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Re: [Bulk] Re: [bolger] cedar paneling

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  • Roger Padvorac
    Nov 16, 2013 Expand Messages
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      Chief,
      I'm always curious about trees, do you know what kind of cedar it is you are referring to here?
       
      That is really interesting about pine and Titebond II.
       
      Here in the land of Douglas fir, in the Pacific Northwest, we are seeing more and more pine. The nice Douglas fir wood came from old growth that is mostly gone now, and it takes that species a really long time to produce large trees with lots of clear heartwood. The pines in the south seem to grow faster, and so I think the pine tree farms there produce more wood per acre per year than the Douglas fir tree farms here do. So it seems likely we will be seeing more pine here as time moves on.
       
      When I grew up, pine was considered adequate for cheap disposable uses of wood. However I'm fond of pine and much of my furniture is made from pine. Part of the inside of the home I grew up in was paneled with tongue and grove pine. So I'm inclined to use pine, where it will work well.
       
      These days a lot of the "fir" here is actually hemlock, which I don't like as well as Douglass fir or pine.
       
      So its good to know you think well of pine for boats. I think I'd rather use high quality pine than trashy fir, especially if it isn't really fir in the first place. Also pine is lighter than fir, which is good for small boats you move around by hand.
       
      We have a lot of really damp cold weather here. If stuff in an unheated uninsulated shed gets really cold, and then a foggy drizzly warm front comes through, a layer of condensation will form on the cold surfaces inside the shed, and the tools tend to rust a bit from this.
       
      You would think that tools in sheaths would trap this moisture and rust worse than the exposed tools, but it doesn't work that way. I don't use rubber sheaths, they are either leather, fabric, or carpet and so are permeable to moisture and will dry out if the tool was wet when it was put into the sheath. The sheathed tools in my shed don't rust the way the exposed metal on other tools does.
       
      So whether the moisture condensing out on the boats is frozen or liquid, it seems like covering them with blankets would help protect the wood from picking up moisture from condensation when they are in storage.
       
      May your day be filled with clarity, grace, strength, insight, balance, cooperation, and warm laughter,
      Roger
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Chief Redelk" <chiefredelk@...>
      Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:45 AM
      Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [bolger] cedar paneling

      > I've cut a lot of Cedar trees.. If it lays on the ground for very long
      > the soft parts rot away like a pine tree, pretty fast.. All
      that will
      > be left is the heart and it does not rot fast.. There is not
      much of
      > it but it makes good kindling like the pine heart. I would not
      build a
      > boat out of Cedar UNLESS..It were cedar strips cut out of a
      cedar
      > board. ALSO.. IF I used cedar strips ( once they were used to
      build
      > canoes ) I would make sure to cover it and keep water off the
      wood.
      > Years ago cedar canoes were covered in Canvas and paint... SO..
      the
      > short answer is. NO..I simply would NOT use this stuff...I don't
      like
      > it any better than Luan..
      >
      > Years ago I found some
      Luan that was decent and it did not check but
      > over the years Luan has
      gotten so sorry it's almost usless... I did
      > use some lately......Pine
      WILL check every time..No exceptions.....
      > Most woods WILL check if used
      on a boat. The small cracks open the
      > paint lets water seep under the
      paint into the wood and the wood
      > swells further cracking the paint and
      water can soak into the wood
      > causing rot..In winter the wet wood freezes
      and damages the boat even
      > more... To stop Checking I laminate my wood
      with a fabric and
      > paint.....
      >
      > On a cheap boat I use
      Titebond II to stop checking. I now use pine ply
      > plywood for all my
      boats..So far this has worked well stopping
      > Checking on all wood
      including Luan....I apply TB2 to the new wood
      > then coat that with
      Exterior Latex house Paint so the two can cure as
      > one....
      >
      > Apply TB2 with a brush and DO NOT miss one spot of new wood..Soak
      it
      > into cracks etc. It will heal and seal...IF you could find the
      voids
      > and fill them with this it will seal them as well. I have injected
      it
      > into voids by drilling a small hole and using a syringe and
      >
      needle...It takes a while to fill a void due to shrinkage..If you cut
      > a
      bigger hole you can pack it with wet saw dust and TB2. Eventually it
      >
      will fill and works well. I tape over that with FB..
      >
      > For an
      expensive boat I would use Epoxy and fiberglass..
      >
      > My next boat
      will be12 feet long. It will be heavier than a Luan boat
      > but it will be
      trailered. It will be built out of 1/4 Ext. Glue Pine
      > Plywood and 3/8.
      All wood will be sealed with TB2 and painted over
      > with Latex Paint..It
      will be stored dry out of the sun and it will
      > last a very long time.
      There is a benefit to a sort of heavy boat. It
      > will move through a tack
      better and it may sail better.. In water
      > weight is not as important ( up
      to a point ) was it is to a man
      > handling the boat on land..
      >
      > The problem with 3 ply Ext Glue Pine plywood is Moisture
      causing
      > WRINKLES or big long strips of bubbles where the top coat
      buckles due
      > to a void beneath.. It looks ugly but if it's small and
      inside the
      > hull it's seldom a real problem. Some of them open will crack
      and open
      > and those I fix...The ones that do not open up I don't bother
      with if
      > they are small and inside the hull. When the boat is fabric
      coated on
      > the exterior I have never had the hull wrinkle. If not coated
      with
      > fabric and the wood does wrinkly you can fix the wrinkle easy. Cut
      it
      > out and glue in a strip or fill and epoxy and glass over....
      .
      >
      > After a while you will have found all the weak spots and
      repaired
      > them. In fact as my boats age they look better due to making
      repairs
      > and adding more paint..In fact they are better..
      >
      > I wet sanded ( latex must be wet sanded ) and painted my old
      Skiff
      > this year. She looks new is solid and better than the day she
      was
      > born..I scarphed the mast making it longer and went from a Sprit
      sail
      > to a Leg Of mutton..
      >
      > All my boats are dry stored..
      In fact during winter I cover them with
      > blankets inside the shed so
      moisture don't form on them as Frost..
      > Frost can form on things rain and
      snow can't reach..
      >
      > Taking care of a boat is the life of a
      boat.. Wooden boats can last
      > for a life time. I expect to die and leave
      some nice boats behind..
      > Old but nice..
      >
      > If my grandsons
      take care of them these boats will be alive when they
      > die and none of
      them are made out of expensive wood. ONLY 1 has Marine
      > Grade Plywood.
      That MG ply checked like crazy until I put fabric on
      > it.. Good luck,
      Chief...
      >
      > On 11/14/13, Christopher C. Wetherill <
      href="mailto:wetherillc@...">wetherillc@...> wrote:
      >> There are also the questions of what species the non-display
      plies come
      >> from and what glue was used.  Most paneling consists
      of a finish veneer
      >> laid over a cheap core and a non-finish back skin
      with interior grade
      >> glue.  I would not want to bet my life on
      paneling.
      >>
      >> V/R
      >>
      Chris
      >>
      >>
      >> On 11/14/2013 11:59 AM, Roger Padvorac
      wrote:
      >>> ?
      >>>
      >>> A critical issue is
      checking if the wood plies are heartwood or
      >>> sapwood. This could
      vary from sheet to sheet, so people's experience
      >>> with it could
      vary.
      >>> While the heartwood of the western red cedar is more
      resistant to rot
      >>> than the heartwood of Douglass fir, the sapwood
      of western red cedar
      >>> rots faster than the heartwood of Douglass
      fir.
      >>> Confusing this situation is that while the western red
      cedar is in the
      >>> cypress family, in the genus Thuja, and cedars
      are in the pine family
      >>> in the genus Cedrus.
      >>> It
      seems possible that the difference in rot resistance between
      >>>
      sapwood and heartwood is a common issue, and with the general lowering
      >>> of standards, that there could be more sapwood in
      plywood than there
      >>> used to be. As a general rule of thumb, the
      sapwood is lighter in
      >>> color than the heartwood.
      >>>
      It seems likely the sapwood of western red cedar is so vulnerable to
      >>> rot in part because it is so soft. While its hardwood of
      western red
      >>> cedar is also comparatively soft, it is also
      saturated with very toxic
      >>> chemicals (unlike the sapwood), and so
      is very resistant to rot. These
      >>> issues might affect other Thuja
      and Cedrus species.
      >>> May your day be filled with clarity, grace,
      strength, insight,
      >>> balance, cooperating, and warm
      laughter,
      >>>
      Roger
      >>>
      >>>     ----- Original
      Message -----
      >>>     *From:*
      href="mailto:chadnn@...">chadnn@... <mailto:chadnn@...>
      >>>     *To:*
      href="mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com">bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com>
      >>>     *Sent:* Thursday,
      November 14, 2013 5:53 AM
      >>>     *Subject:*
      [bolger] cedar paneling
      >>>
      >>>    
      Has anyone use 8mm x 48" x 96"  cedar paneling (see Home Depot) to
      >>>     build a boat
      ?
      >>>
      >>>    
      Thanks
      >>>
      >>>    
      _,_.___
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
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