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RE: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?

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  • Jim Chamberlin RCSIS
    I second Chuck s suggestion, but I have also used a belt sander with 60 grit. Used carefully and followed up with an orbital using 120 and sometimes a lighter
    Message 1 of 27 , May 1, 2001
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      I second Chuck's suggestion, but I have also used a belt sander with 60
      grit. Used carefully and followed up with an orbital using 120 and
      sometimes a lighter weight gets a nice finish for me. Standing back 10 feet
      is also recommended.

      Jim C

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Chuck Leinweber [mailto:chuck@...]
      > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 10:26 AM
      > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
      >
      >
      > Don's method is fine if you want a nice finish, but many don't. I go for
      > work boat finish. I give the cloth a second coat to fill the weave, then
      > Random orbital sand, and paint. Be sure to stand back 10 feet
      > when you show
      > it off. This method will get you in the water a lot faster.
      >
      > Chuck
      >
      > Subject: Re: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
      >
      > Randy,
      >
      > To get it really smooth, you have to use long semi-flexible
      > sanding battens.
      > Mine are made of 3/8" plywood and are 2 and 2 1/2 feet long,
      > width is to fit
      > a half sheet of paper. I stick the paper to them with 3M spray cement. I
      > suppose you are fairing with a compound? Microballons and resin, maybe? Be
      > sure to use a notched trowel to apply the compound, or you'll sand it all
      > away each time :-)
      >
      > Cheers/Carron
      >
      >
      >
      > Bolger rules!!!
      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
      > - no flogging dead horses
      > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
      > - stay on topic and punctuate
      > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
      > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
      > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • rrobar@segue.com
      Thanks everyone. I ve decided to breakout the sander, roll on some paint, and push Micro into the water. It is after all a working sailboat, not a yacht. ...
      Message 2 of 27 , May 2, 2001
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        Thanks everyone. I've decided to breakout the sander, roll on some
        paint, and push Micro into the water. It is after all a working
        sailboat, not a yacht.


        --- In bolger@y..., "Jim Chamberlin RCSIS" <jchamberlin@r...> wrote:
        > I second Chuck's suggestion, but I have also used a belt sander
        with 60
        > grit. Used carefully and followed up with an orbital using 120 and
        > sometimes a lighter weight gets a nice finish for me. Standing
        back 10 feet
        > is also recommended.
        >
        > Jim C
        >
      • Orr, Jamie
        I may be chiming in late on this one -- I had a pile of emails to deal with when I got home from Depoe Bay, so I probably didn t pay close attention to all of
        Message 3 of 27 , May 2, 2001
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          I may be chiming in late on this one -- I had a pile of emails to deal with
          when I got home from Depoe Bay, so I probably didn't pay close attention to
          all of them. However, here's my two bits.

          I hate sanding epoxy, so I try not to put on more than I have to. I use a
          squeegee to wet out the cloth, and to remove excess, so that only a thin
          coat is left on. I sometimes use a squeegee for the second, and even the
          third coat, but more often use a thin foam roller (west) followed by
          brushing to even out the coat and smooth the surface. Keeping the coats
          thin cuts the sanding way down, and (almost) eliminates any chance of
          sagging.

          For a good description of the sanding operation, take a look at a the
          Chesapeake Light Craft shop tips on their website. I follow these
          guidelines for as long as I can stand it, then call the job finished -- I'm
          not sure there is an "easiest" way, but maybe there is one that is least
          difficult!

          (I've promised myself that I'm going to build a boat without plywood, epoxy
          or glass, but I haven't done it yet.)

          Jamie Orr


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Jim Chamberlin RCSIS [mailto:jchamberlin@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 9:53 PM
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?


          I second Chuck's suggestion, but I have also used a belt sander with 60
          grit. Used carefully and followed up with an orbital using 120 and
          sometimes a lighter weight gets a nice finish for me. Standing back 10 feet
          is also recommended.

          Jim C

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Chuck Leinweber [mailto:chuck@...]
          > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 10:26 AM
          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
          >
          >
          > Don's method is fine if you want a nice finish, but many don't. I go for
          > work boat finish. I give the cloth a second coat to fill the weave, then
          > Random orbital sand, and paint. Be sure to stand back 10 feet
          > when you show
          > it off. This method will get you in the water a lot faster.
          >
          > Chuck
          >
          > Subject: Re: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
          >
          > Randy,
          >
          > To get it really smooth, you have to use long semi-flexible
          > sanding battens.
          > Mine are made of 3/8" plywood and are 2 and 2 1/2 feet long,
          > width is to fit
          > a half sheet of paper. I stick the paper to them with 3M spray cement. I
          > suppose you are fairing with a compound? Microballons and resin, maybe? Be
          > sure to use a notched trowel to apply the compound, or you'll sand it all
          > away each time :-)
          >
          > Cheers/Carron
          >
          >
          >
          > Bolger rules!!!
          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
          > - no flogging dead horses
          > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
          > - stay on topic and punctuate
          > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
          > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
          > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >


          Bolger rules!!!
          - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
          - no flogging dead horses
          - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
          - stay on topic and punctuate
          - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
          - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • kwilson800@aol.com
          Yep. That s why the last two boats were lapstrake plywood. Spend a little more for good plywood, sand a lot less. I m getting less and less tolerant of
          Message 4 of 27 , May 2, 2001
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            Yep. That's why the last two boats were lapstrake plywood. Spend a
            little more for good plywood, sand a lot less. I'm getting less and
            less tolerant of sanding. The guy who wrote "Canoecraft" (Ted
            Moore?) of Bear Mountain Canoe works, can do a better job of getting
            fiberglass cloth smooth and flat than seems possible, but he hasn't
            put his secret in the books. I wish he would.

            Keith Wilson

            --- In bolger@y..., "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@b...> wrote:
            > I hate sanding epoxy . . .
            > (I've promised myself that I'm going to build a boat without
            plywood, epoxy, or glass, but I haven't done it yet.)
          • Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr.
            I ve been sitting on the sidelines on this one, but having just recently sanded and varnished the fiberglass coating on my 4th cedar-strip canoe to foot-away
            Message 5 of 27 , May 2, 2001
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              I've been sitting on the sidelines on this one, but having just recently
              sanded and varnished the fiberglass coating on my 4th cedar-strip canoe to
              foot-away quality bright finish inside and out, perhaps I oughta toss in my
              2 cents worth, elaborating on Jamie's suggestions.
              I do all my glass layup and subsequent coats in a single day - I put the
              cloth on dry on bare wood, on an upside-down boat, wet it out and squeegee
              off most of the resin with a very flexible plastic spatula (the ones sold by
              West system, or for autobody work, are too stiff and will scrape out too
              much resin! I prefer the plastic cake spatulas of the same rectangular
              shape, sold under various names - I bought a bunch with 'frugal gourmet'
              logos on them). This method takes alot of epoxy back out of the cloth in the
              form of non-reusable foamy semi-kicked gunk, but saves so much sanding work
              that I think it's worth the price.Once the resin is set up enough to be
              firm, but still a bit tacky, roll, brush, or squeegee on a second coat to
              fill the weave; a third coat for 6 oz and probably a 4th coat for anything
              coarser, but on 4 oz. cloth 2 coats is just enough. You don't want to sand
              through any cloth, it will seriously weaken the expensive sheath you went to
              all the trouble to put on in the first place, so filling in the weave is
              important; and if you leave it overnight and let the first layup coat harden
              completely before recoating, you really should sand for good adhesion before
              the second coat, or at least scrub with a scotchbrite and amonia to remove
              the blush. Sanding after only 1 coat means you're weakening your cloth,
              hence the long day and multiple coats to really do it most efficiently.
              Presumably the blush 'floats' to the surface if you apply coats in
              close-enough succession.
              After going through this and applying 6 coats of Epifanes varnish, and
              right up to delivering the canoe (it was a birthday gift to my brother), I
              was swearing I'd never go through this again, at least to an unforgiving
              varnish-perfect level of finish. Then we dropped it the Chesapeake on Easter
              Sunday, and it all evaporated... I hadn't launched a boat since June of '95,
              had forgotten what a sweet feeling it is - nothing comes close, and I feel
              like a boatbuilder again. I'd post a photo but it's not a Bolger boat, and
              I'll take the following cheap shot to help justify this post ;-): Now my
              shop's empty and I'm free to start construction on my micro (sails have been
              done for awhile), just as soon as I recover from Uncle Sam's rather vigorous
              pat-down on April 15..... anyone paying attention to my ravings a couple
              months ago already guessed I wouldn't make it to the Champlain messabout in
              a micro this year, but I will bring something pretty that floats..... sorry
              for the long post.

              Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60 miles to my
              north, and his iminent launch!

              Paul Lefebvre
            • djost@ma.ultranet.com
              Paul, I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated, perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs that require a leisure
              Message 6 of 27 , May 2, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Paul,

                I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated,
                perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs that
                require a leisure pace.

                I have run into a problem with drilling holes in my lead keel.
                The drill keeps grabbing and major pressure backwards is needed to
                extract the drill. I have tried oiling the tip, and drilling slowly
                but have broken $10 worth of drill bits so far. If no one has any
                better suggestions I will just pony up another $10. The good news is
                that when they break I just hammer them home into the lead. No
                damage done other than financial.

                DAvid JOst

                "working rather than boatbuilding :-("
                > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60 miles
                to my
                > north, and his iminent launch!
                >
                > Paul Lefebvre
              • Jim Chamberlin RCSIS
                A lot of emails? I only had 153. BTW, your boat is beautiful. Jim
                Message 7 of 27 , May 2, 2001
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                  A lot of emails? I only had 153. BTW, your boat is beautiful.
                  Jim

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Orr, Jamie [mailto:jorr@...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 8:13 AM
                  > To: 'bolger@yahoogroups.com'
                  > Subject: RE: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                  >
                  >
                  > I may be chiming in late on this one -- I had a pile of emails to
                  > deal with
                  > when I got home from Depoe Bay, so I probably didn't pay close
                  > attention to
                  > all of them. However, here's my two bits.
                  >
                  > I hate sanding epoxy, so I try not to put on more than I have to. I use a
                  > squeegee to wet out the cloth, and to remove excess, so that only a thin
                  > coat is left on. I sometimes use a squeegee for the second, and even the
                  > third coat, but more often use a thin foam roller (west) followed by
                  > brushing to even out the coat and smooth the surface. Keeping the coats
                  > thin cuts the sanding way down, and (almost) eliminates any chance of
                  > sagging.
                  >
                  > For a good description of the sanding operation, take a look at a the
                  > Chesapeake Light Craft shop tips on their website. I follow these
                  > guidelines for as long as I can stand it, then call the job
                  > finished -- I'm
                  > not sure there is an "easiest" way, but maybe there is one that is least
                  > difficult!
                  >
                  > (I've promised myself that I'm going to build a boat without
                  > plywood, epoxy
                  > or glass, but I haven't done it yet.)
                  >
                  > Jamie Orr
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Jim Chamberlin RCSIS [mailto:jchamberlin@...]
                  > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 9:53 PM
                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                  >
                  >
                  > I second Chuck's suggestion, but I have also used a belt sander with 60
                  > grit. Used carefully and followed up with an orbital using 120 and
                  > sometimes a lighter weight gets a nice finish for me. Standing
                  > back 10 feet
                  > is also recommended.
                  >
                  > Jim C
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Chuck Leinweber [mailto:chuck@...]
                  > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 10:26 AM
                  > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: RE: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Don's method is fine if you want a nice finish, but many don't.
                  > I go for
                  > > work boat finish. I give the cloth a second coat to fill the
                  > weave, then
                  > > Random orbital sand, and paint. Be sure to stand back 10 feet
                  > > when you show
                  > > it off. This method will get you in the water a lot faster.
                  > >
                  > > Chuck
                  > >
                  > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                  > >
                  > > Randy,
                  > >
                  > > To get it really smooth, you have to use long semi-flexible
                  > > sanding battens.
                  > > Mine are made of 3/8" plywood and are 2 and 2 1/2 feet long,
                  > > width is to fit
                  > > a half sheet of paper. I stick the paper to them with 3M spray cement. I
                  > > suppose you are fairing with a compound? Microballons and
                  > resin, maybe? Be
                  > > sure to use a notched trowel to apply the compound, or you'll
                  > sand it all
                  > > away each time :-)
                  > >
                  > > Cheers/Carron
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Bolger rules!!!
                  > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                  > > - no flogging dead horses
                  > > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                  > > - stay on topic and punctuate
                  > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                  > > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                  > > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > Bolger rules!!!
                  > - no
                  > cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                  > - no flogging dead horses
                  > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                  > - stay on topic and punctuate
                  > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                  > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                  > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  > Bolger rules!!!
                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                  > - no flogging dead horses
                  > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                  > - stay on topic and punctuate
                  > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                  > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                  > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • rrobar@segue.com
                  Thanks for all the responses! I ve decided to go with the looks- great-from-10-feet option: sand lightly, cover with paint, then push Micro into the water.
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 2, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks for all the responses! I've decided to go with the looks-
                    great-from-10-feet option: sand lightly, cover with paint, then push
                    Micro into the water. Afterall, it's a sailboat, not a yacht.

                    randy
                    quickly turning lots of expensive wood and epoxy into dust outside
                    Boston


                    --- In bolger@y..., "Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr." <paul@w...> wrote:
                    > I've been sitting on the sidelines on this one, but having just
                    recently
                    > sanded and varnished the fiberglass coating on my 4th cedar-strip
                    canoe to
                    > foot-away quality bright finish inside and out, perhaps I oughta
                    toss in my
                    > 2 cents worth, elaborating on Jamie's suggestions.
                    > I do all my glass layup and subsequent coats in a single day -
                    I put the
                    > cloth on dry on bare wood, on an upside-down boat, wet it out and
                    squeegee
                    > off most of the resin with a very flexible plastic spatula (the
                    ones sold by
                    > West system, or for autobody work, are too stiff and will scrape
                    out too
                    > much resin! I prefer the plastic cake spatulas of the same
                    rectangular
                    > shape, sold under various names - I bought a bunch with 'frugal
                    gourmet'
                    > logos on them). This method takes alot of epoxy back out of the
                    cloth in the
                    > form of non-reusable foamy semi-kicked gunk, but saves so much
                    sanding work
                    > that I think it's worth the price.Once the resin is set up enough
                    to be
                    > firm, but still a bit tacky, roll, brush, or squeegee on a second
                    coat to
                    > fill the weave; a third coat for 6 oz and probably a 4th coat for
                    anything
                    > coarser, but on 4 oz. cloth 2 coats is just enough. You don't want
                    to sand
                    > through any cloth, it will seriously weaken the expensive sheath
                    you went to
                    > all the trouble to put on in the first place, so filling in the
                    weave is
                    > important; and if you leave it overnight and let the first layup
                    coat harden
                    > completely before recoating, you really should sand for good
                    adhesion before
                    > the second coat, or at least scrub with a scotchbrite and amonia to
                    remove
                    > the blush. Sanding after only 1 coat means you're weakening your
                    cloth,
                    > hence the long day and multiple coats to really do it most
                    efficiently.
                    > Presumably the blush 'floats' to the surface if you apply coats in
                    > close-enough succession.
                    > After going through this and applying 6 coats of Epifanes
                    varnish, and
                    > right up to delivering the canoe (it was a birthday gift to my
                    brother), I
                    > was swearing I'd never go through this again, at least to an
                    unforgiving
                    > varnish-perfect level of finish. Then we dropped it the Chesapeake
                    on Easter
                    > Sunday, and it all evaporated... I hadn't launched a boat since
                    June of '95,
                    > had forgotten what a sweet feeling it is - nothing comes close, and
                    I feel
                    > like a boatbuilder again. I'd post a photo but it's not a Bolger
                    boat, and
                    > I'll take the following cheap shot to help justify this post ;-):
                    Now my
                    > shop's empty and I'm free to start construction on my micro (sails
                    have been
                    > done for awhile), just as soon as I recover from Uncle Sam's rather
                    vigorous
                    > pat-down on April 15..... anyone paying attention to my ravings a
                    couple
                    > months ago already guessed I wouldn't make it to the Champlain
                    messabout in
                    > a micro this year, but I will bring something pretty that
                    floats..... sorry
                    > for the long post.
                    >
                    > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60 miles
                    to my
                    > north, and his iminent launch!
                    >
                    > Paul Lefebvre
                  • ellengaest@boatbuilding.com
                    Hi David, Why are you drilling the holes? I would imagine that if you can drive the broken drill bits into the lead and are using bronze nails(stronger/stiffer
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 2, 2001
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                      Hi David,
                      Why are you drilling the holes? I would imagine that if you can
                      drive the broken drill bits into the lead and are using bronze
                      nails(stronger/stiffer then lead) then should they not drive in just
                      as easily?

                      Got my Micro all wet this evening at 18:25!!!!!!!What a wonderful
                      feeling to be on board after a long winter on the hard.Judging by the
                      way she dipped and rolled while I was on board,I would have to guess
                      that she is tickled pink at being back in her element.Were it not for
                      other obligations later this evening,I would have spent the night on
                      board!!!!!!!

                      Sure wish I coulda been there to help with the keel.......
                      Sincerely,
                      Peter Lenihan,going through something of a heat wave with temps in
                      the 29 to 30 degree celsius range,on the shores of the St.Lawrence....


                      --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                      > Paul,
                      >
                      > I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated,
                      > perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs
                      that
                      > require a leisure pace.
                      >
                      > I have run into a problem with drilling holes in my lead keel.
                      > The drill keeps grabbing and major pressure backwards is needed to
                      > extract the drill. I have tried oiling the tip, and drilling slowly
                      > but have broken $10 worth of drill bits so far. If no one has any
                      > better suggestions I will just pony up another $10. The good news
                      is
                      > that when they break I just hammer them home into the lead. No
                      > damage done other than financial.
                      >
                      > DAvid JOst
                      >
                      > "working rather than boatbuilding :-("
                      > > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60
                      miles
                      > to my
                      > > north, and his iminent launch!
                      > >
                      > > Paul Lefebvre
                    • Clyde S. Wisner
                      When you spread this stuff with a roller, you might try tipping with a dry foam brush, drag the brush across after you spread a couple of sq ft, no down
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 3, 2001
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                        When you spread this stuff with a roller, you might try "tipping" with a dry foam brush, drag the
                        brush across after you spread a couple of sq ft, no down presure. May eliminate orange peel. Clyde

                        ellengaest@... wrote:

                        > Hi Randy,
                        > Not too sure what you're after;"a smooth fiberglass surface" or "a
                        > paintable surface".If "paintable",then I would stop where you are and
                        > begin with the paint à la workboat finish.However,if it is the smooth
                        > fiberglass look you are seeking then I would proceed as follows:
                        > Finish sanding the second coat of epoxy.
                        > Get hold of Interlux 401/402(if I recall correctly!) Barrier
                        > coat.
                      • djost@ma.ultranet.com
                        No Peter, In my test run, the bronze nails bent too much prior to seating due to the antimony that was added to the casting. The casting is too hard to drive
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 3, 2001
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                          No Peter,
                          In my test run, the bronze nails bent too much prior to seating
                          due to the antimony that was added to the casting. The casting is too
                          hard to drive the nails, yet too soft for very sharp titanium drills.
                          I will try dipping a less sharp drill bit in kerosene (plenty of those
                          hurricane lamps in the garage) and try the other side this weekend.

                          David Jost
                          "Suffering from Micro envy, knock it off Peter! :-)"
                          >
                          > Got my Micro all wet this evening at 18:25!!!!!!!What a wonderful
                          > feeling to be on board after a long winter on the hard.Judging by the
                          > way she dipped and rolled while I was on board,I would have to guess
                          > that she is tickled pink at being back in her element.Were it not for
                          > other obligations later this evening,I would have spent the night on
                          > board!!!!!!!
                          >
                          > Sure wish I coulda been there to help with the keel.......
                          > Sincerely,
                          > Peter Lenihan,going through something of a heat wave with temps in
                          > the 29 to 30 degree celsius range,on the shores of the St.Lawrence....
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                          > > Paul,
                          > >
                          > > I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated,
                          > > perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs
                          > that
                          > > require a leisure pace.
                          > >
                          > > I have run into a problem with drilling holes in my lead keel.
                          > > The drill keeps grabbing and major pressure backwards is needed to
                          > > extract the drill. I have tried oiling the tip, and drilling slowly
                          > > but have broken $10 worth of drill bits so far. If no one has any
                          > > better suggestions I will just pony up another $10. The good news
                          > is
                          > > that when they break I just hammer them home into the lead. No
                          > > damage done other than financial.
                          > >
                          > > DAvid JOst
                          > >
                          > > "working rather than boatbuilding :-("
                          > > > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60
                          > miles
                          > > to my
                          > > > north, and his iminent launch!
                          > > >
                          > > > Paul Lefebvre
                        • Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr.
                          Dave, I acquired a drill press a couple years ago, with vastly variable speed, and owning it has allowed me to experiment drilling things I never would have
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 3, 2001
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                            Dave,
                            I acquired a drill press a couple years ago, with vastly variable speed,
                            and owning it has allowed me to experiment drilling things I never would
                            have tackled by hand before. Seems like the slower speeds work better with
                            metals; not as much torque when it grabs, as it inevitably does when you
                            don't have the thing perfectly clamped down in a proper vise; your keel
                            isn't moving but your arms surely are, same effect. I've only drilled
                            aluminum and some steel, not lead, so can't speak from firsthand experience
                            (yet!) but a slower drill speed is easy and cheap to experiment with. I have
                            an old Sears 3/8" variable-speed reversing drill I picked up cheap at a yard
                            sale, hardly ever use it now that I have a cordless, but the little knob on
                            the trigger that lets you set the max trigger depth/drill speed might be
                            just the kind of gadget you'd need for this. Just a thought.... If you want
                            to borrow it, meet me at Logan Wednesday, lunchtime ;-).... or I can Fed-ex
                            it up to you if you want it sooner!
                            I've got even more micro envy than you! At least you're working on yours,
                            I'm preparing for a 2-week business trip, and looking at yet more delays to
                            start construction.... But I do enjoy Peter's ravings about his sweet little
                            boat.

                            good luck!

                            Paul

                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: djost@... [mailto:djost@...]
                            > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:30 AM
                            > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [bolger] Re: Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                            >
                            >
                            > No Peter,
                            > In my test run, the bronze nails bent too much prior to seating
                            > due to the antimony that was added to the casting. The casting is too
                            > hard to drive the nails, yet too soft for very sharp titanium drills.
                            > I will try dipping a less sharp drill bit in kerosene (plenty of those
                            > hurricane lamps in the garage) and try the other side this weekend.
                            >
                            > David Jost
                            > "Suffering from Micro envy, knock it off Peter! :-)"
                            > >
                            > > Got my Micro all wet this evening at 18:25!!!!!!!What a wonderful
                            > > feeling to be on board after a long winter on the hard.Judging by the
                            > > way she dipped and rolled while I was on board,I would have to guess
                            > > that she is tickled pink at being back in her element.Were it not for
                            > > other obligations later this evening,I would have spent the night on
                            > > board!!!!!!!
                            > >
                            > > Sure wish I coulda been there to help with the keel.......
                            > > Sincerely,
                            > > Peter Lenihan,going through something of a heat wave with temps in
                            > > the 29 to 30 degree celsius range,on the shores of the St.Lawrence....
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                            > > > Paul,
                            > > >
                            > > > I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated,
                            > > > perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs
                            > > that
                            > > > require a leisure pace.
                            > > >
                            > > > I have run into a problem with drilling holes in my lead keel.
                            > > > The drill keeps grabbing and major pressure backwards is needed to
                            > > > extract the drill. I have tried oiling the tip, and drilling slowly
                            > > > but have broken $10 worth of drill bits so far. If no one has any
                            > > > better suggestions I will just pony up another $10. The good news
                            > > is
                            > > > that when they break I just hammer them home into the lead. No
                            > > > damage done other than financial.
                            > > >
                            > > > DAvid JOst
                            > > >
                            > > > "working rather than boatbuilding :-("
                            > > > > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60
                            > > miles
                            > > > to my
                            > > > > north, and his iminent launch!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Paul Lefebvre
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Bolger rules!!!
                            > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                            > - no flogging dead horses
                            > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                            > - stay on topic and punctuate
                            > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                            > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                            > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Jim Chamberlin RCSIS
                            Randy, This is the conclusion that I think most of us come to...decent finish and launch the thing. To satisfy that desire to put something on the boat with a
                            Message 13 of 27 , May 3, 2001
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                              Randy,

                              This is the conclusion that I think most of us come to...decent finish and
                              launch the thing.

                              To satisfy that desire to put something on the boat with a high quality
                              finish to it, try adding a few pieces of bright finished mahogany, oak, teak
                              (really expensive) etc. The gunwales and inwales of my first Pointy Skiff
                              are done in Philipine Mahogany. The hardwood looks good and so far has held
                              up great to dock banging, oar whacking, and little kids dragging things on
                              and off the boat.

                              Jim

                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: rrobar@... [mailto:rrobar@...]
                              > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 2:15 PM
                              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [bolger] Re: Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks for all the responses! I've decided to go with the looks-
                              > great-from-10-feet option: sand lightly, cover with paint, then push
                              > Micro into the water. Afterall, it's a sailboat, not a yacht.
                              >
                              > randy
                              > quickly turning lots of expensive wood and epoxy into dust outside
                              > Boston
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@y..., "Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr." <paul@w...> wrote:
                              > > I've been sitting on the sidelines on this one, but having just
                              > recently
                              > > sanded and varnished the fiberglass coating on my 4th cedar-strip
                              > canoe to
                              > > foot-away quality bright finish inside and out, perhaps I oughta
                              > toss in my
                              > > 2 cents worth, elaborating on Jamie's suggestions.
                              > > I do all my glass layup and subsequent coats in a single day -
                              > I put the
                              > > cloth on dry on bare wood, on an upside-down boat, wet it out and
                              > squeegee
                              > > off most of the resin with a very flexible plastic spatula (the
                              > ones sold by
                              > > West system, or for autobody work, are too stiff and will scrape
                              > out too
                              > > much resin! I prefer the plastic cake spatulas of the same
                              > rectangular
                              > > shape, sold under various names - I bought a bunch with 'frugal
                              > gourmet'
                              > > logos on them). This method takes alot of epoxy back out of the
                              > cloth in the
                              > > form of non-reusable foamy semi-kicked gunk, but saves so much
                              > sanding work
                              > > that I think it's worth the price.Once the resin is set up enough
                              > to be
                              > > firm, but still a bit tacky, roll, brush, or squeegee on a second
                              > coat to
                              > > fill the weave; a third coat for 6 oz and probably a 4th coat for
                              > anything
                              > > coarser, but on 4 oz. cloth 2 coats is just enough. You don't want
                              > to sand
                              > > through any cloth, it will seriously weaken the expensive sheath
                              > you went to
                              > > all the trouble to put on in the first place, so filling in the
                              > weave is
                              > > important; and if you leave it overnight and let the first layup
                              > coat harden
                              > > completely before recoating, you really should sand for good
                              > adhesion before
                              > > the second coat, or at least scrub with a scotchbrite and amonia to
                              > remove
                              > > the blush. Sanding after only 1 coat means you're weakening your
                              > cloth,
                              > > hence the long day and multiple coats to really do it most
                              > efficiently.
                              > > Presumably the blush 'floats' to the surface if you apply coats in
                              > > close-enough succession.
                              > > After going through this and applying 6 coats of Epifanes
                              > varnish, and
                              > > right up to delivering the canoe (it was a birthday gift to my
                              > brother), I
                              > > was swearing I'd never go through this again, at least to an
                              > unforgiving
                              > > varnish-perfect level of finish. Then we dropped it the Chesapeake
                              > on Easter
                              > > Sunday, and it all evaporated... I hadn't launched a boat since
                              > June of '95,
                              > > had forgotten what a sweet feeling it is - nothing comes close, and
                              > I feel
                              > > like a boatbuilder again. I'd post a photo but it's not a Bolger
                              > boat, and
                              > > I'll take the following cheap shot to help justify this post ;-):
                              > Now my
                              > > shop's empty and I'm free to start construction on my micro (sails
                              > have been
                              > > done for awhile), just as soon as I recover from Uncle Sam's rather
                              > vigorous
                              > > pat-down on April 15..... anyone paying attention to my ravings a
                              > couple
                              > > months ago already guessed I wouldn't make it to the Champlain
                              > messabout in
                              > > a micro this year, but I will bring something pretty that
                              > floats..... sorry
                              > > for the long post.
                              > >
                              > > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60 miles
                              > to my
                              > > north, and his iminent launch!
                              > >
                              > > Paul Lefebvre
                              >
                              >
                              > Bolger rules!!!
                              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                              > - no flogging dead horses
                              > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                              > - stay on topic and punctuate
                              > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                              > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                              > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • djost@ma.ultranet.com
                              Paul, I am sorry I can t meet you at Logan on Wed. My school superintendent would frown on me skipping out on my teaching responsibilies. (I have a concert
                              Message 14 of 27 , May 3, 2001
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                                Paul,
                                I am sorry I can't meet you at Logan on Wed. My school
                                superintendent would frown on me skipping out on my teaching
                                responsibilies. (I have a concert that night anyway). I have been
                                using the cordless and it is either slow or fast with no inbetween. I
                                am going to try the variable speed electric and pick up an handful of
                                real cheap bits and just go through them. If they break they will
                                become part of the boat. what the heck . . .

                                David Jost
                                "avoiding work again"

                                > to borrow it, meet me at Logan Wednesday, lunchtime ;-).... or I can Fed-ex
                                > it up to you if you want it sooner!
                                > I've got even more micro envy than you! At least you're working on yours,
                                > I'm preparing for a 2-week business trip, and looking at yet more delays to
                                > start construction.... But I do enjoy Peter's ravings about his sweet little
                                > boat.
                                >
                                > good luck!
                                >
                                > Paul
                                >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: djost@m... [mailto:djost@m...]
                                > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:30 AM
                                > > To: bolger@y...
                                > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > No Peter,
                                > > In my test run, the bronze nails bent too much prior to seating
                                > > due to the antimony that was added to the casting. The casting is too
                                > > hard to drive the nails, yet too soft for very sharp titanium drills.
                                > > I will try dipping a less sharp drill bit in kerosene (plenty of those
                                > > hurricane lamps in the garage) and try the other side this weekend.
                                > >
                                > > David Jost
                                > > "Suffering from Micro envy, knock it off Peter! :-)"
                                > > >
                                > > > Got my Micro all wet this evening at 18:25!!!!!!!What a wonderful
                                > > > feeling to be on board after a long winter on the hard.Judging by the
                                > > > way she dipped and rolled while I was on board,I would have to guess
                                > > > that she is tickled pink at being back in her element.Were it not for
                                > > > other obligations later this evening,I would have spent the night on
                                > > > board!!!!!!!
                                > > >
                                > > > Sure wish I coulda been there to help with the keel.......
                                > > > Sincerely,
                                > > > Peter Lenihan,going through something of a heat wave with temps in
                                > > > the 29 to 30 degree celsius range,on the shores of the St.Lawrence....
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                                > > > > Paul,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I have been doing keel work with the weather, as you stated,
                                > > > > perfect epoxying weather. It is actually a little warm for jobs
                                > > > that
                                > > > > require a leisure pace.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I have run into a problem with drilling holes in my lead keel.
                                > > > > The drill keeps grabbing and major pressure backwards is needed to
                                > > > > extract the drill. I have tried oiling the tip, and drilling slowly
                                > > > > but have broken $10 worth of drill bits so far. If no one has any
                                > > > > better suggestions I will just pony up another $10. The good news
                                > > > is
                                > > > > that when they break I just hammer them home into the lead. No
                                > > > > damage done other than financial.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > DAvid JOst
                                > > > >
                                > > > > "working rather than boatbuilding :-("
                                > > > > > Envious of Dave Jost up there in perfect epoxying weather, 60
                                > > > miles
                                > > > > to my
                                > > > > > north, and his iminent launch!
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Paul Lefebvre
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Bolger rules!!!
                                > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                                > > - no flogging dead horses
                                > > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                                > > - stay on topic and punctuate
                                > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                                > > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                                > > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                              • KF4call@aol.com
                                The Fall 2000 Epoxyworks , published by West, has an article titled Fiberglassing a Woodstrip Hull...Techniques for a Perfect Clear Finish . Covers all
                                Message 15 of 27 , May 4, 2001
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                                  The Fall 2000 "Epoxyworks", published by West, has an article titled
                                  "Fiberglassing a Woodstrip Hull...Techniques for a Perfect Clear
                                  Finish". Covers all sorts of things such as vaiations in technique depending
                                  on the coat. They recommend different approaches for first, second and third
                                  coats. The content is quite thorough and even goes into detail on the type
                                  of rags to use. There isn't a lot here on finishing, but I imagine, if ou
                                  can get it on smoother, the finishing should be less demanding.

                                  In our discussion, I haven't heard much on the use of scrapers...sharp
                                  blades held nearly vertical to the surface. Anyone using them? What happens
                                  if you hit the glass cloth with a scraper?

                                  Regards,
                                  Warren

                                  In a message dated 5/4/2001 6:53:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                  jorr@... writes:

                                  << > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Chuck Leinweber [mailto:chuck@...]
                                  > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 10:26 AM
                                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: RE: [bolger] Easiest way to get a smooth fiberglass surface?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Don's method is fine if you want a nice finish, but many don't. I go for
                                  > work boat finish. I give the cloth a second coat to fill the weave, then
                                  > Random orbital sand, and paint. Be sure to stand back 10 feet
                                  > when you show
                                  > it off. This method will get you in the water a lot faster.
                                  >
                                  > Chuck
                                  > >>
                                • Chuck Leinweber
                                  Hi, Warren: I use scrapers a lot, not just on boats. They work very well on epoxy/glass, with these caveats: Try to do the scraping on heavy areas before the
                                  Message 16 of 27 , May 4, 2001
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                                    Hi, Warren:

                                    I use scrapers a lot, not just on boats. They work very well on
                                    epoxy/glass, with these caveats: Try to do the scraping on heavy areas
                                    before the resin is completely cured, and use good steel, as they will get
                                    dull fast enough when you hit glass.

                                    Chuck


                                    In our discussion, I haven't heard much on the use of scrapers...sharp
                                    blades held nearly vertical to the surface. Anyone using them? What
                                    happens
                                    if you hit the glass cloth with a scraper?

                                    Regards,
                                    Warren
                                  • phillip_lea@yahoo.com
                                    Agree with Jim. I have used 100% acrylic satin house paint that can get scuffed off, but having a few varnished pieces (mast, tiller, etc.) sets off the whole
                                    Message 17 of 27 , May 4, 2001
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                                      Agree with Jim. I have used 100% acrylic satin house paint that can
                                      get scuffed off, but having a few varnished pieces (mast, tiller,
                                      etc.) sets off the whole boat -- scuffed paint doesn't look nearly so
                                      bad. Spar varnish over clear coat epoxy (System 3) is a rugged
                                      finish.

                                      Phil Lea

                                      --- In bolger@y..., "Jim Chamberlin RCSIS" <jchamberlin@r...> wrote:
                                      > To satisfy that desire to put something on the boat with a high
                                      quality
                                      > finish to it, try adding a few pieces of bright finished mahogany,
                                      oak, teak
                                      > (really expensive) etc. The gunwales and inwales of my first Pointy
                                      Skiff
                                      > are done in Philipine Mahogany.
                                    • j.c.ewing@home.com
                                      I ve been using pull-scrapers to remove old finish on the hull of my Tendercraft stripper skiff, Nandessa. The cloth beneath is probably only about 2-oz. but
                                      Message 18 of 27 , May 4, 2001
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                                        I've been using pull-scrapers to remove old finish on the hull of my
                                        Tendercraft stripper skiff, Nandessa. The cloth beneath is probably
                                        only about 2-oz. but I've found the scraper only grazes it, without
                                        noticeable damage.

                                        I'm not keen on chemical stripping and a pull-stripper alone had left
                                        patches of old varnish on the (somewhat rough) oaken outer stem and
                                        keel, skeg and rub strips. So today I used a heat gun along with the
                                        pull-scraper and everything came off beautifully. I also tried this
                                        technique on a spot where I'd been unable to sand or scrape old
                                        varnish off the clear-coat (but deteriorated) epoxy. It almost worked
                                        too well, the epoxy bubbling when it got too hot. But it almost makes
                                        me think about heat-stripping the old epoxy right off the 'glass for
                                        a nice, fresh base.

                                        John in Victoria


                                        --- In bolger@y..., KF4call@a... wrote:
                                        > In our discussion, I haven't heard much on the use of
                                        scrapers...sharp
                                        > blades held nearly vertical to the surface. Anyone using them?
                                        What happens
                                        > if you hit the glass cloth with a scraper?
                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        > Warren
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