pink at being back in her element.Were it not for
              > other obligations later this evening,I would have spent the night on
              > board!!!!!!!
              >
              > Sure wish I coulda been there to help with the keel.......
              > Sincerely,
              > Peter Lenihan,going through something of a heat wave with temps in
              > the 29 to 30 degree celsius range,on the shores of the St.Lawrence....
              >
              >
              > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
              > > Paul,
              > >
              > > I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated,
              > > perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs
              > that
              > > require a leisure pace.
              > >
              > > I have run into a problem with drilling holes in my lead keel.
              > > The drill keeps grabbing and major pressure backwards is needed to
              > > extract the drill. I have tried oiling the tip, and drilling slowly
              > > but have broken $10 worth of drill bits so far. If no one has any
              > > better suggestions I will just pony up another $10. The good news
              > is
              > > that when they break I just hammer them home into the lead. No
              > > damage done other than financial.
              > >
              > > DAvid JOst
              > >
              > > "working rather than boatbuilding :-("
              > > > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60
              > miles
              > > to my
              > > > north, and his iminent launch!
              > > >
              > > > Paul Lefebvre
            • Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr.
              Dave, I acquired a drill press a couple years ago, with vastly variable speed, and owning it has allowed me to experiment drilling things I never would have
              Message 6 of 27 , May 3, 2001
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                Dave,
                I acquired a drill press a couple years ago, with vastly variable speed,
                and owning it has allowed me to experiment drilling things I never would
                have tackled by hand before. Seems like the slower speeds work better with
                metals; not as much torque when it grabs, as it inevitably does when you
                don't have the thing perfectly clamped down in a proper vise; your keel
                isn't moving but your arms surely are, same effect. I've only drilled
                aluminum and some steel, not lead, so can't speak from firsthand experience
                (yet!) but a slower drill speed is easy and cheap to experiment with. I have
                an old Sears 3/8" variable-speed reversing drill I picked up cheap at a yard
                sale, hardly ever use it now that I have a cordless, but the little knob on
                the trigger that lets you set the max trigger depth/drill speed might be
                just the kind of gadget you'd need for this. Just a thought.... If you want
                to borrow it, meet me at Logan Wednesday, lunchtime ;-).... or I can Fed-ex
                it up to you if you want it sooner!
                I've got even more micro envy than you! At least you're working on yours,
                I'm preparing for a 2-week business trip, and looking at yet more delays to
                start construction.... But I do enjoy Peter's ravings about his sweet little
                boat.

                good luck!

                Paul

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: djost@... [mailto:djost@...]
                > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:30 AM
                > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [bolger] Re: Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                >
                >
                > No Peter,
                > In my test run, the bronze nails bent too much prior to seating
                > due to the antimony that was added to the casting. The casting is too
                > hard to drive the nails, yet too soft for very sharp titanium drills.
                > I will try dipping a less sharp drill bit in kerosene (plenty of those
                > hurricane lamps in the garage) and try the other side this weekend.
                >
                > David Jost
                > "Suffering from Micro envy, knock it off Peter! :-)"
                > >
                > > Got my Micro all wet this evening at 18:25!!!!!!!What a wonderful
                > > feeling to be on board after a long winter on the hard.Judging by the
                > > way she dipped and rolled while I was on board,I would have to guess
                > > that she is tickled pink at being back in her element.Were it not for
                > > other obligations later this evening,I would have spent the night on
                > > board!!!!!!!
                > >
                > > Sure wish I coulda been there to help with the keel.......
                > > Sincerely,
                > > Peter Lenihan,going through something of a heat wave with temps in
                > > the 29 to 30 degree celsius range,on the shores of the St.Lawrence....
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                > > > Paul,
                > > >
                > > > I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated,
                > > > perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs
                > > that
                > > > require a leisure pace.
                > > >
                > > > I have run into a problem with drilling holes in my lead keel.
                > > > The drill keeps grabbing and major pressure backwards is needed to
                > > > extract the drill. I have tried oiling the tip, and drilling slowly
                > > > but have broken $10 worth of drill bits so far. If no one has any
                > > > better suggestions I will just pony up another $10. The good news
                > > is
                > > > that when they break I just hammer them home into the lead. No
                > > > damage done other than financial.
                > > >
                > > > DAvid JOst
                > > >
                > > > "working rather than boatbuilding :-("
                > > > > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60
                > > miles
                > > > to my
                > > > > north, and his iminent launch!
                > > > >
                > > > > Paul Lefebvre
                >
                >
                >
                > Bolger rules!!!
                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                > - no flogging dead horses
                > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                > - stay on topic and punctuate
                > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • Jim Chamberlin RCSIS
                Randy, This is the conclusion that I think most of us come to...decent finish and launch the thing. To satisfy that desire to put something on the boat with a
                Message 7 of 27 , May 3, 2001
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                  Randy,

                  This is the conclusion that I think most of us come to...decent finish and
                  launch the thing.

                  To satisfy that desire to put something on the boat with a high quality
                  finish to it, try adding a few pieces of bright finished mahogany, oak, teak
                  (really expensive) etc. The gunwales and inwales of my first Pointy Skiff
                  are done in Philipine Mahogany. The hardwood looks good and so far has held
                  up great to dock banging, oar whacking, and little kids dragging things on
                  and off the boat.

                  Jim

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: rrobar@... [mailto:rrobar@...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 2:15 PM
                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [bolger] Re: Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks for all the responses! I've decided to go with the looks-
                  > great-from-10-feet option: sand lightly, cover with paint, then push
                  > Micro into the water. Afterall, it's a sailboat, not a yacht.
                  >
                  > randy
                  > quickly turning lots of expensive wood and epoxy into dust outside
                  > Boston
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@y..., "Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr." <paul@w...> wrote:
                  > > I've been sitting on the sidelines on this one, but having just
                  > recently
                  > > sanded and varnished the fiberglass coating on my 4th cedar-strip
                  > canoe to
                  > > foot-away quality bright finish inside and out, perhaps I oughta
                  > toss in my
                  > > 2 cents worth, elaborating on Jamie's suggestions.
                  > > I do all my glass layup and subsequent coats in a single day -
                  > I put the
                  > > cloth on dry on bare wood, on an upside-down boat, wet it out and
                  > squeegee
                  > > off most of the resin with a very flexible plastic spatula (the
                  > ones sold by
                  > > West system, or for autobody work, are too stiff and will scrape
                  > out too
                  > > much resin! I prefer the plastic cake spatulas of the same
                  > rectangular
                  > > shape, sold under various names - I bought a bunch with 'frugal
                  > gourmet'
                  > > logos on them). This method takes alot of epoxy back out of the
                  > cloth in the
                  > > form of non-reusable foamy semi-kicked gunk, but saves so much
                  > sanding work
                  > > that I think it's worth the price.Once the resin is set up enough
                  > to be
                  > > firm, but still a bit tacky, roll, brush, or squeegee on a second
                  > coat to
                  > > fill the weave; a third coat for 6 oz and probably a 4th coat for
                  > anything
                  > > coarser, but on 4 oz. cloth 2 coats is just enough. You don't want
                  > to sand
                  > > through any cloth, it will seriously weaken the expensive sheath
                  > you went to
                  > > all the trouble to put on in the first place, so filling in the
                  > weave is
                  > > important; and if you leave it overnight and let the first layup
                  > coat harden
                  > > completely before recoating, you really should sand for good
                  > adhesion before
                  > > the second coat, or at least scrub with a scotchbrite and amonia to
                  > remove
                  > > the blush. Sanding after only 1 coat means you're weakening your
                  > cloth,
                  > > hence the long day and multiple coats to really do it most
                  > efficiently.
                  > > Presumably the blush 'floats' to the surface if you apply coats in
                  > > close-enough succession.
                  > > After going through this and applying 6 coats of Epifanes
                  > varnish, and
                  > > right up to delivering the canoe (it was a birthday gift to my
                  > brother), I
                  > > was swearing I'd never go through this again, at least to an
                  > unforgiving
                  > > varnish-perfect level of finish. Then we dropped it the Chesapeake
                  > on Easter
                  > > Sunday, and it all evaporated... I hadn't launched a boat since
                  > June of '95,
                  > > had forgotten what a sweet feeling it is - nothing comes close, and
                  > I feel
                  > > like a boatbuilder again. I'd post a photo but it's not a Bolger
                  > boat, and
                  > > I'll take the following cheap shot to help justify this post ;-):
                  > Now my
                  > > shop's empty and I'm free to start construction on my micro (sails
                  > have been
                  > > done for awhile), just as soon as I recover from Uncle Sam's rather
                  > vigorous
                  > > pat-down on April 15..... anyone paying attention to my ravings a
                  > couple
                  > > months ago already guessed I wouldn't make it to the Champlain
                  > messabout in
                  > > a micro this year, but I will bring something pretty that
                  > floats..... sorry
                  > > for the long post.
                  > >
                  > > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60 miles
                  > to my
                  > > north, and his iminent launch!
                  > >
                  > > Paul Lefebvre
                  >
                  >
                  > Bolger rules!!!
                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                  > - no flogging dead horses
                  > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                  > - stay on topic and punctuate
                  > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                  > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                  > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • djost@ma.ultranet.com
                  Paul, I am sorry I can t meet you at Logan on Wed. My school superintendent would frown on me skipping out on my teaching responsibilies. (I have a concert
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 3, 2001
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                    Paul,
                    I am sorry I can't meet you at Logan on Wed. My school
                    superintendent would frown on me skipping out on my teaching
                    responsibilies. (I have a concert that night anyway). I have been
                    using the cordless and it is either slow or fast with no inbetween. I
                    am going to try the variable speed electric and pick up an handful of
                    real cheap bits and just go through them. If they break they will
                    become part of the boat. what the heck . . .

                    David Jost
                    "avoiding work again"

                    > to borrow it, meet me at Logan Wednesday, lunchtime ;-).... or I can Fed-ex
                    > it up to you if you want it sooner!
                    > I've got even more micro envy than you! At least you're working on yours,
                    > I'm preparing for a 2-week business trip, and looking at yet more delays to
                    > start construction.... But I do enjoy Peter's ravings about his sweet little
                    > boat.
                    >
                    > good luck!
                    >
                    > Paul
                    >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: djost@m... [mailto:djost@m...]
                    > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:30 AM
                    > > To: bolger@y...
                    > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > No Peter,
                    > > In my test run, the bronze nails bent too much prior to seating
                    > > due to the antimony that was added to the casting. The casting is too
                    > > hard to drive the nails, yet too soft for very sharp titanium drills.
                    > > I will try dipping a less sharp drill bit in kerosene (plenty of those
                    > > hurricane lamps in the garage) and try the other side this weekend.
                    > >
                    > > David Jost
                    > > "Suffering from Micro envy, knock it off Peter! :-)"
                    > > >
                    > > > Got my Micro all wet this evening at 18:25!!!!!!!What a wonderful
                    > > > feeling to be on board after a long winter on the hard.Judging by the
                    > > > way she dipped and rolled while I was on board,I would have to guess
                    > > > that she is tickled pink at being back in her element.Were it not for
                    > > > other obligations later this evening,I would have spent the night on
                    > > > board!!!!!!!
                    > > >
                    > > > Sure wish I coulda been there to help with the keel.......
                    > > > Sincerely,
                    > > > Peter Lenihan,going through something of a heat wave with temps in
                    > > > the 29 to 30 degree celsius range,on the shores of the St.Lawrence....
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                    > > > > Paul,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated,
                    > > > > perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs
                    > > > that
                    > > > > require a leisure pace.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have run into a problem with drilling holes in my lead keel.
                    > > > > The drill keeps grabbing and major pressure backwards is needed to
                    > > > > extract the drill. I have tried oiling the tip, and drilling slowly
                    > > > > but have broken $10 worth of drill bits so far. If no one has any
                    > > > > better suggestions I will just pony up another $10. The good news
                    > > > is
                    > > > > that when they break I just hammer them home into the lead. No
                    > > > > damage done other than financial.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > DAvid JOst
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "working rather than boatbuilding :-("
                    > > > > > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60
                    > > > miles
                    > > > > to my
                    > > > > > north, and his iminent launch!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Paul Lefebvre
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Bolger rules!!!
                    > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                    > > - no flogging dead horses
                    > > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                    > > - stay on topic and punctuate
                    > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                    > > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                    > > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                  • KF4call@aol.com
                    The Fall 2000 Epoxyworks , published by West, has an article titled Fiberglassing a Woodstrip Hull...Techniques for a Perfect Clear Finish . Covers all
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 4, 2001
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                      The Fall 2000 "Epoxyworks", published by West, has an article titled
                      "Fiberglassing a Woodstrip Hull...Techniques for a Perfect Clear
                      Finish". Covers all sorts of things such as vaiations in technique depending
                      on the coat. They recommend different approaches for first, second and third
                      coats. The content is quite thorough and even goes into detail on the type
                      of rags to use. There isn't a lot here on finishing, but I imagine, if ou
                      can get it on smoother, the finishing should be less demanding.

                      In our discussion, I haven't heard much on the use of scrapers...sharp
                      blades held nearly vertical to the surface. Anyone using them? What happens
                      if you hit the glass cloth with a scraper?

                      Regards,
                      Warren

                      In a message dated 5/4/2001 6:53:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      jorr@... writes:

                      << > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Chuck Leinweber [mailto:chuck@...]
                      > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 10:26 AM
                      > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: RE: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                      >
                      >
                      > Don's method is fine if you want a nice finish, but many don't. I go for
                      > work boat finish. I give the cloth a second coat to fill the weave, then
                      > Random orbital sand, and paint. Be sure to stand back 10 feet
                      > when you show
                      > it off. This method will get you in the water a lot faster.
                      >
                      > Chuck
                      > >>
                    • Chuck Leinweber
                      Hi, Warren: I use scrapers a lot, not just on boats. They work very well on epoxy/glass, with these caveats: Try to do the scraping on heavy areas before the
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 4, 2001
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                        Hi, Warren:

                        I use scrapers a lot, not just on boats. They work very well on
                        epoxy/glass, with these caveats: Try to do the scraping on heavy areas
                        before the resin is completely cured, and use good steel, as they will get
                        dull fast enough when you hit glass.

                        Chuck


                        In our discussion, I haven't heard much on the use of scrapers...sharp
                        blades held nearly vertical to the surface. Anyone using them? What
                        happens
                        if you hit the glass cloth with a scraper?

                        Regards,
                        Warren
                      • phillip_lea@yahoo.com
                        Agree with Jim. I have used 100% acrylic satin house paint that can get scuffed off, but having a few varnished pieces (mast, tiller, etc.) sets off the whole
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 4, 2001
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                          Agree with Jim. I have used 100% acrylic satin house paint that can
                          get scuffed off, but having a few varnished pieces (mast, tiller,
                          etc.) sets off the whole boat -- scuffed paint doesn't look nearly so
                          bad. Spar varnish over clear coat epoxy (System 3) is a rugged
                          finish.

                          Phil Lea

                          --- In bolger@y..., "Jim Chamberlin RCSIS" <jchamberlin@r...> wrote:
                          > To satisfy that desire to put something on the boat with a high
                          quality
                          > finish to it, try adding a few pieces of bright finished mahogany,
                          oak, teak
                          > (really expensive) etc. The gunwales and inwales of my first Pointy
                          Skiff
                          > are done in Philipine Mahogany.
                        • j.c.ewing@home.com
                          I ve been using pull-scrapers to remove old finish on the hull of my Tendercraft stripper skiff, Nandessa. The cloth beneath is probably only about 2-oz. but
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 4, 2001
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                            I've been using pull-scrapers to remove old finish on the hull of my
                            Tendercraft stripper skiff, Nandessa. The cloth beneath is probably
                            only about 2-oz. but I've found the scraper only grazes it, without
                            noticeable damage.

                            I'm not keen on chemical stripping and a pull-stripper alone had left
                            patches of old varnish on the (somewhat rough) oaken outer stem and
                            keel, skeg and rub strips. So today I used a heat gun along with the
                            pull-scraper and everything came off beautifully. I also tried this
                            technique on a spot where I'd been unable to sand or scrape old
                            varnish off the clear-coat (but deteriorated) epoxy. It almost worked
                            too well, the epoxy bubbling when it got too hot. But it almost makes
                            me think about heat-stripping the old epoxy right off the 'glass for
                            a nice, fresh base.

                            John in Victoria


                            --- In bolger@y..., KF4call@a... wrote:
                            > In our discussion, I haven't heard much on the use of
                            scrapers...sharp
                            > blades held nearly vertical to the surface. Anyone using them?
                            What happens
                            > if you hit the glass cloth with a scraper?
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            > Warren
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