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Re: Sharpie 16 Eastern Shore Stickup

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  • pvanderwaart
    ... In general, the boom overhangs the transom in these boats, so it would have to be running backstays.
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 1, 2004
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      > Would seem like a backstay would be a heck of alot easier :)

      In general, the boom overhangs the transom in these boats, so it
      would have to be running backstays.
    • Lew Clayman
      Trad boats on the Chesapeake often featured extreme rake of masts. I don t know why that is, but it s a variable that was exploited in this region. It s a
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 1, 2004
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        Trad boats on the Chesapeake often featured extreme
        rake of masts. I don't know why that is, but it's a
        variable that was exploited in this region.

        It's a big, often shallow bay, noted for low winds and
        long fetches which create lots of chop, which (until
        the pollution days) was a hugely productive and
        competitive fishery with some large consumption
        centers (read: hungry cities). I'm sure that drove
        things, but I don't know exactly how.

        --- pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > > Would seem like a backstay would be a heck of alot
        > easier :)
        >
        > In general, the boom overhangs the transom in these
        > boats, so it
        > would have to be running backstays.
        >
        >
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      • Bill Hamm
        Running backs are kinda a PITA but they make alot more sense than adding another mast. Bill H.
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 1, 2004
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          Running backs are kinda a PITA but they make alot more sense than
          adding another mast.

          Bill H.

          > > Would seem like a backstay would be a heck of alot easier :)
          >
          > In general, the boom overhangs the transom in these boats, so it
          > would have to be running backstays.
        • Bill Hamm
          Rake had multiple reasons: it made the sails shape better, it made the boom self centering (good thing with really long booms), it tended to lower the CE and
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 1, 2004
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            Rake had multiple reasons: it made the sails shape better, it made
            the boom self centering (good thing with really long booms), it
            tended to lower the CE and it made the stays more effective, most
            work boats didn't run spreaders so shorter stays were stronger stays.

            Bill H.


            > Trad boats on the Chesapeake often featured extreme
            > rake of masts. I don't know why that is, but it's a
            > variable that was exploited in this region.
            >
            > It's a big, often shallow bay, noted for low winds and
            > long fetches which create lots of chop, which (until
            > the pollution days) was a hugely productive and
            > competitive fishery with some large consumption
            > centers (read: hungry cities). I'm sure that drove
            > things, but I don't know exactly how.
            >
            > --- pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > > Would seem like a backstay would be a heck of alot
            > > easier :)
            > >
            > > In general, the boom overhangs the transom in these
            > > boats, so it
            > > would have to be running backstays.
            > >
            > >
            > >
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          • Lew Clayman
            ... I m sure that s all true, and I can see why, in a low-wind area with lengthy transits and competition for speed, a lot of sail was necessary. The fastest
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 2, 2004
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              --- Bill Hamm <griff10us@...> wrote:
              > Rake had multiple reasons: it made the sails shape
              > better, it made the boom self centering (good thing
              > with really long booms), it tended to lower the CE
              > and it made the stays more effective, most work
              > boats didn't run spreaders so shorter stays were
              > stronger stays.

              I'm sure that's all true, and I can see why, in a
              low-wind area with lengthy transits and competition
              for speed, a lot of sail was necessary. The fastest
              way to get the catch to market was, of course, to go
              fastest.

              That said, surely the Chesapeake was not the only such
              area. Long Island Sound springs to mind, for example.

              Why then would only the Chessie sailors have exploited
              this one variable, rake, so profoundly?

              -Lew





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            • Gavin Atkin
              Rake looks fabulous, and I recognise that it has certain advantages. But I also see disadvantages in a low-wind area: for example, with a long heavy boom and
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 2, 2004
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                Rake looks fabulous, and I recognise that it has certain advantages. But I
                also see disadvantages in a low-wind area: for example, with a long heavy
                boom and a lot of rake, how do you prevent the boom from falling to the
                middle of the boat in light winds? I imagine you'd have to employ another
                spar of some kind to prop the boom out...

                Exactly how low-wind is the Chesapeake? Do I remember correctly that it Is
                an area that has many afternoon squalls with sudden strong winds? Might they
                have something to do with this business of rake in skipjacks etc?

                Gavin
              • pvanderwaart
                ... There are also the needs of the fishery to consider. The rake puts the butt of the mast well forward, clearing the deck for oysters. Dredging for oysters
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 2, 2004
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                  > I'm sure that's all true, and I can see why, in a
                  > low-wind area with lengthy transits and competition
                  > for speed, a lot of sail was necessary. The fastest
                  > way to get the catch to market was, of course, to go
                  > fastest.

                  There are also the needs of the fishery to consider. The rake puts
                  the butt of the mast well forward, clearing the deck for oysters.
                  Dredging for oysters requires power on a reach and some control of
                  speed.
                • hal
                  ... Rake with a long boom will keep the boom tip out of the water when heeled. hal
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 2, 2004
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                    On Dec 2, 2004, at 7:36 AM, Gavin Atkin wrote:

                    >
                    > Rake looks fabulous, and I recognise that it has certain advantages.
                    > But I
                    > also see disadvantages in a low-wind area: for example, with a long
                    > heavy
                    > boom and a lot of rake, how do you prevent the boom from falling to the
                    > middle of the boat in light winds? I imagine you'd have to employ
                    > another
                    > spar of some kind to prop the boom out...

                    Rake with a long boom will keep the boom tip out of the
                    water when heeled.

                    hal
                  • David Lightfoot
                    I have also heard that the rake required the boom to be angled upward so that it is horizontal when centered. This has the effect of raising the end when the
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 2, 2004
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                      I have also heard that the rake required the boom to be angled upward so
                      that it is horizontal when centered. This has the effect of raising the
                      end when the boom is out to the side, keeping it out of the water on a
                      heel. I don't have such a rake to any mast and I only *think* it makes sense.

                      David Lightfoot

                      At 05:55 AM 12/2/2004, you wrote:

                      >--- Bill Hamm <griff10us@...> wrote:
                      > > Rake had multiple reasons: it made the sails shape
                      > > better, it made the boom self centering (good thing
                      > > with really long booms), it tended to lower the CE
                      > > and it made the stays more effective, most work
                      > > boats didn't run spreaders so shorter stays were
                      > > stronger stays.
                      >
                      >I'm sure that's all true, and I can see why, in a
                      >low-wind area with lengthy transits and competition
                      >for speed, a lot of sail was necessary. The fastest
                      >way to get the catch to market was, of course, to go
                      >fastest.
                      >
                      >That said, surely the Chesapeake was not the only such
                      >area. Long Island Sound springs to mind, for example.
                      >
                      >Why then would only the Chessie sailors have exploited
                      >this one variable, rake, so profoundly?
                      >
                      >-Lew
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • pvanderwaart
                      Did we mention that the raking mast causes the force on the main to have a lifting component, similar to a jib?
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 2, 2004
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                        Did we mention that the raking mast causes the force on the main to
                        have a lifting component, similar to a jib?
                      • mannthree
                        ... http://www.philrand.com/ There is something elegant in the simplicity of a sharpie design. Apparently this is the flattie version with deadrise in the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 2, 2004
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                          --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart"
                          <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
                          > I found this builder site for the boat.

                          http://www.philrand.com/

                          There is something elegant in the simplicity of a sharpie design.
                          Apparently this is the "flattie" version with deadrise in the stern
                          only.

                          The quote below is from the article in Parker Marine. Can anyone
                          elaborate on why the deadrise helped with "weatherliness" in fresh
                          winds.

                          "The model of the Chesapeake flattie was apparently created in an
                          effort to produce a wide sharpie that would sail well. A wide, flat-
                          bottomed hull is often slow when loaded, and, when paying off on a
                          new tack, the boat falls off badly before gathering headway. This
                          may lead to a knockdown or capsize in a fresh breeze, if the
                          handling is careless or slow. Someone had made the discovery that
                          deadrise aft helped such craft, and so the cheap but efficient
                          flattie model developed. The use of dead rise in the flattie seems
                          to have been confined to the Bay and to boats turned out by one
                          northern builder, Clapham. [Thomas Clapham of Roslyn, Long Island]
                          These stick-up rigged flattie skiffs were highly regarded [on the
                          Bay] and did not go wholly out of use until the motorboat drove sail
                          out. The skiffs were particularly approved of for weatherliness in
                          a fresh wind, and some were said to be able to go to windward in
                          strong winds"

                          Cheers,

                          John Mann (Sydney Australia)




                          > Did we mention that the raking mast causes the force on the main
                          to
                          > have a lifting component, similar to a jib?
                        • Lew Clayman
                          First, conditions in Long Island Sound are similar to those in the Chesapeake - low winds, long fetches, not as shallow, good fisheries before pollution, etc.
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 2, 2004
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                            First, conditions in Long Island Sound are similar to
                            those in the Chesapeake - low winds, long fetches, not
                            as shallow, good fisheries before pollution, etc. We
                            should expect similar boats to do well in both places,
                            and the differences may be instructive.

                            That said - to answer why deadrise might improve
                            weatherliness.... simply because by breaking up the
                            flat bottom with some v aft, you decrease the snap
                            roll and you also decrease the heeled surface area.
                            That aids in handling and in low-speed performance,
                            such as when paying off. In other words, it doesn't
                            point better, so much as prevent irons.

                            --- mannthree <johnmann@...> wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart"
                            > <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
                            > > I found this builder site for the boat.
                            >
                            > http://www.philrand.com/
                            >
                            > There is something elegant in the simplicity of a
                            > sharpie design.
                            > Apparently this is the "flattie" version with
                            > deadrise in the stern
                            > only.
                            >
                            > The quote below is from the article in Parker
                            > Marine. Can anyone
                            > elaborate on why the deadrise helped with
                            > "weatherliness" in fresh
                            > winds.
                            >
                            > "The model of the Chesapeake flattie was apparently
                            > created in an
                            > effort to produce a wide sharpie that would sail
                            > well. A wide, flat-
                            > bottomed hull is often slow when loaded, and, when
                            > paying off on a
                            > new tack, the boat falls off badly before gathering
                            > headway. This
                            > may lead to a knockdown or capsize in a fresh
                            > breeze, if the
                            > handling is careless or slow. Someone had made the
                            > discovery that
                            > deadrise aft helped such craft, and so the cheap but
                            > efficient
                            > flattie model developed. The use of dead rise in the
                            > flattie seems
                            > to have been confined to the Bay and to boats turned
                            > out by one
                            > northern builder, Clapham. [Thomas Clapham of
                            > Roslyn, Long Island]
                            > These stick-up rigged flattie skiffs were highly
                            > regarded [on the
                            > Bay] and did not go wholly out of use until the
                            > motorboat drove sail
                            > out. The skiffs were particularly approved of for
                            > weatherliness in
                            > a fresh wind, and some were said to be able to go to
                            > windward in
                            > strong winds"
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            >
                            > John Mann (Sydney Australia)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > > Did we mention that the raking mast causes the
                            > force on the main
                            > to
                            > > have a lifting component, similar to a jib?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • pvanderwaart
                            ... When a flat bottom boat heels the lower corner of the transom digs in, which is bad in itself, and may cause a bow-down attitude which is worse. A little
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 3, 2004
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                              > That said - to answer why deadrise might improve
                              > weatherliness.... simply because by breaking up the
                              > flat bottom with some v aft, you decrease the snap
                              > roll and you also decrease the heeled surface area.

                              When a flat bottom boat heels the lower corner of the transom digs
                              in, which is bad in itself, and may cause a bow-down attitude which
                              is worse. A little lift in the quarters is a big help.

                              The alternative in the flat bottom boat is to lift the whole transom
                              to get that corner out of the water, but then you lose LWL and
                              carrying capacity (on a given length).
                            • Bill Hamm
                              Simple answer, it wasn t only comfinded to the Chesapeake, raked masts were nearly everywhere, including Long Island Sound. Bill H.
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                Simple answer, it wasn't only comfinded to the Chesapeake, raked
                                masts were nearly everywhere, including Long Island Sound.

                                Bill H.

                                >
                                > I'm sure that's all true, and I can see why, in a
                                > low-wind area with lengthy transits and competition
                                > for speed, a lot of sail was necessary. The fastest
                                > way to get the catch to market was, of course, to go
                                > fastest.
                                >
                                > That said, surely the Chesapeake was not the only such
                                > area. Long Island Sound springs to mind, for example.
                                >
                                > Why then would only the Chessie sailors have exploited
                                > this one variable, rake, so profoundly?
                                >
                                > -Lew
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                              • Bill Hamm
                                Sailboats of the era had one thing that we usually don t have these days, lots of crew. The booms were vanged out to hold their position in light airs.
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                  Sailboats of the era had one thing that we usually don't have these
                                  days, lots of crew. The booms were vanged out to hold their
                                  position in light airs. Remember that the boom vang is only a
                                  modern interpretation of early vangs.

                                  Bill H.

                                  > Rake looks fabulous, and I recognise that it has certain
                                  advantages. But I
                                  > also see disadvantages in a low-wind area: for example, with a
                                  long heavy
                                  > boom and a lot of rake, how do you prevent the boom from falling
                                  to the
                                  > middle of the boat in light winds? I imagine you'd have to employ
                                  another
                                  > spar of some kind to prop the boom out...
                                  >
                                  > Exactly how low-wind is the Chesapeake? Do I remember correctly
                                  that it Is
                                  > an area that has many afternoon squalls with sudden strong winds?
                                  Might they
                                  > have something to do with this business of rake in skipjacks etc?
                                  >
                                  > Gavin
                                • Bill Hamm
                                  It would with a modern rig, the sails on these boats were pretty awful in shape, amazing that they worked at all :) That and they were cotton, takes some care
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                    It would with a modern rig, the sails on these boats were pretty
                                    awful in shape, amazing that they worked at all :) That and they
                                    were cotton, takes some care to insure that your cotton sails don't
                                    stretch out of shape. Anyone sailed with cotton sails?



                                    Bill H.

                                    > Did we mention that the raking mast causes the force on the main
                                    to
                                    > have a lifting component, similar to a jib?
                                  • Bill Hamm
                                    The traditional sharpie s fully balanced rudder and huge if not twin centerboards also contributed to the type being very slow to tack. Also if the boat had a
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                      The traditional sharpie's fully balanced rudder and huge if not twin
                                      centerboards also contributed to the type being very slow to tack.
                                      Also if the boat had a single board it tended to be mounted very far
                                      forward, the rear one on twin board models was often retracted to
                                      tack. Had to use much care to insure you didn't stall the rudder
                                      when tacking since with it being fully balanced there was no feel.

                                      Bill H.

                                      > First, conditions in Long Island Sound are similar to
                                      > those in the Chesapeake - low winds, long fetches, not
                                      > as shallow, good fisheries before pollution, etc. We
                                      > should expect similar boats to do well in both places,
                                      > and the differences may be instructive.
                                      >
                                      > That said - to answer why deadrise might improve
                                      > weatherliness.... simply because by breaking up the
                                      > flat bottom with some v aft, you decrease the snap
                                      > roll and you also decrease the heeled surface area.
                                      > That aids in handling and in low-speed performance,
                                      > such as when paying off. In other words, it doesn't
                                      > point better, so much as prevent irons.
                                      >
                                      > --- mannthree <johnmann@i...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In boatdesign@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart"
                                      > > <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
                                      > > > I found this builder site for the boat.
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.philrand.com/
                                      > >
                                      > > There is something elegant in the simplicity of a
                                      > > sharpie design.
                                      > > Apparently this is the "flattie" version with
                                      > > deadrise in the stern
                                      > > only.
                                      > >
                                      > > The quote below is from the article in Parker
                                      > > Marine. Can anyone
                                      > > elaborate on why the deadrise helped with
                                      > > "weatherliness" in fresh
                                      > > winds.
                                      > >
                                      > > "The model of the Chesapeake flattie was apparently
                                      > > created in an
                                      > > effort to produce a wide sharpie that would sail
                                      > > well. A wide, flat-
                                      > > bottomed hull is often slow when loaded, and, when
                                      > > paying off on a
                                      > > new tack, the boat falls off badly before gathering
                                      > > headway. This
                                      > > may lead to a knockdown or capsize in a fresh
                                      > > breeze, if the
                                      > > handling is careless or slow. Someone had made the
                                      > > discovery that
                                      > > deadrise aft helped such craft, and so the cheap but
                                      > > efficient
                                      > > flattie model developed. The use of dead rise in the
                                      > > flattie seems
                                      > > to have been confined to the Bay and to boats turned
                                      > > out by one
                                      > > northern builder, Clapham. [Thomas Clapham of
                                      > > Roslyn, Long Island]
                                      > > These stick-up rigged flattie skiffs were highly
                                      > > regarded [on the
                                      > > Bay] and did not go wholly out of use until the
                                      > > motorboat drove sail
                                      > > out. The skiffs were particularly approved of for
                                      > > weatherliness in
                                      > > a fresh wind, and some were said to be able to go to
                                      > > windward in
                                      > > strong winds"
                                      > >
                                      > > Cheers,
                                      > >
                                      > > John Mann (Sydney Australia)
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > > Did we mention that the raking mast causes the
                                      > > force on the main
                                      > > to
                                      > > > have a lifting component, similar to a jib?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
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                                    • Bill Hamm
                                      Tradtional sharpies had their transoms, or counters (many had round sterns), well lifted out of the water to counter this. Bill H. ... which ... transom
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                        Tradtional sharpies had their transoms, or counters (many had round
                                        sterns), well lifted out of the water to counter this.

                                        Bill H.

                                        > That said - to answer why deadrise might improve
                                        > > weatherliness.... simply because by breaking up the
                                        > > flat bottom with some v aft, you decrease the snap
                                        > > roll and you also decrease the heeled surface area.
                                        >
                                        > When a flat bottom boat heels the lower corner of the transom digs
                                        > in, which is bad in itself, and may cause a bow-down attitude
                                        which
                                        > is worse. A little lift in the quarters is a big help.
                                        >
                                        > The alternative in the flat bottom boat is to lift the whole
                                        transom
                                        > to get that corner out of the water, but then you lose LWL and
                                        > carrying capacity (on a given length).
                                      • pvanderwaart
                                        ... Stickly speaking, yes. The first sail on our Sailfish was cotton. Mid 1950 s. But I was too young and inexperienced to make a critical judgement. I also
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                          > Anyone sailed with cotton sails?

                                          Stickly speaking, yes. The first sail on our Sailfish was cotton. Mid
                                          1950's. But I was too young and inexperienced to make a critical
                                          judgement.

                                          I also had one sail on a boat with a nylon mainsail. Not many can say
                                          that. The transition from cotton to dacron had only the shortest stop
                                          at nylon along the way. It was an old sail when I saw it in 1966.

                                          Peter
                                        • Mike Goodwin
                                          Spinakers have been made from nylon for decades and still are. Their stretchy nature is good in that use . I had an Egyptian cotton mizzen , topsail and mitred
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                            Spinakers have been made from nylon for decades and still are.
                                            Their stretchy nature is good in that use .
                                            I had an Egyptian cotton mizzen , topsail and mitred jib on Blue Moon they
                                            were still near perfect in 1988 and were made in 1954 by Cranfield sails in
                                            the UK.




                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
                                            To: <boatdesign@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 11:24 AM
                                            Subject: [boatdesign] Re: Sharpie 16 Eastern Shore Stickup


                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Anyone sailed with cotton sails?
                                            >
                                            > Stickly speaking, yes. The first sail on our Sailfish was cotton. Mid
                                            > 1950's. But I was too young and inexperienced to make a critical
                                            > judgement.
                                            >
                                            > I also had one sail on a boat with a nylon mainsail. Not many can say
                                            > that. The transition from cotton to dacron had only the shortest stop
                                            > at nylon along the way. It was an old sail when I saw it in 1966.
                                            >
                                            > Peter
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Bill Hamm
                                            My first boat, a baddly neglected 16 whitehall, was gaff rigged and came with two cotton sails. Actually were pretty nice but took some care that you didn t
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                              My first boat, a baddly neglected 16' whitehall, was gaff rigged and
                                              came with two cotton sails. Actually were pretty nice but took some
                                              care that you didn't stretch them all out of shape, still they feel
                                              so much nicer than any of the synthetics.

                                              Bill H.

                                              > > Anyone sailed with cotton sails?
                                              >
                                              > Stickly speaking, yes. The first sail on our Sailfish was cotton.
                                              Mid
                                              > 1950's. But I was too young and inexperienced to make a critical
                                              > judgement.
                                              >
                                              > I also had one sail on a boat with a nylon mainsail. Not many can
                                              say
                                              > that. The transition from cotton to dacron had only the shortest
                                              stop
                                              > at nylon along the way. It was an old sail when I saw it in 1966.
                                              >
                                              > Peter
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