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Re: weather

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  • rhaldridge
    Lew, the Vancian concept was for rapid movement of passengers, rather than freight, which was moved in more conventional ways, via wagons and ships. Vance, as
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 1, 2011
      Lew, the Vancian concept was for rapid movement of passengers, rather than freight, which was moved in more conventional ways, via wagons and ships.

      Vance, as always, was way ahead of everyone else in formulating the implications of his ideas. The balloon way magnates promoted a sort of prison-industrial complex to get the labor to produce the raw materials and infrastructure required by the balloon ways. The balloons and gondolas required vast amounts of wythe (think bamboo) and getting this material was man-killing labor, so almost every crime, no matter how minor, could result in a sentence to the labor camps.

      The high civilizations of this world built in glass-- great monumental architecture, but terribly vulnerable to warfare. The Faceless Man novels are not Vance's strongest work, but well worth reading.

      Ray

      http:/slidercat.com/blog/wordpress

      --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, L <lew_clayman@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > It strikes me that we (humanity/earth) had the technology and probably the workforce and probably the demand, to construct and operate "sailroads" in Roman times and likely earlier.  Concrete in particular is a Roman invention.  Sailing goes way back before that.  The need to travel the Empire from Calais to Cairo existed, as did the Silk Road all the way to China.  The same people who built the aquaducts, could certainly have built sailway viaducts.  (Building the "Chuquaduct" to Dover is an amusing concept!) 
      >
      > So why didn't they?  Probably because they regarded the transport of the day as satisfactory.  Probably they didn't improve, except marginally, on the ships and wagons of the day because they didn't see the need. 
    • john colley
      Ok so why are we talking about sails? why not use wind mills etc to power vehicles? ________________________________ From: L To:
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 1, 2011
        Ok so why are we talking about sails? why not use wind mills etc to power vehicles?


        From: L <lew_clayman@...>
        To: "boatdesign@yahoogroups.com" <boatdesign@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, 1 July 2011 6:46 AM
        Subject: Re: [boatdesign] Re: weather

         

        It strikes me that we (humanity/earth) had the technology and probably the workforce and probably the demand, to construct and operate "sailroads" in Roman times and likely earlier.  Concrete in particular is a Roman invention.  Sailing goes way back before that.  The need to travel the Empire from Calais to Cairo existed, as did the Silk Road all the way to China.  The same people who built the aquaducts, could certainly have built sailway viaducts.  (Building the "Chuquaduct" to Dover is an amusing concept!) 
         
        So why didn't they?  Probably because they regarded the transport of the day as satisfactory.  Probably they didn't improve, except marginally, on the ships and wagons of the day because they didn't see the need. 
         
        What they didn't find satisfactory in terms of transport, and where they did put enormous resources into, was the road system for moving horses, carts, and especially armies.  They never paved the Silk Road, because it was never in their military interest to do so.  They did pave most of the way from Calais to Cairo, or at any rate from Gaul to Alexandria.  If a place lacked good harbors, they built artificial ones (eg Caesarea, by no coincidence just off the Via Maris at Exit 14A).  It wasn't for lack of skills, resources, or problem-solving.
         
        Now, how could we use this idea today?  In the world of green transport, sail power would certainly beat the pants off of biodiesel, if viable.  But what size sail do you need to move a 100 ton freight car?  how about 100-car train (not a very long train at all btw).
         
        Well, 3,000 sqft on 100 tons gives an SADR of about 13, reasonable enough for a ship.  We'd have to mount that on say a 60' foot, making for a sail height something over 50' in a gaff, perhaps 100' in a Bermudan.  Probably we need a lot more to overcome rail friction and climb hills, even mild ones. Still, I suspect it's doable.  (It does however mean that rights of way need to be VERY wide.)
         
        It would be tricky coordinating all the sails as winds shift and when going around curves and you'd better have damn good brakes in case the train up ahead is becalmed. 
         
        Can anybody say, "TIMBITS"?????
         
         
         
         
        From: pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...>
        To: boatdesign@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 11:23 AM
        Subject: [boatdesign] Re: weather

         

        > No rebar as we understand it either, but I presume
        > something could be found.

        Kevlar?
        Spectra?
        Carbon Fiber?





      • L
        Good point, as they are direction-neutral.  All they see is apparent wind, direction is secondary.  But it is not without problems.  The area needed
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 1, 2011

          Good point, as they are direction-neutral.  All they "see" is apparent wind, direction is secondary.  But it is not without problems.  The area needed doesn't change, you need to capture the energy of the moving air and, well, it takes as much as it takes.  In practice, it has proven a devishly delicate mechanism when mounted on moving platform (much less so when mounted firmly to terra firma).  In fairness however, the amount of time and effort humankind has put into sails (thousands of years, millions of vessels, the capital support of global empires and world trade, the research technology of America's Cup, and so forth and so on) vs what we've spent looking into windmill-vessels (a pittance, really) is enough to explain the difference in development levels.

          For the ancients, the comparison was a no-brainer - even had they had windmills and even had they had baloons. 

          The raw technology to build them existed, but the development of windmills didn't come until the earily Middle Ages - not sure why they were weren't sought sooner, but again, necessity is the mom so probably the necessity was satisfied other ways.  But at sea, a sail can be fixed with a needle and thread... a windmill not so much.  Half a sail will still limp to safe harbor, half a windmill not so much.  And of course to really use a windmill at sea, you need a prop - an invention of the mid-1900s, and metal.  Although again, the prop was developed of necessity and came after the rotary power source (steam).

          I suppose that windmill-paddlewheelers are possible, all in wood and other non-metal materials.  It would be a hoot to build one as a sort of green-steampunk exercise, but it would be hell to maintain and inefficient.  But what a hoot!!!  Similary, windmill-landsailers.

          The question I have about balloons is, you still need either fuel to heat the air to stay aloft, and in our world that means fossil fuels.  Staying aloft by burning wood is a big weight issue, gas is the way to go.  Sans fossil fuels?

          For greenness, staying aloft by burning things... not so hot, you should pardon the expression.


          From: john colley <Helliconia54@...>
          To: "boatdesign@yahoogroups.com" <boatdesign@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, July 1, 2011 4:39 AM
          Subject: Re: [boatdesign] Re: weather

           
          Ok so why are we talking about sails? why not use wind mills etc to power vehicles?


          From: L <lew_clayman@...>
          To: "boatdesign@yahoogroups.com" <boatdesign@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, 1 July 2011 6:46 AM
          Subject: Re: [boatdesign] Re: weather

           

          It strikes me that we (humanity/earth) had the technology and probably the workforce and probably the demand, to construct and operate "sailroads" in Roman times and likely earlier.  Concrete in particular is a Roman invention.  Sailing goes way back before that.  The need to travel the Empire from Calais to Cairo existed, as did the Silk Road all the way to China.  The same people who built the aquaducts, could certainly have built sailway viaducts.  (Building the "Chuquaduct" to Dover is an amusing concept!) 
           
          So why didn't they?  Probably because they regarded the transport of the day as satisfactory.  Probably they didn't improve, except marginally, on the ships and wagons of the day because they didn't see the need. 
           
          What they didn't find satisfactory in terms of transport, and where they did put enormous resources into, was the road system for moving horses, carts, and especially armies.  They never paved the Silk Road, because it was never in their military interest to do so.  They did pave most of the way from Calais to Cairo, or at any rate from Gaul to Alexandria.  If a place lacked good harbors, they built artificial ones (eg Caesarea, by no coincidence just off the Via Maris at Exit 14A).  It wasn't for lack of skills, resources, or problem-solving.
           
          Now, how could we use this idea today?  In the world of green transport, sail power would certainly beat the pants off of biodiesel, if viable.  But what size sail do you need to move a 100 ton freight car?  how about 100-car train (not a very long train at all btw).
           
          Well, 3,000 sqft on 100 tons gives an SADR of about 13, reasonable enough for a ship.  We'd have to mount that on say a 60' foot, making for a sail height something over 50' in a gaff, perhaps 100' in a Bermudan.  Probably we need a lot more to overcome rail friction and climb hills, even mild ones. Still, I suspect it's doable.  (It does however mean that rights of way need to be VERY wide.)
           
          It would be tricky coordinating all the sails as winds shift and when going around curves and you'd better have damn good brakes in case the train up ahead is becalmed. 
           
          Can anybody say, "TIMBITS"?????
           
           
           
           
          From: pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...>
          To: boatdesign@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 11:23 AM
          Subject: [boatdesign] Re: weather

           

          > No rebar as we understand it either, but I presume
          > something could be found.

          Kevlar?
          Spectra?
          Carbon Fiber?







        • rhaldridge
          ... I think sails are more efficient in this context, and also required less in the way of metallurgy. The gondolas were lifted from the ground by the
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 1, 2011
            --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ok so why are we talking about sails? why not use wind mills etc to power vehicles?
            >

            I think sails are more efficient in this context, and also required less in the way of metallurgy. The gondolas were lifted from the ground by the balloon/sails, so friction was very low-- just the friction of the running gear in the slots. The balloon/sails were controlled by numerous braces, as Viking square sail were sheeted.

            I tried hard to get one of my children to build a scale model for a science fair project, but couldn't get them to take on something that complicated.

            Ray

            http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress

            By the way, I've started building the new cat. The first hull is stitched up, awaiting bulkheads and stringers.
          • rhaldridge
            ... I guess the advantage of an alien biosphere (for a writer) is you can posit organisms that evolve hydrogen. The Faceless Man world had been inhabited by
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 1, 2011
              --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, L <lew_clayman@...> wrote:
              >
              >

              > The question I have about balloons is, you still need either fuel to heat the air to stay aloft, and in our world that means fossil fuels.  Staying aloft by burning wood is a big weight issue, gas is the way to go.  Sans fossil fuels?
              >

              I guess the advantage of an alien biosphere (for a writer) is you can posit organisms that evolve hydrogen.

              The Faceless Man world had been inhabited by humans for thousands of years, but technology was limited in some directions by the lack of heavy metals. But they had many advanced technologies, radio, explosives, even computers in some sense. The medium of social control was that everyone wore an explosive neckband from puberty onward. If the Faceless Man thought you were being bad, he took your head. Again, the bar for capital punishment was set very low.

              These novels were also noteworthy for their exploration of music as a form of communication. On this world, singers were considered to not be real musicians. Real musicians communicated their feelings brilliantly through the purity of instrumental music. Lyrics were a crutch used only by the untalented.


              Ray

              http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress
            • John Welsford
              There have been a number of very successful windmill powered vehicles, the advantage being that they will go directly to windward . I ve seen documentation of
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 1, 2011
                There have been a number of very successful windmill powered vehicles, the advantage being that they will go directly to windward . I've seen documentation of railways, boats and cars powered that way,  All of them can be made to work well given the right range of wind speeds relative to the vehicle.
                 
                JohnW
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 4:15 AM
                Subject: [boatdesign] Re: weather

                 



                --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
                >
                > Ok so why are we talking about sails? why not use wind mills etc to power vehicles?
                >

                I think sails are more efficient in this context, and also required less in the way of metallurgy. The gondolas were lifted from the ground by the balloon/sails, so friction was very low-- just the friction of the running gear in the slots. The balloon/sails were controlled by numerous braces, as Viking square sail were sheeted.

                I tried hard to get one of my children to build a scale model for a science fair project, but couldn't get them to take on something that complicated.

                Ray

                http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress

                By the way, I've started building the new cat. The first hull is stitched up, awaiting bulkheads and stringers.

              • john colley
                thoughts on heating air/water for steam?  Ok first harness the power of the humble sunflower! it always faces the sun.Use this motive power to keep parabolic
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 1, 2011
                  thoughts on heating air/water for steam?  Ok first harness the power of the humble sunflower! it always faces the sun.Use this motive power to keep parabolic mirrors aimed at solar furnace.  Got to look outside the square,,,,LOL  Picture a future primitive vessel with a sunflower garden in the bow?


                  From: L <lew_clayman@...>
                  To: "boatdesign@yahoogroups.com" <boatdesign@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, 1 July 2011 8:52 PM
                  Subject: Re: [boatdesign] Re: weather

                   

                  Good point, as they are direction-neutral.  All they "see" is apparent wind, direction is secondary.  But it is not without problems.  The area needed doesn't change, you need to capture the energy of the moving air and, well, it takes as much as it takes.  In practice, it has proven a devishly delicate mechanism when mounted on moving platform (much less so when mounted firmly to terra firma).  In fairness however, the amount of time and effort humankind has put into sails (thousands of years, millions of vessels, the capital support of global empires and world trade, the research technology of America's Cup, and so forth and so on) vs what we've spent looking into windmill-vessels (a pittance, really) is enough to explain the difference in development levels.

                  For the ancients, the comparison was a no-brainer - even had they had windmills and even had they had baloons. 

                  The raw technology to build them existed, but the development of windmills didn't come until the earily Middle Ages - not sure why they were weren't sought sooner, but again, necessity is the mom so probably the necessity was satisfied other ways.  But at sea, a sail can be fixed with a needle and thread... a windmill not so much.  Half a sail will still limp to safe harbor, half a windmill not so much.  And of course to really use a windmill at sea, you need a prop - an invention of the mid-1900s, and metal.  Although again, the prop was developed of necessity and came after the rotary power source (steam).

                  I suppose that windmill-paddlewheelers are possible, all in wood and other non-metal materials.  It would be a hoot to build one as a sort of green-steampunk exercise, but it would be hell to maintain and inefficient.  But what a hoot!!!  Similary, windmill-landsailers.

                  The question I have about balloons is, you still need either fuel to heat the air to stay aloft, and in our world that means fossil fuels.  Staying aloft by burning wood is a big weight issue, gas is the way to go.  Sans fossil fuels?

                  For greenness, staying aloft by burning things... not so hot, you should pardon the expression.


                  From: john colley <Helliconia54@...>
                  To: "boatdesign@yahoogroups.com" <boatdesign@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, July 1, 2011 4:39 AM
                  Subject: Re: [boatdesign] Re: weather

                   
                  Ok so why are we talking about sails? why not use wind mills etc to power vehicles?


                  From: L <lew_clayman@...>
                  To: "boatdesign@yahoogroups.com" <boatdesign@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, 1 July 2011 6:46 AM
                  Subject: Re: [boatdesign] Re: weather

                   

                  It strikes me that we (humanity/earth) had the technology and probably the workforce and probably the demand, to construct and operate "sailroads" in Roman times and likely earlier.  Concrete in particular is a Roman invention.  Sailing goes way back before that.  The need to travel the Empire from Calais to Cairo existed, as did the Silk Road all the way to China.  The same people who built the aquaducts, could certainly have built sailway viaducts.  (Building the "Chuquaduct" to Dover is an amusing concept!) 
                   
                  So why didn't they?  Probably because they regarded the transport of the day as satisfactory.  Probably they didn't improve, except marginally, on the ships and wagons of the day because they didn't see the need. 
                   
                  What they didn't find satisfactory in terms of transport, and where they did put enormous resources into, was the road system for moving horses, carts, and especially armies.  They never paved the Silk Road, because it was never in their military interest to do so.  They did pave most of the way from Calais to Cairo, or at any rate from Gaul to Alexandria.  If a place lacked good harbors, they built artificial ones (eg Caesarea, by no coincidence just off the Via Maris at Exit 14A).  It wasn't for lack of skills, resources, or problem-solving.
                   
                  Now, how could we use this idea today?  In the world of green transport, sail power would certainly beat the pants off of biodiesel, if viable.  But what size sail do you need to move a 100 ton freight car?  how about 100-car train (not a very long train at all btw).
                   
                  Well, 3,000 sqft on 100 tons gives an SADR of about 13, reasonable enough for a ship.  We'd have to mount that on say a 60' foot, making for a sail height something over 50' in a gaff, perhaps 100' in a Bermudan.  Probably we need a lot more to overcome rail friction and climb hills, even mild ones. Still, I suspect it's doable.  (It does however mean that rights of way need to be VERY wide.)
                   
                  It would be tricky coordinating all the sails as winds shift and when going around curves and you'd better have damn good brakes in case the train up ahead is becalmed. 
                   
                  Can anybody say, "TIMBITS"?????
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  From: pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...>
                  To: boatdesign@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 11:23 AM
                  Subject: [boatdesign] Re: weather

                   

                  > No rebar as we understand it either, but I presume
                  > something could be found.

                  Kevlar?
                  Spectra?
                  Carbon Fiber?









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