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boatdesign-relevant advertising by Yahoo!

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  • pvanderwaart
    When I opened the home page this morning, there was a banner ad from Yahoo for Aluminum Kit Boats:http://chesapeakealuminumkitboats.com/ To see designs, click
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 2, 2009
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      When I opened the home page this morning, there was a banner ad from
      Yahoo for Aluminum Kit Boats:http://chesapeakealuminumkitboats.com/

      To see designs, click on the link to http://www.specmar.com/ (it's in
      the middle of the text).

      Some of these boats look like the rugged ones I saw in Alaska.
    • Julian Fouser
      The price of aluminum is back to where it was 10 years ago. So they may not be a bad deal . And for cast of 15 gal. of epoxy you can buy a good welder . Tough
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 2, 2009
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        The price of aluminum is back to where it was 10 years ago. So they
        may not be a bad deal . And for cast of 15 gal. of epoxy you can buy a
        good welder . Tough time to be selling boats , even in kit form . but
        I wish them luck .

        J

        P.S. looks like KISS cats are out of business.

        --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > When I opened the home page this morning, there was a banner ad from
        > Yahoo for Aluminum Kit Boats:http://chesapeakealuminumkitboats.com/
        >
        > To see designs, click on the link to http://www.specmar.com/ (it's in
        > the middle of the text).
        >
        > Some of these boats look like the rugged ones I saw in Alaska.
        >
      • Doug Pollard
        ... Julian, This e-mail is very interesting to me. I have been talking to some friends down on the Chesapeake Bay and he says in that area there is a kind
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 3, 2009
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          Julian Fouser wrote:
          >
          > The price of aluminum is back to where it was 10 years ago. So they
          > may not be a bad deal . And for cast of 15 gal. of epoxy you can buy a
          > good welder . Tough time to be selling boats , even in kit form . but
          > I wish them luck .
          >
          > J
          >
          > P.S. looks like KISS cats are out of business.
          >
          > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:boatdesign%40yahoogroups.com>, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > When I opened the home page this morning, there was a banner ad from
          > > Yahoo for Aluminum Kit Boats:http://chesapeakealuminumkitboats.com/
          > <http://chesapeakealuminumkitboats.com/>
          > >
          > > To see designs, click on the link to http://www.specmar.com/
          > <http://www.specmar.com/> (it's in
          > > the middle of the text).
          > >
          > > Some of these boats look like the rugged ones I saw in Alaska.
          > >
          >
          >
          Julian, This e-mail is very interesting to me. I have been talking to
          some friends down on the Chesapeake Bay and he says in that area there
          is a kind of back to the earth movement going on. Many of the local
          young families have bought 3 acre plots of land over the last 10 years
          and put a cheaper double wide house on them because that's the minimum
          size plot you can put one on and you can sell that size plot without
          having to subdevide. He says Garden tractors are selling lot hot
          cakes right now and cheap small boats as well. I guess people are
          fishing and farming. He also says the talk around the coffee table at
          the local resturant is all about how to be self suficent. Seems like
          the ability to build cheap aluminum boats should fall right in with
          this. I have been looking at the web site on boats for East Timore or
          something like that and thinking those boats would be grea for watermen
          here on the bay. These for the small time ,part time water men to
          supply his own seafood and sell locally in small quantites. Seems like
          go fishing in the morning load up a couple coolers and make the rounds
          to pick up a little extra money might be a help to some who are
          struggling. A cheap aluminum boat that can take the abuse that it would
          need to take would be perfect.

          Doug
        • daschultz2000
          There is a member here, Chrisse (sp?) who is an experienced welder. In a previous thread she pointed out some of the issues with welding aluminum, even with
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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            There is a member here, Chrisse (sp?) who is an experienced welder. In a previous thread she pointed out some of the issues with welding aluminum, even with the great technology available at low prices today.

            I already own a wirefeed welder with the gas option and a coil of aluminum wire. So I thought I was ready to cut up aluminum sheet per a nice "stitch and glue plywood" design, practice on the scrap, then tack weld up a nice boat. There are pics of an aluminum Bolger Diablo around.

            However, she pointed out that you can't just grab any aluminum wire and start welding. You must have the alloys match, and it is also easy to end up with a rather heavy boat by using heavy gauge stuff to make the welding easier for a newbie.

            Anyway, the skills to turn plywood/fiberglas/epoxy into a boat appear to be more easily developed than to do the same with a pile of aluminum.

            I've concluded if I decided aluminum was the direction I wanted to go, I would buy the aluminum, and cut it up as described, then pay a pro to do the welding, with me as the shop hand, doing setup. The pro might have to be someone using my welder, or a small business man with a truck who would come by and weld up what I've set up for that day, and leave.

            All good things to consider.


            Don

            --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@...> wrote:
            >
            > The price of aluminum is back to where it was 10 years ago. So they
            > may not be a bad deal . And for cast of 15 gal. of epoxy you can buy a
            > good welder . Tough time to be selling boats , even in kit form . but
            > I wish them luck .
            >
            > J
          • Julian Fouser
            I see a lot of welded aluminum things around , and I just dont believe that welding aluminum is to difficult to be learned . But then I pick things up easily ,
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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              I see a lot of welded aluminum things around , and I just dont believe that welding aluminum is to difficult to be learned . But then I pick things up easily , and this may not be the case with you. However there are many good books to read ,and classes that to take. Books should be enough if you have some comprehension . And it helps if you do not listen to those telling you it cant be done .

              J

              --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
              >
              > There is a member here, Chrisse (sp?) who is an experienced welder. In a previous thread she pointed out some of the issues with welding aluminum, even with the great technology available at low prices today.
              >
              > I already own a wirefeed welder with the gas option and a coil of aluminum wire. So I thought I was ready to cut up aluminum sheet per a nice "stitch and glue plywood" design, practice on the scrap, then tack weld up a nice boat. There are pics of an aluminum Bolger Diablo around.
              >
              > However, she pointed out that you can't just grab any aluminum wire and start welding. You must have the alloys match, and it is also easy to end up with a rather heavy boat by using heavy gauge stuff to make the welding easier for a newbie.
              >
              > Anyway, the skills to turn plywood/fiberglas/epoxy into a boat appear to be more easily developed than to do the same with a pile of aluminum.
              >
              > I've concluded if I decided aluminum was the direction I wanted to go, I would buy the aluminum, and cut it up as described, then pay a pro to do the welding, with me as the shop hand, doing setup. The pro might have to be someone using my welder, or a small business man with a truck who would come by and weld up what I've set up for that day, and leave.
              >
              > All good things to consider.
              >
              >
              > Don
              >
              > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The price of aluminum is back to where it was 10 years ago. So they
              > > may not be a bad deal . And for cast of 15 gal. of epoxy you can buy a
              > > good welder . Tough time to be selling boats , even in kit form . but
              > > I wish them luck .
              > >
              > > J
              >
            • nutty_boats
              ... Another thing to consider, which makes me really hesitate using aluminum, is that it is one of the more active elements electro-chemically. I have heard
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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                --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                >
                > There is a member here, Chrisse (sp?) who is an experienced welder. In a previous thread she pointed out some of the issues with welding aluminum, even with the great technology available at low prices today.
                >
                > However, she pointed out that you can't just grab any aluminum wire and start welding. You must have the alloys match, and it is also easy to end up with a rather heavy boat by using heavy gauge stuff to make the welding easier for a newbie.
                >
                > Anyway, the skills to turn plywood/fiberglas/epoxy into a boat appear to be more easily developed than to do the same with a pile of aluminum.
                >
                > All good things to consider.
                >
                >
                > Don

                Another thing to consider, which makes me really hesitate using aluminum, is that it is one of the more active elements electro-chemically. I have heard enough horror stories of where the aluminum simply rotted away in salt water, even from something as simple as a coin accidentally dropped into a bilge. Even unevennesses in the alloy can cause corrosion.

                I haven't heard the same problems in fresh water.

                The bottom line is that an aluminum hull intended for salt water may need as much protection from the water as a steel or wooden hull. Since the methodologies for protecting wood from water are the most developed, especially for backyard builders, I personally plan on using plywood for any construction I could do. Epoxy is the most touted way of protecting plywood from water, but other sites on the internet claim that multiple coats of primer/sealer (make sure it is a "sealer") can equal plain epoxy as an encapsulator to keep water out of the wood.

                T. Lee.
              • Julian Fouser
                T , I assume that you would use the right alloy for the boat . Just goolge aluminum marine alloy , and check it out . No problems at all. It seams that there
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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                  T , I assume that you would use the right alloy for the boat . Just goolge aluminum marine alloy , and check it out . No problems at all.

                  It seams that there are alot of people looking for problems today .
                  We need solutions to get the job done . I will be glad when the economy finally gets wrung out , and people get back to doing things .
                  A good cry is one thing , but this going on and on , is to much .

                  J

                  --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "nutty_boats" <nutty_boats@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > There is a member here, Chrisse (sp?) who is an experienced welder. In a previous thread she pointed out some of the issues with welding aluminum, even with the great technology available at low prices today.
                  > >
                  > > However, she pointed out that you can't just grab any aluminum wire and start welding. You must have the alloys match, and it is also easy to end up with a rather heavy boat by using heavy gauge stuff to make the welding easier for a newbie.
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, the skills to turn plywood/fiberglas/epoxy into a boat appear to be more easily developed than to do the same with a pile of aluminum.
                  > >
                  > > All good things to consider.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Don
                  >
                  > Another thing to consider, which makes me really hesitate using aluminum, is that it is one of the more active elements electro-chemically. I have heard enough horror stories of where the aluminum simply rotted away in salt water, even from something as simple as a coin accidentally dropped into a bilge. Even unevennesses in the alloy can cause corrosion.
                  >
                  > I haven't heard the same problems in fresh water.
                  >
                  > The bottom line is that an aluminum hull intended for salt water may need as much protection from the water as a steel or wooden hull. Since the methodologies for protecting wood from water are the most developed, especially for backyard builders, I personally plan on using plywood for any construction I could do. Epoxy is the most touted way of protecting plywood from water, but other sites on the internet claim that multiple coats of primer/sealer (make sure it is a "sealer") can equal plain epoxy as an encapsulator to keep water out of the wood.
                  >
                  > T. Lee.
                  >
                • Julian Fouser
                  Here is one, there is tons more info out there. http://www.keytometals.com/Article99.htm J
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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                    Here is one, there is tons more info out there.

                    http://www.keytometals.com/Article99.htm

                    J

                    > >
                    > > Another thing to consider, which makes me really hesitate using aluminum, is that it is one of the more active elements electro-chemically. I have heard enough horror stories of where the aluminum simply rotted away in salt water, even from something as simple as a coin accidentally dropped into a bilge. Even unevennesses in the alloy can cause corrosion.
                    > >
                    > > I haven't heard the same problems in fresh water.
                    > >
                    > > The bottom line is that an aluminum hull intended for salt water may need as much protection from the water as a steel or wooden hull. Since the methodologies for protecting wood from water are the most developed, especially for backyard builders, I personally plan on using plywood for any construction I could do. Epoxy is the most touted way of protecting plywood from water, but other sites on the internet claim that multiple coats of primer/sealer (make sure it is a "sealer") can equal plain epoxy as an encapsulator to keep water out of the wood.
                    > >
                    > > T. Lee.
                    > >
                    >
                  • Doug Pollard
                    ... Youre sort of right Julian You can learn to weld and some people pick it up pretty quick. I went through the welding school At the Bethlehem Steel ship
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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                      Julian Fouser wrote:
                      >
                      > I see a lot of welded aluminum things around , and I just dont believe
                      > that welding aluminum is to difficult to be learned . But then I pick
                      > things up easily , and this may not be the case with you. However
                      > there are many good books to read ,and classes that to take. Books
                      > should be enough if you have some comprehension . And it helps if you
                      > do not listen to those telling you it cant be done .
                      >
                      > J
                      >
                      > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:boatdesign%40yahoogroups.com>, "daschultz2000"
                      > <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > There is a member here, Chrisse (sp?) who is an experienced welder.
                      > In a previous thread she pointed out some of the issues with welding
                      > aluminum, even with the great technology available at low prices today.
                      > >
                      > > I already own a wirefeed welder with the gas option and a coil of
                      > aluminum wire. So I thought I was ready to cut up aluminum sheet per a
                      > nice "stitch and glue plywood" design, practice on the scrap, then
                      > tack weld up a nice boat. There are pics of an aluminum Bolger Diablo
                      > around.
                      > >
                      > > However, she pointed out that you can't just grab any aluminum wire
                      > and start welding. You must have the alloys match, and it is also easy
                      > to end up with a rather heavy boat by using heavy gauge stuff to make
                      > the welding easier for a newbie.
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, the skills to turn plywood/fiberglas/epoxy into a boat
                      > appear to be more easily developed than to do the same with a pile of
                      > aluminum.
                      > >
                      > > I've concluded if I decided aluminum was the direction I wanted to
                      > go, I would buy the aluminum, and cut it up as described, then pay a
                      > pro to do the welding, with me as the shop hand, doing setup. The pro
                      > might have to be someone using my welder, or a small business man with
                      > a truck who would come by and weld up what I've set up for that day,
                      > and leave.
                      > >
                      > > All good things to consider.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Don
                      > >
                      > > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:boatdesign%40yahoogroups.com>, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > The price of aluminum is back to where it was 10 years ago. So they
                      > > > may not be a bad deal . And for cast of 15 gal. of epoxy you can buy a
                      > > > good welder . Tough time to be selling boats , even in kit form . but
                      > > > I wish them luck .
                      > > >
                      > > > J
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      Youre sort of right Julian You can learn to weld and some people
                      pick it up pretty quick. I went through the welding school At the
                      Bethlehem Steel ship yard twice at 6 weeks each time. Like you I
                      generally pick up most things pretty quick. I can lay in a pretty good
                      weld on a seam when it's laying flat either stick welding or mig and tig
                      steel or aluminum. Now virtical and overhead is another story. Thin
                      metal without straining and buckling is anither. One of the big
                      problems that you are welding at the melting point of the plate and if
                      over heated it colapses on itself and makes a heck of a mess. Some
                      people pick it up fairly quick but even that is not quick when you are
                      wanting to build a boat.
                      The instructor at the shipyard said Doug Pollard you will never be a
                      welder as long as you have a hole in your'e rear end. Since then I have
                      left all but the crudest of welding jobs to those the know the art. I
                      have done a lot of tack welding but that is about it for me. I have
                      never for some reason been able to see the puddle well enough to get a
                      proper weld. You would be surprised how many welders aren't good enough
                      to make a good fuel tank.
                      I would hate to have to buy enough wire for me to learn to weld.

                      Doug
                    • john colley
                      would pop riveting the panels work,using flexable caulking in the joins? ________________________________ From: daschultz2000 To:
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 6, 2009
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                        would pop riveting the panels work,using flexable caulking in the joins?




                        ________________________________
                        From: daschultz2000 <daschultz8275@...>
                        To: boatdesign@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, 5 March, 2009 6:16:01 AM
                        Subject: [boatdesign] Re: boatdesign-relevant advertising by Yahoo!


                        There is a member here, Chrisse (sp?) who is an experienced welder. In a previous thread she pointed out some of the issues with welding aluminum, even with the great technology available at low prices today.

                        I already own a wirefeed welder with the gas option and a coil of aluminum wire. So I thought I was ready to cut up aluminum sheet per a nice "stitch and glue plywood" design, practice on the scrap, then tack weld up a nice boat. There are pics of an aluminum Bolger Diablo around.

                        However, she pointed out that you can't just grab any aluminum wire and start welding. You must have the alloys match, and it is also easy to end up with a rather heavy boat by using heavy gauge stuff to make the welding easier for a newbie.

                        Anyway, the skills to turn plywood/fiberglas/ epoxy into a boat appear to be more easily developed than to do the same with a pile of aluminum.

                        I've concluded if I decided aluminum was the direction I wanted to go, I would buy the aluminum, and cut it up as described, then pay a pro to do the welding, with me as the shop hand, doing setup. The pro might have to be someone using my welder, or a small business man with a truck who would come by and weld up what I've set up for that day, and leave.

                        All good things to consider.

                        Don

                        --- In boatdesign@yahoogro ups.com, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@... > wrote:
                        >
                        > The price of aluminum is back to where it was 10 years ago. So they
                        > may not be a bad deal . And for cast of 15 gal. of epoxy you can buy a
                        > good welder . Tough time to be selling boats , even in kit form . but
                        > I wish them luck .
                        >
                        > J





                        Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Julian Fouser
                        You could do that, but it is complex and the boat kits are not designed for it . So you would have to come up with a system for assembly . Why not heir a
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 6, 2009
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                          You could do that, but it is complex and the boat kits are not designed for it . So you would have to come up with a system for
                          assembly . Why not heir a welder to help you , with the condition that he teach you welding . Assuming that the boat is not frameless , there will be lots of short welds to practice on . And there must be a couple metal boat building forums to check out for help .
                          It also might be fun .


                          J


                          --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > would pop riveting the panels work,using flexable caulking in the joins?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: daschultz2000 <daschultz8275@...>
                          > To: boatdesign@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Thursday, 5 March, 2009 6:16:01 AM
                          > Subject: [boatdesign] Re: boatdesign-relevant advertising by Yahoo!
                          >
                          >
                          > There is a member here, Chrisse (sp?) who is an experienced welder. In a previous thread she pointed out some of the issues with welding aluminum, even with the great technology available at low prices today.
                          >
                          > I already own a wirefeed welder with the gas option and a coil of aluminum wire. So I thought I was ready to cut up aluminum sheet per a nice "stitch and glue plywood" design, practice on the scrap, then tack weld up a nice boat. There are pics of an aluminum Bolger Diablo around.
                          >
                          > However, she pointed out that you can't just grab any aluminum wire and start welding. You must have the alloys match, and it is also easy to end up with a rather heavy boat by using heavy gauge stuff to make the welding easier for a newbie.
                          >
                          > Anyway, the skills to turn plywood/fiberglas/ epoxy into a boat appear to be more easily developed than to do the same with a pile of aluminum.
                          >
                          > I've concluded if I decided aluminum was the direction I wanted to go, I would buy the aluminum, and cut it up as described, then pay a pro to do the welding, with me as the shop hand, doing setup. The pro might have to be someone using my welder, or a small business man with a truck who would come by and weld up what I've set up for that day, and leave.
                          >
                          > All good things to consider.
                          >
                          > Don
                          >
                          > --- In boatdesign@yahoogro ups.com, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@ > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > The price of aluminum is back to where it was 10 years ago. So they
                          > > may not be a bad deal . And for cast of 15 gal. of epoxy you can buy a
                          > > good welder . Tough time to be selling boats , even in kit form . but
                          > > I wish them luck .
                          > >
                          > > J
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Paul Esterle
                          Only if you used closed end pop rivets. Actually, if you have access to an air compressor, bucking a solid rivets isn t hard and is cheaper... Paul Esterle
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 6, 2009
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                            Only if you used closed end pop rivets. Actually, if you have access to
                            an air compressor, bucking a solid rivets isn't hard and is cheaper...

                            Paul Esterle
                            Freelance Boating Writer
                            "Capt'n Pauley's Place"
                            The Virtual Boatyard
                            www.thevirtualboatyard.com


                            john colley wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > would pop riveting the panels work,using flexable caulking in the joins?
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: daschultz2000 <daschultz8275@...
                            > <mailto:daschultz8275%40sbcglobal.net>>
                            > To: boatdesign@yahoogroups.com <mailto:boatdesign%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, 5 March, 2009 6:16:01 AM
                            > Subject: [boatdesign] Re: boatdesign-relevant advertising by Yahoo!
                            >
                            > There is a member here, Chrisse (sp?) who is an experienced welder. In a
                            > previous thread she pointed out some of the issues with welding
                            > aluminum, even with the great technology available at low prices today.
                            >
                            > I already own a wirefeed welder with the gas option and a coil of
                            > aluminum wire. So I thought I was ready to cut up aluminum sheet per a
                            > nice "stitch and glue plywood" design, practice on the scrap, then tack
                            > weld up a nice boat. There are pics of an aluminum Bolger Diablo around.
                            >
                            > However, she pointed out that you can't just grab any aluminum wire and
                            > start welding. You must have the alloys match, and it is also easy to
                            > end up with a rather heavy boat by using heavy gauge stuff to make the
                            > welding easier for a newbie.
                            >
                            > Anyway, the skills to turn plywood/fiberglas/ epoxy into a boat appear
                            > to be more easily developed than to do the same with a pile of aluminum.
                            >
                            > I've concluded if I decided aluminum was the direction I wanted to go, I
                            > would buy the aluminum, and cut it up as described, then pay a pro to do
                            > the welding, with me as the shop hand, doing setup. The pro might have
                            > to be someone using my welder, or a small business man with a truck who
                            > would come by and weld up what I've set up for that day, and leave.
                            >
                            > All good things to consider.
                            >
                            > Don
                            >
                            > --- In boatdesign@yahoogro ups.com, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@... > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > The price of aluminum is back to where it was 10 years ago. So they
                            > > may not be a bad deal . And for cast of 15 gal. of epoxy you can buy a
                            > > good welder . Tough time to be selling boats , even in kit form . but
                            > > I wish them luck .
                            > >
                            > > J
                            >
                            > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take
                            > a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox
                            > <http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox>
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                          • nutty_boats
                            Yet even this site recommends that the corrosion resistant aluminum alloys be protected when used in sea water. T. Lee.
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 9, 2009
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                              Yet even this site recommends that the corrosion resistant aluminum alloys be protected when used in sea water.

                              T. Lee.

                              --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Here is one, there is tons more info out there.
                              >
                              > http://www.keytometals.com/Article99.htm
                              >
                              > J
                              >
                              > > >
                              > > > Another thing to consider, which makes me really hesitate using aluminum, is that it is one of the more active elements electro-chemically. I have heard enough horror stories of where the aluminum simply rotted away in salt water, even from something as simple as a coin accidentally dropped into a bilge. Even unevennesses in the alloy can cause corrosion.
                              > > >
                              > > > I haven't heard the same problems in fresh water.
                              > > >
                              > > > The bottom line is that an aluminum hull intended for salt water may need as much protection from the water as a steel or wooden hull. Since the methodologies for protecting wood from water are the most developed, especially for backyard builders, I personally plan on using plywood for any construction I could do. Epoxy is the most touted way of protecting plywood from water, but other sites on the internet claim that multiple coats of primer/sealer (make sure it is a "sealer") can equal plain epoxy as an encapsulator to keep water out of the wood.
                              > > >
                              > > > T. Lee.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                              Ever hear of paint. Aluminum boats that are intended for salt water for long periods are painted. At least in the NW. Jon
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 9, 2009
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                                Ever hear of paint. Aluminum boats that are intended for salt water for long periods are painted. At least in the NW.

                                Jon

                                --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "nutty_boats" <nutty_boats@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Yet even this site recommends that the corrosion resistant aluminum alloys be protected when used in sea water.
                                >
                                > T. Lee.
                              • doug6949
                                ... I ve welded aluminum for more than twenty years. You are correct in that it is not impossible to learn. Most anyone can get two pieces to stick together
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 14, 2009
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                                  --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I see a lot of welded aluminum things around , and I just dont believe that welding aluminum is to difficult to be learned . But then I pick things up easily , and this may not be the case with you. However there are many good books to read ,and classes that to take. Books should be enough if you have some comprehension . And it helps if you do not listen to those telling you it cant be done .
                                  >
                                  > J

                                  I've welded aluminum for more than twenty years. You are correct in that it is not impossible to learn. Most anyone can get two pieces to stick together with some instruction and practice. Some pick it up better than others. I shake like jelly so it doesn't come natural for me.

                                  The problem is that building a boat in aluminum involves much more than running a good bead. Seaming a large sheet aluminum structure involves considerable trial and error experience to avoid residual stresses. I've assembled some large aluminum box structures and the first unit always looked awful.

                                  We employ a welder that previously worked in a boatyard in LA, building aluminum vessels. He said all seams were joined using a predetermined and very complex sequence. With aluminum running $2.50 a pound I certainly wouldn't want to develop this sequence on my own.

                                  There is another problem. Although many low end mig welders will run aluminum, they aren't very good at it. Aluminum .035 wire will birdnest in a regular mig gun. Virtually all machines built to run aluminum use push-pull guns. My push-pull gun alone cost $1200.

                                  You can get a spool gun for around $600. That still leaves the problem of current requirements. My $2500 mig welder is rated at 300 amps and it is just adequate. Run ten pounds of .035 aluminum wire through a Home Depot welder and you will fry it.

                                  So the bottom line is yes, you can build a welded aluminum boat. I doubt, however, that most home builders would be happy with the result.

                                  Doug H.
                                • Doug Pollard
                                  ... I am one of those that cannot weld. AS a kid I went to work in a ship yard and went through welding school twice and was finally told I would never be a
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 14, 2009
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                                    doug6949 wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com
                                    > <mailto:boatdesign%40yahoogroups.com>, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I see a lot of welded aluminum things around , and I just dont
                                    > believe that welding aluminum is to difficult to be learned . But then
                                    > I pick things up easily , and this may not be the case with you.
                                    > However there are many good books to read ,and classes that to take.
                                    > Books should be enough if you have some comprehension . And it helps
                                    > if you do not listen to those telling you it cant be done .
                                    > >
                                    > > J
                                    >
                                    > I've welded aluminum for more than twenty years. You are correct in
                                    > that it is not impossible to learn. Most anyone can get two pieces to
                                    > stick together with some instruction and practice. Some pick it up
                                    > better than others. I shake like jelly so it doesn't come natural for me.
                                    >
                                    > The problem is that building a boat in aluminum involves much more
                                    > than running a good bead. Seaming a large sheet aluminum structure
                                    > involves considerable trial and error experience to avoid residual
                                    > stresses. I've assembled some large aluminum box structures and the
                                    > first unit always looked awful.
                                    >
                                    > We employ a welder that previously worked in a boatyard in LA,
                                    > building aluminum vessels. He said all seams were joined using a
                                    > predetermined and very complex sequence. With aluminum running $2.50 a
                                    > pound I certainly wouldn't want to develop this sequence on my own.
                                    >
                                    > There is another problem. Although many low end mig welders will run
                                    > aluminum, they aren't very good at it. Aluminum .035 wire will
                                    > birdnest in a regular mig gun. Virtually all machines built to run
                                    > aluminum use push-pull guns. My push-pull gun alone cost $1200.
                                    >
                                    > You can get a spool gun for around $600. That still leaves the problem
                                    > of current requirements. My $2500 mig welder is rated at 300 amps and
                                    > it is just adequate. Run ten pounds of .035 aluminum wire through a
                                    > Home Depot welder and you will fry it.
                                    >
                                    > So the bottom line is yes, you can build a welded aluminum boat. I
                                    > doubt, however, that most home builders would be happy with the result.
                                    >
                                    > Doug H.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    I am one of those that cannot weld. AS a kid I went to work in a
                                    ship yard and went through welding school twice and was finally told I
                                    would never be a welder. I became a machinist and was so good at it
                                    that I finally was not allowed to do machine work. I wound up running
                                    the shop. Thinking back I really was not very good at being boss.
                                    The person in my shop that I had the most respect for, was our
                                    welder he was of course certified. He welded parts that often went into
                                    wind tunnels where anything that broke and went down the tunnel would
                                    wipe half the city of Hamptom Va. out. This work as well as pressure
                                    vessels were all xrayed.
                                    Welding a boat is not even 10% as dificult but it does require
                                    experience Every weld warps something, just knowing how much and where
                                    takes a lot of experience. In this there is no substitue for experience.
                                    Yes I think most of us can teach ourselves to weld but will we get
                                    desirable results maybe not. I would not like to think about, maybe
                                    not, while at sea a hundred miles from shore.
                                    My Welder spent a lot of time picking out our mig welder. We had
                                    people bringing machines in the shop demonstrating them and he tried
                                    several before he told me what he wanted so there are differences that
                                    I don't claim to understand.
                                    I know this, I have seen failed aluminum diesel tanks. I think
                                    some of these guys who claim to be welders do not use filler metals but
                                    only smear the aluminum back and forth across the joint with a torch.
                                    Some of these welds are only 1/64 of and inch thick those that do this
                                    are not poor welders they are people that don't care. There are some of
                                    those out there. Because I had an aluminum boat I was questioned about
                                    some of these tanks over the years.
                                    Anyway, because I know a lot about aluminum boats I might use a tig
                                    welder to tack weld but would get a good pro to run the seams and
                                    structural stuff. Even with this I am taking the choices of what to
                                    weld and where from the guy who knows.

                                    Doug
                                  • a v
                                    Good comments.. I know of beautiful looking welds done on aluminium boats that failed at vewy unfortunate times. I fetched a few crew off a beautiful craft
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 15, 2009
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                                      Good comments..
                                      I know of beautiful looking welds done on aluminium boats that failed at vewy "unfortunate" times. I fetched a few crew off a beautiful craft in sone stiff wind a few years ago. The owner looked at the welds, said they looked good bun never had anyone check them ultrasonically. Result, lots of money lost and it could have been worse, people could have died..
                                       




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Julian Fouser
                                      A little more food for thought. http://www.kastenmarine.com/aluminum.htm http://ezinearticles.com/?Aluminum-or-Steel-Sailboats---Which-is-Better?&id=530168
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 17, 2009
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                                        A little more food for thought.

                                        http://www.kastenmarine.com/aluminum.htm

                                        http://ezinearticles.com/?Aluminum-or-Steel-Sailboats---Which-is-Better?&id=530168

                                        http://www.winninghoff.com/common/index.php?com=WINN&div=AA&nav=AA&page=A91

                                        http://milliej.com/Construction_Millie_J.html

                                        http://www.lenblower.com/Gallery/album03/Mickeyboat5011

                                        http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/BBALUMINUM.htm

                                        http://sailnortheast.com/Philbrook/index.html

                                        J


                                        --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, a v <andrethesailor@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Good comments..
                                        > I know of beautiful looking welds done on aluminium boats that failed at vewy "unfortunate" times. I fetched a few crew off a beautiful craft in sone stiff wind a few years ago. The owner looked at the welds, said they looked good bun never had anyone check them ultrasonically. Result, lots of money lost and it could have been worse, people could have died..
                                        >  
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Doug Pollard
                                        ... This I think is sort of true but not necessarily so. In steel but maybe a lesser degree in aluminum it seems that it is easier to lay in a pretty weld if
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 17, 2009
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                                          Julian Fouser wrote:
                                          >
                                          > A little more food for thought.
                                          >
                                          > http://www.kastenmarine.com/aluminum.htm
                                          > <http://www.kastenmarine.com/aluminum.htm>
                                          >
                                          > http://ezinearticles.com/?Aluminum-or-Steel-Sailboats---Which-is-Better?&id=530168
                                          > <http://ezinearticles.com/?Aluminum-or-Steel-Sailboats---Which-is-Better?&id=530168>
                                          >
                                          > http://www.winninghoff.com/common/index.php?com=WINN&div=AA&nav=AA&page=A91
                                          > <http://www.winninghoff.com/common/index.php?com=WINN&div=AA&nav=AA&page=A91>
                                          >
                                          > http://milliej.com/Construction_Millie_J.html
                                          > <http://milliej.com/Construction_Millie_J.html>
                                          >
                                          > http://www.lenblower.com/Gallery/album03/Mickeyboat5011
                                          > <http://www.lenblower.com/Gallery/album03/Mickeyboat5011>
                                          >
                                          > http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/BBALUMINUM.htm
                                          > <http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/BBALUMINUM.htm>
                                          >
                                          > http://sailnortheast.com/Philbrook/index.html
                                          > <http://sailnortheast.com/Philbrook/index.html>
                                          >
                                          > J
                                          >
                                          > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <mailto:boatdesign%40yahoogroups.com>, a v <andrethesailor@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Good comments..
                                          > > I know of beautiful looking welds done on aluminium boats that
                                          > failed at vewy "unfortunate" times. I fetched a few crew off a
                                          > beautiful craft in sone stiff wind a few years ago. The owner looked
                                          > at the welds, said they looked good bun never had anyone check them
                                          > ultrasonically. Result, lots of money lost and it could have been
                                          > worse, people could have died..
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          This I think is sort of true but not necessarily so. In steel but maybe
                                          a lesser degree in aluminum it seems that it is easier to lay in a
                                          pretty weld if the heat is turned down, This means the weld is layed
                                          on top and is not properly burned in. The welder does not have to
                                          worry about undercutting. When I see welding that is beautiful I wonder
                                          if the guy who did it is really good, or is it a weak weld. This is
                                          likely an injustice but I always look at those really beautiful welds
                                          with just a little bit of mistrust. There is everything to be said
                                          about knowing you are getting proper penetration when welding and at the
                                          same time at that point you are likely to get the most warpage to
                                          compensate for.

                                          Doug
                                        • doug6949
                                          ... This first url contains some over-broad statements. It is misleading to say without qualification that aluminum compares with steel for yield strength. The
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Mar 17, 2009
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                                            --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > A little more food for thought.
                                            >
                                            > http://www.kastenmarine.com/aluminum.htm

                                            This first url contains some over-broad statements. It is misleading to say without qualification that aluminum compares with steel for yield strength. The author is comparing hardened aluminum with dead soft mild steel. Nobody builds welded hulls with fully hardened aluminum.

                                            5086-T116 (fully hardened) aluminum loses all of its hardening in the heat affected zone of the weld. Aluminum rated at 42ksi yield isn't much good if the yield point at the seams is only 17ksi. That is the yield strength of dead soft 5086.

                                            Aluminum is subject to early fatigue failure when stressed near it's elastic limit. This is not the case for mild steel.

                                            Aluminum certainly makes a better fresh water hull than steel does. It has more than it's share of problems in saltwater though. The story about the penny in the hull is not without basis.

                                            Doug H.
                                          • Julian Fouser
                                            Doug , we could go on and on with this , but I will end with this . Like building anything , One should make a good study of the material and assembly method .
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Mar 18, 2009
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                                              Doug , we could go on and on with this , but I will end with this .
                                              Like building anything , One should make a good study of the material and assembly method . Then practice the method of assembly and test it to failure . and of course recheck .

                                              J

                                              --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "doug6949" <doug6949@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > A little more food for thought.
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.kastenmarine.com/aluminum.htm
                                              >
                                              > This first url contains some over-broad statements. It is misleading to say without qualification that aluminum compares with steel for yield strength. The author is comparing hardened aluminum with dead soft mild steel. Nobody builds welded hulls with fully hardened aluminum.
                                              >
                                              > 5086-T116 (fully hardened) aluminum loses all of its hardening in the heat affected zone of the weld. Aluminum rated at 42ksi yield isn't much good if the yield point at the seams is only 17ksi. That is the yield strength of dead soft 5086.
                                              >
                                              > Aluminum is subject to early fatigue failure when stressed near it's elastic limit. This is not the case for mild steel.
                                              >
                                              > Aluminum certainly makes a better fresh water hull than steel does. It has more than it's share of problems in saltwater though. The story about the penny in the hull is not without basis.
                                              >
                                              > Doug H.
                                              >
                                            • doug6949
                                              Couldn t have said it better myself.
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Mar 19, 2009
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                                                Couldn't have said it better myself.

                                                --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Doug , we could go on and on with this , but I will end with this .
                                                > Like building anything , One should make a good study of the material and assembly method . Then practice the method of assembly and test it to failure . and of course recheck .
                                                >
                                                > J
                                                >
                                                > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "doug6949" <doug6949@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Fouser" <jfouser@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > A little more food for thought.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > http://www.kastenmarine.com/aluminum.htm
                                                > >
                                                > > This first url contains some over-broad statements. It is misleading to say without qualification that aluminum compares with steel for yield strength. The author is comparing hardened aluminum with dead soft mild steel. Nobody builds welded hulls with fully hardened aluminum.
                                                > >
                                                > > 5086-T116 (fully hardened) aluminum loses all of its hardening in the heat affected zone of the weld. Aluminum rated at 42ksi yield isn't much good if the yield point at the seams is only 17ksi. That is the yield strength of dead soft 5086.
                                                > >
                                                > > Aluminum is subject to early fatigue failure when stressed near it's elastic limit. This is not the case for mild steel.
                                                > >
                                                > > Aluminum certainly makes a better fresh water hull than steel does. It has more than it's share of problems in saltwater though. The story about the penny in the hull is not without basis.
                                                > >
                                                > > Doug H.
                                                > >
                                                >
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