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  • Nancy Nicholson
    Hi, I have just bought the book of bobbin lace stitche by Bridget Cook and Geraldine Stott. She mentions using Barbours No 50 linen which I cant find. Would
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 1, 2007
      Hi,

      I have just bought the book of bobbin lace stitche by Bridget Cook and
      Geraldine Stott. She mentions using Barbours No 50 linen which I cant
      find. Would anybodys No 50 linen do? Very new to lace making so dont
      have a clue about threads at all.

      Nancy
    • Brenda Paternoster
      Hi Nancy I measured Barbour s 50/3 as 20 wraps/cm. The nearest to that is Bockens 40/3 or Pella 50/3 both of which are 20 wraps/cm. Bockens 50/3 is 21
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 1, 2007
        Hi Nancy

        I measured Barbour's 50/3 as 20 wraps/cm. The nearest to that is
        Bockens 40/3 or Pella 50/3 both of which are 20 wraps/cm. Bockens 50/3
        is 21 wraps/cm so very marginally finer.

        Don't confuse Bockens 50/3 with Bockens 50/2 which measured 24
        wraps/cm; noticeably finer.
        Bouc, C&F Fresia and Campbell linens are all 2 ply. Goldschild do a
        50/3 but that came out finer too, 24 wraps/cm.

        Have a look at
        http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/lace/threadsize/threadsize.html

        Brenda

        On 1 Dec 2007, at 18:14, Nancy Nicholson wrote:

        > I have just bought the book of bobbin lace stitche by Bridget Cook and
        > Geraldine Stott. She mentions using Barbours No 50 linen which I cant
        > find. Would anybodys No 50 linen do? Very new to lace making so dont
        > have a clue about threads at all.
        >
        >

        Brenda in Allhallows, Kent
        http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html
      • Nancy Nicholson
        Hi Brenda, Thank you for that - I shall now go and look for Bockens 40/3 as I think I have seen that name before. I have previously glanced at your sight
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 2, 2007
          Hi Brenda,

          Thank you for that - I shall now go and look for Bockens 40/3 as I think I have seen that name before.

          I have previously glanced at your sight before - mainly for lace suppliers - but I didnt realise what a wealth of information is on the page. Thank you very much on behalf of all lacemakers (I'm sure).

          I think I will also be getting your book about threads as I have no doubt that I will have these problems again.

          Nancy


          To: bobbinlace@yahoogroups.comFrom: paternoster@...: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 22:48:55 +0000Subject: Re: [bobbinlace] Thread




          Hi NancyI measured Barbour's 50/3 as 20 wraps/cm. The nearest to that is Bockens 40/3 or Pella 50/3 both of which are 20 wraps/cm. Bockens 50/3 is 21 wraps/cm so very marginally finer.Don't confuse Bockens 50/3 with Bockens 50/2 which measured 24 wraps/cm; noticeably finer.Bouc, C&F Fresia and Campbell linens are all 2 ply. Goldschild do a 50/3 but that came out finer too, 24 wraps/cm.Have a look athttp://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/lace/threadsize/threadsize.htmlBrendaOn 1 Dec 2007, at 18:14, Nancy Nicholson wrote:> I have just bought the book of bobbin lace stitche by Bridget Cook and> Geraldine Stott. She mentions using Barbours No 50 linen which I cant> find. Would anybodys No 50 linen do? Very new to lace making so dont> have a clue about threads at all.>>Brenda in Allhallows, Kenthttp://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html






          _________________________________________________________________
          The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live Hotmail
          http://www.newhotmail.co.uk

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Zelda Martin
          I have a pattern that calls for 8/2 Tencel thread. What thread can I substitute/   Thanks in advance. Zelda [Non-text portions of this message have been
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 10, 2012
            I have a pattern that calls for 8/2 Tencel thread. What thread can I substitute/
             
            Thanks in advance.
            Zelda

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lorelei Halley
            Zelda http://halcyonyarn.com/yarnbyfiber/rayontencelyarn.html See bottom of page. Lorelei [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 10, 2012
              Zelda
              http://halcyonyarn.com/yarnbyfiber/rayontencelyarn.html See bottom of page.
              Lorelei

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Brenda Paternoster
              From Wikipaedia: Lyocell is a regenerated cellulose fiber made from dissolving pulp (bleached wood pulp). It was first manufactured in 1987 by Courtaulds
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 11, 2012
                From Wikipaedia:

                "Lyocell is a regenerated cellulose fiber made from dissolving pulp (bleached wood pulp). It was first manufactured in 1987 by Courtaulds Fibres UK at their pilot plant S25. As of 2010 it is manufactured by Lenzing AG of Lenzing, Austria, under the brand name "Lyocell by Lenzing", and under the brand name Tencel by the Tencel group, now owned by Lenzing AG."

                There is nothing on the Lenzing website
                about retail threads or 8/2, but I think that this is probably what you are looking for:
                http://www.camillavalleyfarm.com/knit/tencel.htm
                or
                http://www.yarn.com/webs-weaving-spinning-weaving-yarns-valley-yarns/webs-weaving-yarns-valley-yarns-82-tencel/
                or in UK from Handweavers Studio
                www.handweavers.co.uk/shop/tencel_bamboo_raychen.pdf

                From the Handweavers Studio info I see that 2/8 means 2/8Ne which = the English cotton count (cc) which means that it should be about the same thickness as a Perle 8, though it's one of the new generation of rayons rather than cotton. I will guess that it's spun from cut filaments (in the same way as cotton) rather than continuous filament like the rayon embroidery threads.

                Brenda

                On 10 Feb 2012, at 19:26, Zelda Martin wrote:

                > I have a pattern that calls for 8/2 Tencel thread. What thread can I substitute/
                >

                Brenda in Allhallows
                www.brendapaternoster.co.uk
              • Zelda Martin
                Thank you so much for all the wonderful info. Zelda ________________________________ From: Brenda Paternoster To:
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 11, 2012
                  Thank you so much for all the wonderful info. Zelda



                  ________________________________
                  From: Brenda Paternoster <paternoster@...>
                  To: bobbinlace@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 4:56 AM
                  Subject: Re: [bobbinlace] Thread



                   

                  From Wikipaedia:

                  "Lyocell is a regenerated cellulose fiber made from dissolving pulp (bleached wood pulp). It was first manufactured in 1987 by Courtaulds Fibres UK at their pilot plant S25. As of 2010 it is manufactured by Lenzing AG of Lenzing, Austria, under the brand name "Lyocell by Lenzing", and under the brand name Tencel by the Tencel group, now owned by Lenzing AG."

                  There is nothing on the Lenzing website
                  about retail threads or 8/2, but I think that this is probably what you are looking for:
                  http://www.camillavalleyfarm.com/knit/tencel.htm
                  or
                  http://www.yarn.com/webs-weaving-spinning-weaving-yarns-valley-yarns/webs-weaving-yarns-valley-yarns-82-tencel/
                  or in UK from Handweavers Studio
                  www.handweavers.co.uk/shop/tencel_bamboo_raychen.pdf

                  From the Handweavers Studio info I see that 2/8 means 2/8Ne which = the English cotton count (cc) which means that it should be about the same thickness as a Perle 8, though it's one of the new generation of rayons rather than cotton. I will guess that it's spun from cut filaments (in the same way as cotton) rather than continuous filament like the rayon embroidery threads.

                  Brenda

                  On 10 Feb 2012, at 19:26, Zelda Martin wrote:

                  > I have a pattern that calls for 8/2 Tencel thread. What thread can I substitute/
                  >

                  Brenda in Allhallows
                  www.brendapaternoster.co.uk




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • suebabbs@comcast.net
                  I have dyed tencel thread and used it to make lace.  It worked up very nicely, and has survived being on a jacket (also made of tencel) which I have worn
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 11, 2012
                    I have dyed tencel thread and used it to make lace.  It worked up very nicely, and has survived being on a jacket (also made of tencel) which I have worn frequently and washed in the machine.

                    Sue




                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Zelda Martin" <zldmrtn@...>
                    To: bobbinlace@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 7:02:27 AM
                    Subject: Re: [bobbinlace] Thread

                     




                    Thank you so much for all the wonderful info. Zelda

                    ________________________________
                    From: Brenda Paternoster < paternoster@... >
                    To: bobbinlace@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 4:56 AM
                    Subject: Re: [bobbinlace] Thread


                     

                    From Wikipaedia:

                    "Lyocell is a regenerated cellulose fiber made from dissolving pulp (bleached wood pulp). It was first manufactured in 1987 by Courtaulds Fibres UK at their pilot plant S25. As of 2010 it is manufactured by Lenzing AG of Lenzing, Austria, under the brand name "Lyocell by Lenzing", and under the brand name Tencel by the Tencel group, now owned by Lenzing AG."

                    There is nothing on the Lenzing website
                    about retail threads or 8/2, but I think that this is probably what you are looking for:
                    http://www.camillavalleyfarm.com/knit/tencel.htm
                    or
                    http://www.yarn.com/webs-weaving-spinning-weaving-yarns-valley-yarns/webs-weaving-yarns-valley-yarns-82-tencel/
                    or in UK from Handweavers Studio
                    www.handweavers.co.uk/shop/tencel_bamboo_raychen.pdf

                    From the Handweavers Studio info I see that 2/8 means 2/8Ne which = the English cotton count (cc) which means that it should be about the same thickness as a Perle 8, though it's one of the new generation of rayons rather than cotton. I will guess that it's spun from cut filaments (in the same way as cotton) rather than continuous filament like the rayon embroidery threads.

                    Brenda

                    On 10 Feb 2012, at 19:26, Zelda Martin wrote:

                    > I have a pattern that calls for 8/2 Tencel thread. What thread can I substitute/
                    >

                    Brenda in Allhallows
                    www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Zelda Martin
                    How does one determine the amount of thread needed for a project? Thanks Zelda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 20, 2012
                      How does one determine the amount of thread needed for a project?
                      Thanks Zelda

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sue Babbs
                      I know this question has been asked and answered before, and not having enough time to write a comprehensive answer, I searched Arachne’s archives and came
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 20, 2012
                        I know this question has been asked and answered before, and not having enough time to write a comprehensive answer, I searched Arachne’s archives and came up with the following:

                        Short answer from Beth Marshall:

                        There's no definitive method for working out how much thread a pattern will take - it depends on the stitches being used (passive threads travel further in a half stitch motif than in a cloth stitch one, for instance), and whether the workers stay the same throughout or keep "swapping" to passives.


                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Considerably longer answer from Tamara Duvall:
                        Winding too much is preferable to running short an inch before the end... :)

                        This said, you don't want to end up with *way* too much, either -- it's a waste of resources (though there are always those small projects where you can get rid of the excess, "profitably", instead of discarding it)

                        Hopefully, your pattern/s will have come equipped with a diagram; look at it closely (blow it up, if necessary), and try following the paths of the various threads. You'll estimate the amount of thread needed on the basis of the pair's *function*.

                        While areas of half-stitch are a bit of a "wild card" in general, the "rule" is this: THE PAIRS WHICH MOVE LATERALLY USE MORE THREAD THAN THOSE WHICH MOVE VERTICALLY. Sorry for the shouting :)

                        So.

                        A straight (cloth stitch) passive in the footside will need only a little bit more (plus the "leash" on the bobbin; that's a "given" in all situations) than its "real length" on the pricking; if your project is 10" long, wind 11"+"leash" per bobbin, and you're home dry... Unless you break the thread and need to "patch" it :) Add at least 4" for breakage. Add another 4" for finishing, if you're going to use a needle-woven method; that and the 4-6" of the "leash" will give you enough "room to maneuver". Since you're a novice at BL, you might want to allow for *two* breaks... :) A *twisted* passive in the same position will need a bit more thread -- each twist takes up some; say pricking length and a quarter per bobbin.

                        A straight passive *in a fan* will need more thread than a straight passive in the foot because it doesn't travel in a straight line; going around in circles (even if only half) is more thread-consuming (a twisted passive in a fan will use even more). If you're *really* "anal-retentive" (or on a very short string, financially), notice that the fan passives on the outer edges use more thread than those on the inside -- the inside ones make less of a detour than the outer ones. Still, even for the outer fan passives you don't need more than length and a half on a longer project (twice, maximum, on a short -- bookmark type -- one). Or, you can *measure* the path of the outer passive on a single fan, add about 1/8" (for safety), multiply by the number of repeats, and add the "safeguards" (that's what I used to do, early on)

                        Pairs which make honeycombs should be considered as twisted passives -- they travel down in an almost straight line, but with a few more twists on the way. Pairs which make rose ground will differ (depending on the particular "rose" used) as will the ones used for spiders (the bigger the spider, the longer the thread) but, in general, twice the length of the pricking or a bit less (plus all the "safeguards" - leash, breakage, finishing) ought to be sufficient.

                        The real "thread gluttons" are the *workers*... If you can, on your diagram, isolate the worker pair (say, for the fan, or for the cloth/half stitch motifs within), wind 4 times the length of the pricking for that pair, and expect to run short... :) As you progress in your BL, you'll learn that it's possible to swap an "exhausted" worker bobbin for an overwound passive one (one at a time, please <g>), to make all of them reach the end of a project with no more than 6-12" of the thread left.

                        Another "thread glutton" is the weaver of tallies; every time it goes to work, you have to figure 6" of thread *minimum* (more, most often). It's easy to "twiddle" workers in leaf-shaped tallies, which start at a point; somewhat more difficult in square ones.

                        It's relatively easy to estimate how much thread is needed if you're making something in Torchon, where the individual pair paths are fairly obvious. It gets progressively worse as you move to more complex laces (though some are still more "bitchy" than others). Eventually, you'll learn to overwind by just a bit, and that little bit will no longer bother you... :)



                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        I hope these answers help!

                        Sue

                        suebabbs@...

                        From: Zelda Martin
                        Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:42 PM
                        To: bobbinlace@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [bobbinlace] Thread


                        How does one determine the amount of thread needed for a project?
                        Thanks Zelda





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Stephanie
                        My solution: I take at least one meter for every bobbin, no matter how short the lacepeace will be!! When I can see there must be more thread I take 2 or 3
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 20, 2012
                          My solution: I take at least one meter for every bobbin, no matter how
                          short the lacepeace will be!! When I can see there must be more thread
                          I take 2 or 3 meters per bobbin ....
                          I'd rather have too much thread than come short!! Workers always much
                          more than hanging pairs :-))
                          Stephanie


                          Op 21 feb 2012, om 00:38 heeft Sue Babbs het volgende geschreven:

                          > I know this question has been asked and answered before, and not
                          > having enough time to write a comprehensive answer, I searched
                          > Arachne�s archives and came up with the following:
                          >
                          > Short answer from Beth Marshall:
                          >
                          > There's no definitive method for working out how much thread a
                          > pattern will take - it depends on the stitches being used (passive
                          > threads travel further in a half stitch motif than in a cloth stitch
                          > one, for instance), and whether the workers stay the same throughout
                          > or keep "swapping" to passives.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • mavis williamson
                          For workers you will usually need 3-4 times the finished length of the lace in bobbin thread for Torchon or Bucks. Tape lace is trickier since it tend to wind
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 21, 2012
                            For workers you will usually need 3-4 times the finished length of the lace
                            in bobbin thread for Torchon or Bucks. Tape lace is trickier since it tend
                            to wind back and forth. Hope this helps.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • bew1312
                            Could someone please explain thread sizes to me. At the moment I am using Bockens linen 40/2. I would like to use a slightly finer cotton thread but haven t a
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 17, 2016

                              Could someone please explain thread sizes to me. At the moment I am using Bockens linen 40/2. I would like to use a slightly finer cotton thread but haven't a clue what to order without actually seeing it and as I have to order online, this is not possible. Thanks. Bernice.

                            • retpolserger
                              Bernice, I ll try to help. With Bockens linen like you have, the higher number, the finer the thread. I have used Bockens 20 as gimp, when working with 80
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 17, 2016
                                Bernice,

                                I'll try to help.  With Bockens linen like you have, the higher number, the finer the thread.  I have used Bockens 20 as  gimp, when working with  80 or 100. 

                                With cotton, which I've not used as much, it works the same--with what I've used.  I've used DMC Cordonnet, and perle cotton.  the higher the number, the finer the thread. 

                                I don't know what you are making, but a lot of the items I've made I've used 60 linen and up, usually 80 or 100. 

                                Hope that helps.

                                Laura in Wyoming
                              • Brenda Paternoster
                                Hi Bernice ... Far to much to explain in just one email! It needs a whole book to go through it properly. Beckons, like most linen threads is measured by the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 18, 2016
                                  Hi Bernice

                                  Could someone please explain thread sizes to me. At the moment I am using Bockens linen 40/2. I would like to use a slightly finer cotton thread but haven't a clue what to order without actually seeing it and as I have to order online, this is not possible.


                                  Far to much to explain in just one email!  It needs a whole book to go through it properly.

                                  Beckons, like most linen threads is measured by the English Linen number (NeL) which is the number of 300 yard hanks produced from 1 pound of fibres.  Most cottons are measured by the English cotton count (CC or NeC) which is the number of 840 yard hanks obtained from 1 pound of fibres.  So the size numbers are different but in both cases the higher the number the finer the thread. 

                                  To add to that there are various other systems in use - ticket size, metric number, dTex etc.  Also you need to consider the number of plies in the thread - a 2 ply thread is only ⅔ the thickness of the same size number of a thread with three plies or half the thickness of the same size number with 4 plies.

                                  Using the wrapping method of comparing threads  (at my tension)
                                  Bockens 40/2 measures 23 wraps/cm.  Cotton threads of the same thickness include DMC Cordonnet 50 (6-ply) Coats Lace 30 (3-ply) and Presencia Perle 16 (2-ply)

                                  How much finer do you want to go?  The chart on the web page shown above will show you the sort of wraps/cm size you need but all the info about individual threads is in my book Threads for Lace.


                                  Brenda in Allhallows
                                  paternoster@...
                                  www.brendapaternoster.co.uk






                                • bew1312
                                  Thank you Laura and Brenda. The clouds are parting and I m beginning to see the light. I am teaching myself as home with books because there is absolutely
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 20, 2016
                                    Thank you Laura and Brenda. The clouds are parting and I'm beginning to see the light. I am teaching myself as home with books because there is absolutely nowhere near Liverpool to learn bobbin lace with a teacher. The nearest I've come to my queries about lessons is to be asked "Do you mean how to learn to tie your shoelaces?" :) Bernice
                                  • Sue Babbs
                                    Have you contacted The Lace Guild to see if there is a lace tutor or group near you? https://www.laceguild.org/guild/contact.html They keep a list of teachers
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 20, 2016
                                      Have you contacted The Lace Guild to see if there is a lace tutor or group near you?  https://www.laceguild.org/guild/contact.html
                                      They keep a list of teachers in the UK.
                                       
                                      I no longer live in the UK, but I know there is a group that meets in Helsby which is actually quite close to Liverpool, if you have a car. If not there is a train from Lime Street.  They seem to meet monthly: http://www.nc-lacemakers.co.uk/styled-5/meetings.html
                                       
                                      Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 8:25 AM
                                      Subject: [bobbinlace] Re: Thread
                                       
                                       

                                      Thank you Laura and Brenda. The clouds are parting and I'm beginning to see the light. I am teaching myself as home with books because there is absolutely nowhere near Liverpool to learn bobbin lace with a teacher. The nearest I've come to my queries about lessons is to be asked "Do you mean how to learn to tie your shoelaces?" :) Bernice

                                    • Brenda Paternoster
                                      Hi Bernice. Have you contacted The Lace Guild to ask if there are any lace teachers from Liverpool in their list? https://www.laceguild.org/
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 20, 2016
                                        Hi Bernice.

                                        Have you contacted The Lace Guild to ask if there are any lace teachers from Liverpool in their list?

                                        Brenda

                                         I am teaching myself as home with books because there is absolutely nowhere near Liverpool to learn bobbin lace with a teacher. 

                                        Brenda in Allhallows
                                        paternoster@...
                                        www.brendapaternoster.co.uk






                                      • emerlute
                                        If you have problems finding a teacher, Bernice, just stick with it. I taught myself out of books with no teacher available, and I now travel across several
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 21, 2016
                                          If you have problems finding a teacher, Bernice, just stick with it.  I taught myself out of books with no teacher available, and I now travel across several states doing historical demonstrations of lacemaking.  I've also worked my way up to doing Chantilly with black silk.  Some day I'll have time to post pix in the folders. :)  Good luck and stick with it!

                                          cheers,
                                          'Lute~
                                        • bew1312
                                          Thank you for the encouragement. So far it s going really well and I ve done some really pretty edgings. I now understand the patterns without having to refer
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 22, 2016
                                            Thank you for the encouragement. So far it's going really well and I've done some really pretty edgings. I now understand the patterns without having to refer to the instructions as often. The 'thing' with the threads is really the only hiccup I've had. Bernice
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