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Re: Perfect boat (maybe)

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  • Gavin
    ... on ... He d do it for you, of course! ... Michalak ... We d better dig out our text books for suitable rules. Where the hell did I put Skene s? A scow bow
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 27, 1999
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      >The only problem with Pete's Boat is that it is still a little large. If I
      >knew what I was doing, I could do the V entry thing and broaden the stern
      on
      >one of his smaller boats.


      He'd do it for you, of course!

      >This may be a little more on subject of this DG: What are tha relative
      >merrits of V entry, and multiple chines on a scow/pram type of hull, in
      >terms of handling rough going. What I seem to get from reading Mr.
      Michalak
      >is that multichines improve a sailboat, and the V entry improves a
      >powerboat. Any thoughts?


      We'd better dig out our text books for suitable rules. Where the hell did I
      put Skene's?

      A scow bow is bound to pound in a powered boat sailing upright, but less
      likely to do so under sail with the boat heeling a bit. How often will you
      motor in waves? Where there are waves, there is likely to be wind, but there
      will be times when you are in a hurry and a sail isn't going to help you.
      Mike Goodwin will have a view about that question, I'd guess.

      Gav
    • Gavin
      ... Again, I d suggest looking up Sucher. Many of his flat-bottomed designs have an outboard in a well placed some way in from the stern. It must be right to
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 27, 1999
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        >Could we talk a little about placing auxiliary motors? In the case of a
        >sailboat with more that the usual power, does the placement of a large
        >outboard on the transom spoil the weight distribution? Would a small
        >inboard low, amidships be better? Of course it would, but then you have to
        >deal with prop drag. Maybe a well for the OB? How far forward could this
        >be placed? Is the weight still too high? Outboard power boats tend to have
        >broader and deeper sterns to float the extra weight, would this spoil the
        >sailing characteristics? Any thoughts at all.


        Again, I'd suggest looking up Sucher. Many of his flat-bottomed designs have
        an outboard in a well placed some way in from the stern. It must be right
        to put the weight near the middle of the craft.

        Gav
      • Chuck Leinweber
        ... I would like to point out that I am only nuts about boats...well there might be a few other things.... ... And as Phil Bolger likes to point out; when a
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 1, 1999
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          >
          > Well, just because I'm nuts is no reason to believe that others
          > aren't nuts also...

          I would like to point out that I am only nuts about boats...well there might
          be a few other things....
          >
          > Re "multichines improve a sailboat, and the V entry improves a
          > powerboat." - opinions vary. Reuel Parker, he of the many
          > sharpies, just adores a hard chine, and conversely lots of good
          > things are written about snubby-nosed power garveys (garvies?)
          > for example. Not sure I understand what the source of all the
          > disagreements (if that's what they are) is.
          >
          And as Phil Bolger likes to point out; when a sharpie is sailing on its
          chine, it is effectively a deep Vee. Btw, Lew, do you remember who it was
          that said the nice things about power garveys? I would like to look it up,
          and read about it.

          Could we talk a little about placing auxiliary motors? In the case of a
          sailboat with more that the usual power, does the placement of a large
          outboard on the transom spoil the weight distribution? Would a small
          inboard low, amidships be better? Of course it would, but then you have to
          deal with prop drag. Maybe a well for the OB? How far forward could this
          be placed? Is the weight still too high? Outboard power boats tend to have
          broader and deeper sterns to float the extra weight, would this spoil the
          sailing characteristics? Any thoughts at all.

          Chuck
        • kandlew
          ... For one, Thomas Firth Jones - he has a chapter on them in Boats To Go (previously published as Low-Resistance Boats). He presents both power and sailing
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 1, 1999
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            > And as Phil Bolger likes to point out; when a sharpie is sailing on its
            > chine, it is effectively a deep Vee. Btw, Lew, do you remember who it was
            > that said the nice things about power garveys? I would like to look it up,
            > and read about it.

            For one, Thomas Firth Jones - he has a chapter on them in Boats
            To Go (previously published as Low-Resistance Boats). He
            presents both power and sailing garveys, noting that a garvey is
            just a pram with a spoon bow. The one with the wheel on the
            bottom (okayfine...) has a pretty V'd entry.
          • Jeff Gilbert
            Aux motors: I saw a photo of an Uffa Fox runabout with an outboard in a well about 1/3 of the way back. The helm was behind at about 2/3 bow-stern distance.
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 1, 1999
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              Aux motors:
              I saw a photo of an Uffa Fox runabout with an outboard in a well about 1/3
              of the way back. The helm was behind at about 2/3 bow-stern distance. It
              would be like being towed about! Whatever, the design was successful.
              I like wells as they stop a lot of noise. Also if you haul the motor out and
              replace it with a large mesh cage they make a great shower or bath or place
              to put your toddler without having him carried off by piranahs!
              Jeff

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Gavin <gmatkin@...>
              To: boatdesign@onelist.com <boatdesign@onelist.com>
              Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 3:23 AM
              Subject: Re: [boatdesign] Perfect boat (maybe)


              >From: "Gavin" <gmatkin@...>
              >
              >
              >>Could we talk a little about placing auxiliary motors? In the case of a
              >>sailboat with more that the usual power, does the placement of a large
              >>outboard on the transom spoil the weight distribution? Would a small
              >>inboard low, amidships be better? Of course it would, but then you have
              to
              >>deal with prop drag. Maybe a well for the OB? How far forward could this
              >>be placed? Is the weight still too high? Outboard power boats tend to
              have
              >>broader and deeper sterns to float the extra weight, would this spoil the
              >>sailing characteristics? Any thoughts at all.
              >
              >
              >Again, I'd suggest looking up Sucher. Many of his flat-bottomed designs
              have
              >an outboard in a well placed some way in from the stern. It must be right
              >to put the weight near the middle of the craft.
              >
              >Gav
              >
              >
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            • Jeff Gilbert
              Placing auxiliaries: For a smallish ballasted mono the new generation of electric inboards have a load of appeal. They are quiet, reliable, efficient,
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 1, 1999
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                Placing auxiliaries:
                For a smallish ballasted mono the new generation of electric inboards have a
                load of appeal. They are quiet, reliable, efficient, pollution free but
                above all they are TINY, smaller than this monitor I stare at for far too
                long!
                The runner-up (should have won in my opinion) in the recently
                published(april 1999 issue) Yachting Monthly magazine "Starter Boat" design
                contest uses an electric inboard to good effect.
                The big complaint of course is the weight (+danger) of the batteries.
                However in a ballasted boat they not omly provide same, it is moveable and
                can be used to fine tune the trim. Also the new Absorbed Glass Matting
                batteries have the acid contained in the matting...they are waterproof,
                shockproof & generally idiotproof as well as holding charge longer &
                charging up more rapidly. Of course they are not cheap, but they are
                affordable. A great read on this general topic is
                http://freshwaterseas.com/V02N04Apr99/Story1.asp

                About the competition winner mentioned above.....part of the brief was that
                the boat could be built for under 25,000 English quid. I believe that the
                winning design:

                http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/exit/backym.cgi?http://www.fparch.co.uk/space/
                cant be built for that price, or anything like it, anywhere on this
                planet! Too many complex one-off mouldings, not to mention tables
                retracting into the floor, emergency systems popping out automatically with
                all the attendant in-built hardware.
                Other points 1/ "Space" is too wide to trail legally.
                2/ I'm not sure I'd like all that
                "flexi-space" with a heavy following sea.
                This is not sour grapes, its a great design, beautifully presented.
                Any other opinions??
                Jeff Gilbert
                Canberra,
                Australia

                PPPPP

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Gavin <gmatkin@...>
                To: boatdesign@onelist.com <boatdesign@onelist.com>
                Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 3:23 AM
                Subject: Re: [boatdesign] Perfect boat (maybe)


                >From: "Gavin" <gmatkin@...>
                >
                >
                >>Could we talk a little about placing auxiliary motors? In the case of a
                >>sailboat with more that the usual power, does the placement of a large
                >>outboard on the transom spoil the weight distribution? Would a small
                >>inboard low, amidships be better? Of course it would, but then you have
                to
                >>deal with prop drag. Maybe a well for the OB? How far forward could this
                >>be placed? Is the weight still too high? Outboard power boats tend to
                have
                >>broader and deeper sterns to float the extra weight, would this spoil the
                >>sailing characteristics? Any thoughts at all.
                >
                >
                >Again, I'd suggest looking up Sucher. Many of his flat-bottomed designs
                have
                >an outboard in a well placed some way in from the stern. It must be right
                >to put the weight near the middle of the craft.
                >
                >Gav
                >
                >
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                >
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                >...ONElist is home to the liveliest discussions on the Internet!
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              • MIKE GOODWIN
                ... there ... Sad but true there are times on Chesapeake Bay and the Carolina sounds when there is wind and you must motor ,why the devil you say . It is not
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 2, 1999
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                  >A scow bow is bound to pound in a powered boat sailing upright, but less
                  >likely to do so under sail with the boat heeling a bit. How often will you
                  >motor in waves? Where there are waves, there is likely to be wind, but
                  there
                  >will be times when you are in a hurry and a sail isn't going to help you.
                  >Mike Goodwin will have a view about that question, I'd guess.
                  >
                  >Gav

                  Sad but true there are times on Chesapeake Bay and the Carolina sounds when
                  there is wind and you must motor ,why the devil you say .
                  It is not uncommon to have a destination to windward and a narrow channel
                  leading through a shoal or shallows filled with submersed obstacles that
                  could hole your boat ( my Dad was sunk on a 60' tug in Ches. Bay in 12' of
                  water , they hit a broken off pound net pole that impaled them and held them
                  in place . They spent the night on top of the wheelhouse .) These channels
                  can be very narrow and it is not possible to tack up them in a real blow
                  because of the size of the waves rolling over the shallows. I have bottomed
                  out in 8' of water while only drawing 4'2" going across some shallows to
                  save a few hours but that's pounding of another sort.

                  Mike




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                • Chuck Leinweber
                  ... a ... This is way too obvious. The batteries are lined up where the lead ballast would normally go, like in a box type keel. Then add photovoltiac wing
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 2, 1999
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                    > Placing auxiliaries:
                    > For a smallish ballasted mono the new generation of electric inboards have
                    a
                    > load of appeal. They are quiet, reliable, efficient, pollution free but
                    > above all they are TINY, smaller than this monitor I stare at for far too
                    > long!

                    This is way too obvious. The batteries are lined up where the lead ballast
                    would normally go, like in a box type keel. Then add photovoltiac wing sails
                    like the ones in the freshwaterseas link below, and viola. Thanks for the
                    great ideas, and the great links too, Jeff.

                    > The runner-up (should have won in my opinion) in the recently
                    > published(april 1999 issue) Yachting Monthly magazine "Starter Boat"
                    design
                    > contest uses an electric inboard to good effect.
                    > The big complaint of course is the weight (+danger) of the batteries.
                    > However in a ballasted boat they not omly provide same, it is moveable and
                    > can be used to fine tune the trim. Also the new Absorbed Glass Matting
                    > batteries have the acid contained in the matting...they are waterproof,
                    > shockproof & generally idiotproof as well as holding charge longer &
                    > charging up more rapidly. Of course they are not cheap, but they are
                    > affordable. A great read on this general topic is
                    > http://freshwaterseas.com/V02N04Apr99/Story1.asp
                    >
                    > About the competition winner mentioned above.....part of the brief was
                    that
                    > the boat could be built for under 25,000 English quid. I believe that
                    the
                    > winning design:
                    >
                    > http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/exit/backym.cgi?http://www.fparch.co.uk/space/
                    > cant be built for that price, or anything like it, anywhere on this
                    > planet! Too many complex one-off mouldings, not to mention tables
                    > retracting into the floor, emergency systems popping out automatically
                    with
                    > all the attendant in-built hardware.

                    I agree with you about the cost & etc. but still it is a nice website, and
                    an interesting boat.

                    Chuck the Duck
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