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Professional Licensing

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  • pvanderw@optonline.net
    Well, I must say that I am surprised. I thought that the recent issue of Woodenboat would cause a breakout of Big Brother Hysteria on this list, but there has
    Message 1 of 22 , May 1, 2001
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      Well, I must say that I am surprised. I thought that the recent issue
      of Woodenboat would cause a breakout of Big Brother Hysteria on this
      list, but there has been nary a mention.

      For those who don't see the magazine, let me summarize. In the US
      (and I suppose most other highly developed countries), anyone wanting
      to sell something that is big, complicated, expensive and a potential
      hazard to health and welfare must have the plans approved by a
      licensed professional engineer. This certainly includes cars, big
      buildings (not ordinary 1-family homes, though), airplanes, power
      plants, etc. It means big ships, but up to now, not yachts. Depending
      on cases, the requirement is either legal (meaning the gov't requires
      it) or practical (meaning the insurance co. requirest it).

      The requirement is not quite as onerous for a large corporation as it
      might seem because they can have one PE (professional engineer) put
      his neck on the line for the work of an army of subordinates.

      I am not quite sure what/who motivated it, but there is a movement
      among the several states to require a professional engineer to
      approve the plans of yachts. To actually get a license requires
      passing two tests - one basically at the end of schooling when you
      get your engineering degree, and one after the end of several years
      of apprenticeship.

      There are two big questions about the application to yacht design.
      The first is whether the tests, which have been developed by the big
      ship design people, are appropriate. I wish the article had gone into
      this a little more, and explained why it is apparently not in the
      cards to come up with a more appropriate test.

      The second is whether the PE status is necessary at all. Very few of
      the big name designers are engineers and I would guess about half
      don't have very much relevant formal education. Among the not-haves
      are Bolger (history major)and Olin Stephens (1 year MIT). There are
      several well-known designers who are grads of UMich's naval
      architecture program who have never taken the exams. I think Jay
      Paris, Dave Gerr. Joel White was an NA from MIT. Bolger has gone
      political and is fighting the trend.

      As of right now, it may be illegal to build and sell a canoe in the
      state of Connecticut with out approval from a PE on the plans. There
      are serious matters of inter-state law here.

      Peter
    • Michael B. Holt
      ... Here we go again .... Which edition was that? I didn t buy the last one -- May? -- because I didn t see any articles of interest. Please note that
      Message 2 of 22 , May 1, 2001
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        pvanderw@... wrote:
        >
        > Well, I must say that I am surprised. I thought that the recent issue
        > of Woodenboat would cause a breakout of Big Brother Hysteria on this
        > list, but there has been nary a mention.

        Here we go again ....

        Which edition was that? I didn't buy the last one -- May? -- because
        I didn't see any articles of interest.

        Please note that airplane plans do not need the approval of
        a PE. Airplanes need to have the actual construction approved
        by the FAA, however, which I hope does not give anyone inside
        the Beltway any bright ideas.

        We Yanks might do to have a look at the EU regs for
        homebuilt boats, I suspect.



        Mike
      • mike goodwin
        All I can say is , DAMN LAWYERS , none of this shit is needed . Personal responsibility is the problem , they are trying to legislate against stupidity . I
        Message 3 of 22 , May 1, 2001
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          All I can say is , " DAMN LAWYERS " , none of this shit is needed .
          Personal responsibility is the problem , they are trying to legislate against
          stupidity . I mean look at the whole thing over child seats , not a single
          baby boomer ever rode in a child seat and we all made it to middle age . So
          some knucklehead parent doesn't buckle up his/her kid and does a head on
          because they were talking to some other idiot on their cell phone , too bad .
          Natural selection , survival of the fittest , the world's too populated
          already .
          I say let 'em ride motorcycles without a helmet .
          If you are in an accident and are not wearing your seatbelt , no problem , we
          just wont RUSH you to the hospital cause you obviously want to die and the
          EMT's are just honoring your wish .

          All any college degree is , is the ability to ingest , digest and regurgitate
          in a prescribed manner acceptable to the University .In most cases your
          haven't got to know shit or ever have an original thought , in fact that is
          frowned upon in many schools " stay inside the box " .
          That is why the American education system sucks , the teachers are, for the
          most part ,cookie cutters " just gimme back what I tell you , the way I tell
          you and you will pass ".

          If you are dumb enough to buy, build or design a piece-o-shit , then that is
          your problem . So the next step would be to licence musicians , so they cant
          write or play bad music ( now I'll support that ) or how about bad
          restaurants , McDonalds would be out of business for sure and all the Waffle
          Houses along the Interstates ( no big loss ) .
          The licencing that is needed , is boat operators . We moved our 40' C&C this
          weekend to it's new home and I could not believe some of the idiots out there
          ( sail and power , but mostly power , let's face it , handling a sailboat
          takes a little more finesse , it ain't just point and shoot ) I say " if you
          can't tie a bowline and figure eight a line properly on a cleat , you aren't
          allowed to leave the dock ( power or sail ) !

          Howz that Peter ? My rant dejour .

          pvanderw@... wrote:

          > Well, I must say that I am surprised. I thought that the recent issue
          > of Woodenboat would cause a breakout of Big Brother Hysteria on this
          > list, but there has been nary a mention.
          >
          > For those who don't see the magazine, let me summarize. In the US
          > (and I suppose most other highly developed countries), anyone wanting
          > to sell something that is big, complicated, expensive and a potential
          > hazard to health and welfare must have the plans approved by a
          > licensed professional engineer. This certainly includes cars, big
          > buildings (not ordinary 1-family homes, though), airplanes, power
          > plants, etc. It means big ships, but up to now, not yachts. Depending
          > on cases, the requirement is either legal (meaning the gov't requires
          > it) or practical (meaning the insurance co. requirest it).
          >
          > The requirement is not quite as onerous for a large corporation as it
          > might seem because they can have one PE (professional engineer) put
          > his neck on the line for the work of an army of subordinates.
          >
          > I am not quite sure what/who motivated it, but there is a movement
          > among the several states to require a professional engineer to
          > approve the plans of yachts. To actually get a license requires
          > passing two tests - one basically at the end of schooling when you
          > get your engineering degree, and one after the end of several years
          > of apprenticeship.
          >
          > There are two big questions about the application to yacht design.
          > The first is whether the tests, which have been developed by the big
          > ship design people, are appropriate. I wish the article had gone into
          > this a little more, and explained why it is apparently not in the
          > cards to come up with a more appropriate test.
          >
          > The second is whether the PE status is necessary at all. Very few of
          > the big name designers are engineers and I would guess about half
          > don't have very much relevant formal education. Among the not-haves
          > are Bolger (history major)and Olin Stephens (1 year MIT). There are
          > several well-known designers who are grads of UMich's naval
          > architecture program who have never taken the exams. I think Jay
          > Paris, Dave Gerr. Joel White was an NA from MIT. Bolger has gone
          > political and is fighting the trend.
          >
          > As of right now, it may be illegal to build and sell a canoe in the
          > state of Connecticut with out approval from a PE on the plans. There
          > are serious matters of inter-state law here.
          >
          > Peter
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • pvanderw@optonline.net
          ... populated already. Howz that Peter ? My rant dejour . On a scale of 1-10, I would give it an 8.5. Peter
          Message 4 of 22 , May 2, 2001
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            > Natural selection , survival of the fittest , the world's too
            populated already. Howz that Peter ? My rant dejour .

            On a scale of 1-10, I would give it an 8.5.

            Peter
          • gmatkin@clara.net
            ... From: mike goodwin panmanii@pinn.net Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:24:34 -0400 ... I m with you Mike. Train and license people using large and fast boats and
            Message 5 of 22 , May 2, 2001
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              Original Message:
              -----------------
              From: mike goodwin panmanii@...
              Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:24:34 -0400

              >Personal responsibility is the problem

              I'm with you Mike. Train and license people using large and fast boats and
              then they can be responsible for the use to which they put their craft.

              The current situation in most places is a bit like saying that if you can
              afford a car or an aeroplane, you can drive or fly. Unwise, I'd say.

              Gav



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            • James Fuller
              Yes Mike, but how do you feel about it? James ... From: mike goodwin To: Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:24 PM
              Message 6 of 22 , May 2, 2001
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                Yes Mike, but how do you feel about it?

                James

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "mike goodwin" <panmanii@...>
                To: <boatdesign@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:24 PM
                Subject: Re: [boatdesign] Professional Licensing


                > All I can say is , " DAMN LAWYERS " , none of this shit is needed .
                > Personal responsibility is the problem , they are trying to legislate
                against
                > stupidity . I mean look at the whole thing over child seats , not a single
                > baby boomer ever rode in a child seat and we all made it to middle age .
                So
                > some knucklehead parent doesn't buckle up his/her kid and does a head on
                > because they were talking to some other idiot on their cell phone , too
                bad .
                > Natural selection , survival of the fittest , the world's too populated
                > already .
                > I say let 'em ride motorcycles without a helmet .
                > If you are in an accident and are not wearing your seatbelt , no problem ,
                we
                > just wont RUSH you to the hospital cause you obviously want to die and the
                > EMT's are just honoring your wish .
                >
                > All any college degree is , is the ability to ingest , digest and
                regurgitate
                > in a prescribed manner acceptable to the University .In most cases your
                > haven't got to know shit or ever have an original thought , in fact that
                is
                > frowned upon in many schools " stay inside the box " .
                > That is why the American education system sucks , the teachers are, for
                the
                > most part ,cookie cutters " just gimme back what I tell you , the way I
                tell
                > you and you will pass ".
                >
                > If you are dumb enough to buy, build or design a piece-o-shit , then that
                is
                > your problem . So the next step would be to licence musicians , so they
                cant
                > write or play bad music ( now I'll support that ) or how about bad
                > restaurants , McDonalds would be out of business for sure and all the
                Waffle
                > Houses along the Interstates ( no big loss ) .
                > The licencing that is needed , is boat operators . We moved our 40' C&C
                this
                > weekend to it's new home and I could not believe some of the idiots out
                there
                > ( sail and power , but mostly power , let's face it , handling a sailboat
                > takes a little more finesse , it ain't just point and shoot ) I say " if
                you
                > can't tie a bowline and figure eight a line properly on a cleat , you
                aren't
                > allowed to leave the dock ( power or sail ) !
                >
                > Howz that Peter ? My rant dejour .
                >
                > pvanderw@... wrote:
                >
                > > Well, I must say that I am surprised. I thought that the recent issue
                > > of Woodenboat would cause a breakout of Big Brother Hysteria on this
                > > list, but there has been nary a mention.
                > >
                > > For those who don't see the magazine, let me summarize. In the US
                > > (and I suppose most other highly developed countries), anyone wanting
                > > to sell something that is big, complicated, expensive and a potential
                > > hazard to health and welfare must have the plans approved by a
                > > licensed professional engineer. This certainly includes cars, big
                > > buildings (not ordinary 1-family homes, though), airplanes, power
                > > plants, etc. It means big ships, but up to now, not yachts. Depending
                > > on cases, the requirement is either legal (meaning the gov't requires
                > > it) or practical (meaning the insurance co. requirest it).
                > >
                > > The requirement is not quite as onerous for a large corporation as it
                > > might seem because they can have one PE (professional engineer) put
                > > his neck on the line for the work of an army of subordinates.
                > >
                > > I am not quite sure what/who motivated it, but there is a movement
                > > among the several states to require a professional engineer to
                > > approve the plans of yachts. To actually get a license requires
                > > passing two tests - one basically at the end of schooling when you
                > > get your engineering degree, and one after the end of several years
                > > of apprenticeship.
                > >
                > > There are two big questions about the application to yacht design.
                > > The first is whether the tests, which have been developed by the big
                > > ship design people, are appropriate. I wish the article had gone into
                > > this a little more, and explained why it is apparently not in the
                > > cards to come up with a more appropriate test.
                > >
                > > The second is whether the PE status is necessary at all. Very few of
                > > the big name designers are engineers and I would guess about half
                > > don't have very much relevant formal education. Among the not-haves
                > > are Bolger (history major)and Olin Stephens (1 year MIT). There are
                > > several well-known designers who are grads of UMich's naval
                > > architecture program who have never taken the exams. I think Jay
                > > Paris, Dave Gerr. Joel White was an NA from MIT. Bolger has gone
                > > political and is fighting the trend.
                > >
                > > As of right now, it may be illegal to build and sell a canoe in the
                > > state of Connecticut with out approval from a PE on the plans. There
                > > are serious matters of inter-state law here.
                > >
                > > Peter
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • pvanderw@optonline.net
                ... It wasn t lawyers who started it. It was engineers. ... On a scale of 1-10, I give it 8.5. Peter
                Message 7 of 22 , May 2, 2001
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                  > All I can say is , " DAMN LAWYERS " , none of this shit is needed.

                  It wasn't lawyers who started it. It was engineers.


                  > Howz that Peter ? My rant dejour .

                  On a scale of 1-10, I give it 8.5.

                  Peter
                • harbinger@cconnect.net
                  ... legislate against ... Mike, Mike, why don t you tell us how you really feel!! Yeah, I pretty much agree with you. When I graduated with a BSEE, I took the
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 2, 2001
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                    --- In boatdesign@y..., mike goodwin <panmanii@p...> wrote:
                    > All I can say is , " DAMN LAWYERS " , none of this shit is needed .
                    > Personal responsibility is the problem , they are trying to
                    legislate against
                    > stupidity .

                    Mike, Mike, why don't you tell us how you really feel!!

                    Yeah, I pretty much agree with you. When I graduated with a BSEE, I
                    took the Engineer In Training exam and then later got my MEE. After
                    the five year waiting period, I thought about taking th PE exam in
                    NC. I found that getting a PE would require me to practically learn
                    civil engineering and a lot of mechanical stuff since these subjects
                    comprised almost all of the exam. There was not even one question in
                    my field of electronics. Not planning to design bridges, highways or
                    powerplants, this seemed like a great waste of time and I skipped it.

                    For a yacht or small boat designer, it seems to be pretty much the
                    same thing with the new licensing push by SNAME. The reason there is
                    a push by the states at this time is that SNAME has put a test
                    together and made it available to the states. Previously, the states
                    had no clue on how to do this.

                    Question: When a bunch of govermnental beaurocrats get the ability
                    to get control of something and generate a new department (read
                    bigger empire), can they possibly restrain themselves?

                    Just how far they will try to go with this thing is unknown. I'd
                    like to think that the business of small boats is too loose and
                    hidden away to interest them too much, but maybe I'm dreaming.
                    Hopefully they will stop at the lofty pinacle of the NA designation
                    and leave the rest of us lowly "yacht designers" alone.
                    Realistically, I suspect we are safe for quite a while yet. Hope so,
                    since I expect to be selling some plans when I can get them finished.
                  • pvanderw@optonline.net
                    ... because I didn t see any articles of interest. ... #160, May/June 2001.
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 2, 2001
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                      > Which edition was that? I didn't buy the last one -- May? --
                      because I didn't see any articles of interest.
                      >

                      #160, May/June 2001.
                    • Lew Clayman
                      ... OHMYGOD WE RE ALL GONNA DIE! Seriously, I read the article, and it left me wanting more. More info, more clarity, more detail, more of everything. I got
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 3, 2001
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                        --- pvanderw@... wrote:
                        > Well, I must say that I am surprised. I thought that the recent issue
                        > of Woodenboat would cause a breakout of Big Brother Hysteria on this
                        > list, but there has been nary a mention.

                        OHMYGOD WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

                        Seriously, I read the article, and it left me wanting more. More info, more clarity, more detail,
                        more of everything. I got that such initiatives have passed in some states and are under
                        consideration in others, but as you say it does not explain why or who. Nor does it make clear in
                        my mind what the practical effect of such laws are, assuming that they stand up to challenges, nor
                        does it really explain the potential challenges.

                        I also got that many leading designers, but not all of them, oppose the laws. But I didn't get
                        much of what anyone is doing about it except for being interviewed in the magazine. I want...
                        more.

                        For my two cents worth, this is why I haven't mentioned it at all... I don't know any more from
                        the article than the basic fact that an issue exists. I can't really form an opinion on so little
                        info. OK, I can, but I try not to.

                        <BIG snip>

                        > As of right now, it may be illegal to build and sell a canoe in the
                        > state of Connecticut with out approval from a PE on the plans. There
                        > are serious matters of inter-state law here.

                        That would be a shame, all the more so because Mystic Seaport is in Connecticut and sells historic
                        plans. Perhaps there is a 'grandfather' out for plans from before a given date? Also, does the
                        law only restrict sale of plans in-state, if so it's less bad but still quite a shame because it
                        hurts the Mystic bookshop, and Mystic is a Good Thing.

                        Interstate issues will have to be settled in the federal courts, so don't expect much definitive
                        action any time soon. Those wheels turn slowly, and sometimes they sieze up and stop completely.

                        Ugly.

                        -Lew

                        =====
                        "Gabba gabba hey."
                        - Joey Ramone (Jeffrey Hyman), 1952-2001
                        =====

                        __________________________________________________
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                      • seafox@tacisp.com
                        Peter it is worse than you state here in some cities used a law passed 4 years ago to require all single family homes to be engineered also JEFFERY ... issue
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 3, 2001
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                          Peter
                          it is worse than you state here in some cities used a law passed
                          4 years ago to require all single family homes to be engineered
                          also
                          JEFFERY



                          --- In boatdesign@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:
                          >
                          > Well, I must say that I am surprised. I thought that the recent
                          issue
                          > of Woodenboat would cause a breakout of Big Brother Hysteria
                          on this
                          > list, but there has been nary a mention.
                          >
                          > For those who don't see the magazine, let me summarize. In
                          the US
                          > (and I suppose most other highly developed countries),
                          anyone wanting
                          > to sell something that is big, complicated, expensive and a
                          potential
                          > hazard to health and welfare must have the plans approved by
                          a
                          > licensed professional engineer. This certainly includes cars,
                          big
                          > buildings (not ordinary 1-family homes, though), airplanes,
                          power
                          > plants, etc. It means big ships, but up to now, not yachts.
                          Depending
                          > on cases, the requirement is either legal (meaning the gov't
                          requires
                          > it) or practical (meaning the insurance co. requirest it).
                          >
                          > The requirement is not quite as onerous for a large corporation
                          as it
                          > might seem because they can have one PE (professional
                          engineer) put
                          > his neck on the line for the work of an army of subordinates.
                          >
                          > I am not quite sure what/who motivated it, but there is a
                          movement
                          > among the several states to require a professional engineer to
                          > approve the plans of yachts. To actually get a license requires
                          > passing two tests - one basically at the end of schooling when
                          you
                          > get your engineering degree, and one after the end of several
                          years
                          > of apprenticeship.
                          >
                          > There are two big questions about the application to yacht
                          design.
                          > The first is whether the tests, which have been developed by
                          the big
                          > ship design people, are appropriate. I wish the article had
                          gone into
                          > this a little more, and explained why it is apparently not in the
                          > cards to come up with a more appropriate test.
                          >
                          > The second is whether the PE status is necessary at all. Very
                          few of
                          > the big name designers are engineers and I would guess
                          about half
                          > don't have very much relevant formal education. Among the
                          not-haves
                          > are Bolger (history major)and Olin Stephens (1 year MIT).
                          There are
                          > several well-known designers who are grads of UMich's naval
                          > architecture program who have never taken the exams. I think
                          Jay
                          > Paris, Dave Gerr. Joel White was an NA from MIT. Bolger has
                          gone
                          > political and is fighting the trend.
                          >
                          > As of right now, it may be illegal to build and sell a canoe in the
                          > state of Connecticut with out approval from a PE on the plans.
                          There
                          > are serious matters of inter-state law here.
                          >
                          > Peter
                        • pvanderw@optonline.net
                          ... Some designers think they should be able to draw any boat that meets Coast Guard requirments, just as a developer (in most places) can build any house that
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 3, 2001
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                            > it is worse than you state here in some cities used a law passed
                            > 4 years ago to require all single family homes to be engineered

                            Some designers think they should be able to draw any boat that meets
                            Coast Guard requirments, just as a developer (in most places) can
                            build any house that meets building code. In other words, they think
                            they are already regulated.

                            I'm not sure exactly what requirements for stability, etc. exist for
                            production sailing yachts. Mostly, I always thought that it was a
                            matter of appropriate numbers engraved on the name plate.

                            Peter
                          • cdbarry@hotmail.com
                            ... issue ... this ... The PE license issue really has nothing to do with yacht design. It involves the needs of commercial naval architects: 1) Because they
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 22, 2001
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                              --- In boatdesign@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:
                              >
                              > Well, I must say that I am surprised. I thought that the recent
                              issue
                              > of Woodenboat would cause a breakout of Big Brother Hysteria on
                              this
                              > list, but there has been nary a mention.

                              The PE license issue really has nothing to do with yacht design. It
                              involves the needs of commercial naval architects:

                              1) Because they have always had to be licensed as some kind of
                              engineer, and SNAME finally decided that naval architects should
                              register as naval architects, not mechanicals or civils.

                              2) Because NVIC 10-92 affords expedited review to stamped drawings
                              and calcs.

                              3) Because it's required for OPA 90 certs, certain drydocking
                              analyses, bulk cargo studies, hazmat cargos studies, and so on.

                              There is about $5 billion dollars of commercial US non-government
                              newbuilding on the books right now. This is 5,000,000 manhours of
                              engineering, much of it under either NVIC 10-92 or otherwise
                              requiring certification.

                              I understand that this actually started with Louisiana, which
                              requested a copy of the Washington state PE test and got the ball
                              rolling with SNAME, since there are so many small ship operations on
                              the Gulf. (Washington and Oregon have had NA as a specialty for
                              about 60 years, though Washington gives the test for both states.)

                              Yacht design isn't engineering. The boards know this, and Washington
                              has set plenty of precedent. There are probably more unlicensed
                              yacht designers in Washington state that the whole rest of the
                              country and it's a non-issue. I can't figure out what everyone is
                              worried about.
                            • Lew Clayman
                              ... What s a NVIC 10-92? ... What s a OPA 90? -L ===== I know you know what you know, But you should know by now that you re not me. - Nasty/McQuickly =====
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 22, 2001
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                                --- cdbarry@... wrote:
                                > 2) Because NVIC 10-92 affords expedited review to stamped drawings
                                > and calcs.

                                What's a NVIC 10-92?

                                > 3) Because it's required for OPA 90 certs, certain drydocking
                                > analyses, bulk cargo studies, hazmat cargos studies, and so on.

                                What's a OPA 90?

                                -L


                                =====
                                "I know you know what you know,
                                But you should know by now that you're not me."
                                - Nasty/McQuickly
                                =====

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                              • pvanderw@optonline.net
                                ... Washington has set plenty of precedent. It is by no means clear that this is true in all states, and even in Washington, it appears that the line between
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 23, 2001
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                                  > Yacht design isn't engineering. The boards know this, and
                                  Washington has set plenty of precedent.

                                  It is by no means clear that this is true in all states, and even in
                                  Washington, it appears that the line between "engineering" on a major
                                  vessel and "designing" on a yacht is vague. I think there is plenty
                                  of reason for concern when a bureaucratic decision can take away a
                                  man's livlihood, or even declare that he had been working illegally
                                  (although in good faith) in the past.

                                  Clearly there are engineering elements to yacht design, and designers
                                  do not always agree about what standards are appropriate. For
                                  example, in the last few days there has been a discussion about
                                  limits of positive stability in the "origamiboats" group.

                                  Peter
                                • Lew Clayman
                                  ... Many of the designers noted in WB also work on larger and/or working designs besides yachts, and of course some yachts are used commercially (rented,
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 23, 2001
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                                    --- pvanderw@... wrote:
                                    > > Yacht design isn't engineering. The boards know this, and
                                    > Washington has set plenty of precedent.
                                    >
                                    > It is by no means clear that this is true in all states, and even in
                                    > Washington, it appears that the line between "engineering" on a major
                                    > vessel and "designing" on a yacht is vague. I think there is plenty
                                    > of reason for concern when a bureaucratic decision can take away a
                                    > man's livlihood, or even declare that he had been working illegally
                                    > (although in good faith) in the past.

                                    Many of the designers noted in WB also work on larger and/or working designs besides yachts, and
                                    of course some yachts are used commercially (rented, carrying passengers, etc). Maybe this is the
                                    concern?

                                    -L

                                    =====
                                    "I know you know what you know,
                                    But you should know by now that you're not me."
                                    - Nasty/McQuickly
                                    =====

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                                  • cdbarry@hotmail.com
                                    ... in ... major ... designers ... Oil Pollution Act of 1990 - certain studies submitted to Coast Guard for certification of vessels for bulk oil cargoes,
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 23, 2001
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                                      --- In boatdesign@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Yacht design isn't engineering. The boards know this, and
                                      > Washington has set plenty of precedent.
                                      >
                                      > It is by no means clear that this is true in all states, and even
                                      in
                                      > Washington, it appears that the line between "engineering" on a
                                      major
                                      > vessel and "designing" on a yacht is vague. I think there is plenty
                                      > of reason for concern when a bureaucratic decision can take away a
                                      > man's livlihood, or even declare that he had been working illegally
                                      > (although in good faith) in the past.
                                      >
                                      > Clearly there are engineering elements to yacht design, and
                                      designers
                                      > do not always agree about what standards are appropriate. For
                                      > example, in the last few days there has been a discussion about
                                      > limits of positive stability in the "origamiboats" group.
                                      >
                                      > Peter

                                      Oil Pollution Act of 1990 - certain studies submitted to Coast Guard
                                      for certification of vessels for bulk oil cargoes, especially barges.

                                      The line is not really as vague as you might think. This has been
                                      batted around in Washington for decades and has been examined in many
                                      other fields much more extensively in most of the states.

                                      The state statutes all contain two key phrases, "public welfare" and
                                      "engineering principles and data" and these form the key test
                                      issues. The former is not applicable to yachts as they are private
                                      and don't put third parties to the owner/design contract at risk.
                                      Engineering vice "practical" means that the common man can't readily
                                      use them. Skenes, for example, sets forth the calculations required
                                      for practical yacht design such that a reasonable person can read
                                      them and apply them. ABYC rules are also prescriptive and can be
                                      readily applied by a common person, even though both represent the
                                      results of engineering principles. This type of thing is a
                                      practical issue and is not considered engineering, precisely because
                                      a common person can readily do it.

                                      Finally, yachts have another more important issue that the boards
                                      also consider - you don't have to have anyone inspect them or get a
                                      building permit. Thus anyone can build and thus design their own
                                      yacht, so what purpose is served by controlling who can sell design
                                      services?

                                      California made exactly that argument to me when I asked if I should
                                      get an NA license there (I hold an NA/ME license in Washington state
                                      as well) in addition to my ME license. Since no state or county
                                      agency will ever certify any yacht or even any ship, it serves no
                                      state purpose to recognize naval architecture as a branch (though
                                      they still have to be registered in something California does
                                      recognize to practice engineering in general).

                                      The key is not to call yourself a naval architect, offer to perform
                                      engineering services, especially by name, or to work on commercial
                                      vessels, not to worry, and to be happy.
                                    • cdbarry@hotmail.com
                                      ... in ... major ... plenty ... a ... illegally ... working designs besides yachts, and ... passengers, etc). Maybe this is the ... I wouldn t be surprised if
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 23, 2001
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                                        --- In boatdesign@y..., Lew Clayman <lew_clayman@y...> wrote:
                                        > --- pvanderw@o... wrote:
                                        > > > Yacht design isn't engineering. The boards know this, and
                                        > > Washington has set plenty of precedent.
                                        > >
                                        > > It is by no means clear that this is true in all states, and even
                                        in
                                        > > Washington, it appears that the line between "engineering" on a
                                        major
                                        > > vessel and "designing" on a yacht is vague. I think there is
                                        plenty
                                        > > of reason for concern when a bureaucratic decision can take away
                                        a
                                        > > man's livlihood, or even declare that he had been working
                                        illegally
                                        > > (although in good faith) in the past.
                                        >
                                        > Many of the designers noted in WB also work on larger and/or
                                        working designs besides yachts, and
                                        > of course some yachts are used commercially (rented, carrying
                                        passengers, etc). Maybe this is the
                                        > concern?
                                        >
                                        > -L
                                        >
                                        > =====
                                        > "I know you know what you know,
                                        > But you should know by now that you're not me."
                                        > - Nasty/McQuickly
                                        > =====
                                        >
                                        > __________________________________________________
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                                        > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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                                        I wouldn't be surprised if that was the hidden message.

                                        I think the Leavitt shows exactly what can happen and why there is a
                                        distinction. The terrible loss of life in the fishing industry is
                                        another example.

                                        Yacht designers shouldn't do critical analyses on vessels that
                                        present a risk to the public. (They might even do the design, but
                                        not certain key analyses.) That is what naval architects are for.

                                        I know yacht designers often think they can do small commercial
                                        vessels and some actually can (and they should go get a license), but
                                        there is a lot more to a commercial craft that has to meet specifc
                                        requirements and presents an optimum economic solution for the owner
                                        than meets the eye.
                                      • cdbarry@hotmail.com
                                        ... drawings ... Sorry for missing this. Navigation and Vessel Inspection Circular number 10 of 1992. The Coast Guard publishes navics as extra guidance on
                                        Message 19 of 22 , May 23, 2001
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                                          --- In boatdesign@y..., Lew Clayman <lew_clayman@y...> wrote:
                                          > --- cdbarry@h... wrote:
                                          > > 2) Because NVIC 10-92 affords expedited review to stamped
                                          drawings
                                          > > and calcs.
                                          >
                                          > What's a NVIC 10-92?
                                          >

                                          Sorry for missing this.

                                          Navigation and Vessel Inspection Circular number 10 of 1992. The
                                          Coast Guard publishes "navics" as extra guidance on regulatory
                                          matters. NVICs can be downloaded free from www.uscg.mil. Click on
                                          Marine Safety and Environmental Protection, then search for NVIC.
                                          Some of them are quite useful. I recall one on wood construction and
                                          another on fiberglass, for example, and the voluntary commercial
                                          fishing vessel safety one (5-86, I think) is a very good source for
                                          lots of safety and stability issues.
                                        • Lew Clayman
                                          ... Or go to http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g%2Dm/nvic/index00.htm and search w/in NVICs Quite a resource! -L ===== I know you know what you know, But you should know
                                          Message 20 of 22 , May 23, 2001
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                                            --- cdbarry@... wrote:

                                            > Coast Guard publishes "navics" as extra guidance on regulatory
                                            > matters. NVICs can be downloaded free from www.uscg.mil. Click on
                                            > Marine Safety and Environmental Protection, then search for NVIC.

                                            Or go to http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g%2Dm/nvic/index00.htm and search w/in NVICs

                                            Quite a resource!

                                            -L

                                            =====
                                            "I know you know what you know,
                                            But you should know by now that you're not me."
                                            - Nasty/McQuickly
                                            =====

                                            __________________________________________________
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                                            Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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                                          • pvanderw@optonline.net
                                            ... It involves the needs of commercial naval architects. Thank you for taking the time to post. You have a much clearer view of the governmental/bureaucratic
                                            Message 21 of 22 , May 24, 2001
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                                              > The PE license issue really has nothing to do with yacht design.
                                              It involves the needs of commercial naval architects.

                                              Thank you for taking the time to post. You have a much clearer view
                                              of the governmental/bureaucratic issues than most of us who are
                                              amateurs and dilettantes.

                                              Peter
                                            • cdbarry@hotmail.com
                                              ... I hope I haven t sounded like I was not taking your concerns seriously or not regarding all of you with respect, but there is a lot of needless heat and
                                              Message 22 of 22 , May 25, 2001
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                                                > Thank you for taking the time to post. You have a much clearer view
                                                > of the governmental/bureaucratic issues than most of us who are
                                                > amateurs and dilettantes.
                                                >
                                                > Peter

                                                I hope I haven't sounded like I was not taking your concerns
                                                seriously or not regarding all of you with respect, but there is a
                                                lot of needless heat and fire on this issue, with lots of bad
                                                feelings, and it really is not a issue that strongly effects yacht
                                                design.

                                                Just as in all areas of endeavor, there are things that people not
                                                deep in the trade don't know about (and why would they - most are
                                                very boring). Most of the actual practice of naval architecture,
                                                like most of the actual practice of law or accounting or ... is
                                                specialized and quite unlike what people outside the field imagine.
                                                (Take for example "general average"). This is mostly what P.E.
                                                registration is about, not yacht design.
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