Re: [Bulk] Re: [bolger] cedar paneling
- Nov 16, 2013 Expand MessagesView SourceChief,I'm always curious about trees, do you know what kind of cedar it is you are referring to here?That is really interesting about pine and Titebond II.Here in the land of Douglas fir, in the Pacific Northwest, we are seeing more and more pine. The nice Douglas fir wood came from old growth that is mostly gone now, and it takes that species a really long time to produce large trees with lots of clear heartwood. The pines in the south seem to grow faster, and so I think the pine tree farms there produce more wood per acre per year than the Douglas fir tree farms here do. So it seems likely we will be seeing more pine here as time moves on.When I grew up, pine was considered adequate for cheap disposable uses of wood. However I'm fond of pine and much of my furniture is made from pine. Part of the inside of the home I grew up in was paneled with tongue and grove pine. So I'm inclined to use pine, where it will work well.These days a lot of the "fir" here is actually hemlock, which I don't like as well as Douglass fir or pine.So its good to know you think well of pine for boats. I think I'd rather use high quality pine than trashy fir, especially if it isn't really fir in the first place. Also pine is lighter than fir, which is good for small boats you move around by hand.We have a lot of really damp cold weather here. If stuff in an unheated uninsulated shed gets really cold, and then a foggy drizzly warm front comes through, a layer of condensation will form on the cold surfaces inside the shed, and the tools tend to rust a bit from this.You would think that tools in sheaths would trap this moisture and rust worse than the exposed tools, but it doesn't work that way. I don't use rubber sheaths, they are either leather, fabric, or carpet and so are permeable to moisture and will dry out if the tool was wet when it was put into the sheath. The sheathed tools in my shed don't rust the way the exposed metal on other tools does.So whether the moisture condensing out on the boats is frozen or liquid, it seems like covering them with blankets would help protect the wood from picking up moisture from condensation when they are in storage.May your day be filled with clarity, grace, strength, insight, balance, cooperation, and warm laughter,Roger----- Original Message -----From: "Chief Redelk" <chiefredelk@...>To: <firstname.lastname@example.org>Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:45 AMSubject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [bolger] cedar paneling> I've cut a lot of Cedar trees.. If it lays on the ground for very long
> the soft parts rot away like a pine tree, pretty fast.. Allthat will
> be left is the heart and it does not rot fast.. There is notmuch of
> it but it makes good kindling like the pine heart. I would notbuild a
> boat out of Cedar UNLESS..It were cedar strips cut out of acedar
> board. ALSO.. IF I used cedar strips ( once they were used tobuild
> canoes ) I would make sure to cover it and keep water off thewood.
> Years ago cedar canoes were covered in Canvas and paint... SO..the
> short answer is. NO..I simply would NOT use this stuff...I don'tlike
> it any better than Luan..Luan that was decent and it did not check but
> Years ago I found some
> over the years Luan hasgotten so sorry it's almost usless... I did
> use some lately......PineWILL check every time..No exceptions.....
> Most woods WILL check if usedon a boat. The small cracks open the
> paint lets water seep under thepaint into the wood and the wood
> swells further cracking the paint andwater can soak into the wood
> causing rot..In winter the wet wood freezesand damages the boat even
> more... To stop Checking I laminate my woodwith a fabric and
> paint.....Titebond II to stop checking. I now use pine ply
> On a cheap boat I use
> plywood for all myboats..So far this has worked well stopping
> Checking on all woodincluding Luan....I apply TB2 to the new wood
> then coat that withExterior Latex house Paint so the two can cure as
> Apply TB2 with a brush and DO NOT miss one spot of new wood..Soak
> into cracks etc. It will heal and seal...IF you could find thevoids
> and fill them with this it will seal them as well. I have injectedit
> into voids by drilling a small hole and using a syringe andneedle...It takes a while to fill a void due to shrinkage..If you cut
> abigger hole you can pack it with wet saw dust and TB2. Eventually it
>will fill and works well. I tape over that with FB..
>expensive boat I would use Epoxy and fiberglass..
> For an
>will be12 feet long. It will be heavier than a Luan boat
> My next boat
> but it will betrailered. It will be built out of 1/4 Ext. Glue Pine
> Plywood and 3/8.All wood will be sealed with TB2 and painted over
> with Latex Paint..Itwill be stored dry out of the sun and it will
> last a very long time.There is a benefit to a sort of heavy boat. It
> will move through a tackbetter and it may sail better.. In water
> weight is not as important ( upto a point ) was it is to a man
> handling the boat on land..causing
> The problem with 3 ply Ext Glue Pine plywood is Moisture
> WRINKLES or big long strips of bubbles where the top coatbuckles due
> to a void beneath.. It looks ugly but if it's small andinside the
> hull it's seldom a real problem. Some of them open will crackand open
> and those I fix...The ones that do not open up I don't botherwith if
> they are small and inside the hull. When the boat is fabriccoated on
> the exterior I have never had the hull wrinkle. If not coatedwith
> fabric and the wood does wrinkly you can fix the wrinkle easy. Cutit
> out and glue in a strip or fill and epoxy and glass over.....
> After a while you will have found all the weak spots and
> them. In fact as my boats age they look better due to makingrepairs
> and adding more paint..In fact they are better..Skiff
> I wet sanded ( latex must be wet sanded ) and painted my old
> this year. She looks new is solid and better than the day shewas
> born..I scarphed the mast making it longer and went from a Spritsail
> to a Leg Of mutton..In fact during winter I cover them with
> All my boats are dry stored..
> blankets inside the shed somoisture don't form on them as Frost..
> Frost can form on things rain andsnow can't reach..
>boat.. Wooden boats can last
> Taking care of a boat is the life of a
> for a life time. I expect to die and leavesome nice boats behind..
> Old but nice..take care of them these boats will be alive when they
> If my grandsons
> die and none ofthem are made out of expensive wood. ONLY 1 has Marine
> Grade Plywood.That MG ply checked like crazy until I put fabric on
> it.. Good luck,Chief...
> On 11/14/13, Christopher C. Wetherill <
>> There are also the questions of what species the non-displayplies come
>> from and what glue was used. Most paneling consistsof a finish veneer
>> laid over a cheap core and a non-finish back skinwith interior grade
>> glue. I would not want to bet my life onpaneling.
>> On 11/14/2013 11:59 AM, Roger Padvorac
>>> ?checking if the wood plies are heartwood or
>>> A critical issue is
>>> sapwood. This couldvary from sheet to sheet, so people's experience
>>> with it couldvary.
>>> While the heartwood of the western red cedar is moreresistant to rot
>>> than the heartwood of Douglass fir, the sapwoodof western red cedar
>>> rots faster than the heartwood of Douglassfir.
>>> Confusing this situation is that while the western redcedar is in the
>>> cypress family, in the genus Thuja, and cedarsare in the pine family
>>> in the genus Cedrus.seems possible that the difference in rot resistance between
>>>sapwood and heartwood is a common issue, and with the general lowering
>>> of standards, that there could be more sapwood inplywood than there
>>> used to be. As a general rule of thumb, thesapwood is lighter in
>>> color than the heartwood.It seems likely the sapwood of western red cedar is so vulnerable to
>>> rot in part because it is so soft. While its hardwood ofwestern red
>>> cedar is also comparatively soft, it is alsosaturated with very toxic
>>> chemicals (unlike the sapwood), and sois very resistant to rot. These
>>> issues might affect other Thujaand Cedrus species.
>>> May your day be filled with clarity, grace,strength, insight,
>>> balance, cooperating, and warmlaughter,
>>> ----- Original
>>> *From:*href="mailto:chadnn@...">chadnn@... <mailto:chadnn@...>
>>> *To:*href="mailto:email@example.com">firstname.lastname@example.org <mailto:email@example.com>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday,November 14, 2013 5:53 AM
>>> *Subject:*[bolger] cedar paneling
>>>Has anyone use 8mm x 48" x 96" cedar paneling (see Home Depot) to
>>> build a boat?
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