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Re: [boatdesign] Plan prices

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  • Mark Albanese
    Ron, The one I know like this is Warren Bailey s Flyaway http://www.common-sense-boats.com/boats/Sail_Boats/flyaway.htm The drawings are simply scaled by
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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      Ron,

      The one I know like this is Warren Bailey's 'Flyaway'
      http://www.common-sense-boats.com/boats/Sail_Boats/flyaway.htm

      The drawings are simply scaled by builders for 20, 30 or 40 feet. Precious
      few details, though.

      Mark

      Ron Badley wrote:
      > snip:
      >
      > I'm surprised someone hasn't designed a series of boats. All
      > the same basic type but the boats get larger and larger. All
      > built the same way only the pieces get bigger and bigger. This
      > way you could have a standard detail sheet that suits every
      > boat. Just use X plywood (or whatever) for X size of hull.
      > Plans could be cheap to buy and cheap for a designer to
      > produce. Charge by the hour for phone advise.
      >
      > Ron
      > Kismet 31 "Big Bird"
      >
      > > Figure that out!
      > > Jeff
      >
    • Mark Albanese
      Peter, That ( plus arm twisting ) is how Gates did it, huh?
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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        Peter,

        That ( plus arm twisting ) is how Gates did it, huh?

        Peter & Polly Vanderwaart wrote:
        >

        >
        > At the beginning of the personal computer boom, there was a big round
        > of smug talk about 'percieved value pricing.' In plain talk, this
        > meant it was right and proper to price a program (say Lotus 1-2-3) at
        > $100 if the public thought it was worth that to them, even if it
        > meant a 99% gross profit on sales.
        >
        > Peter
        >
      • Mark Albanese
        Peter, That ( plus arm twisting ) is how Gates did it, huh? Mark
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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          Peter,

          That ( plus arm twisting ) is how Gates did it, huh?

          Mark

          Peter & Polly Vanderwaart wrote:
          >

          >
          > At the beginning of the personal computer boom, there was a big round
          > of smug talk about 'percieved value pricing.' In plain talk, this
          > meant it was right and proper to price a program (say Lotus 1-2-3) at
          > $100 if the public thought it was worth that to them, even if it
          > meant a 99% gross profit on sales.
          >
          > Peter
          >
        • Peter & Polly Vanderwaart
          ... so much ... Can you name a single person who has made what could even be described as a small fortune as a yacht designer? The most successful seem to top
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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            > Either way, so many of us "designing-type persons" have given away
            so much
            > for so little that
            > weve converted a viable livelihood into a thankless Mug's Game.

            Can you name a single person who has made what could even be
            described as a small fortune as a yacht designer? The most successful
            seem to top out a little over the top of "making a comfortable
            living." It's supply and demand. It is a desireable field to be in,
            inspires passion for the subject material, so supply exceeds demand.

            Of course, you may get to rub shoulders with the really rich.

            For that matter, how many people have made any size fortune in the
            pleasure boating field? Some, but few. Probably a few of the
            fiberglass boat builders. I wonder how many of those who had their
            businesses during the "luxury tax" collapse fold came out with their
            personal fortunes intact.

            Sorry, Jeff.

            Peter
          • John Perry
            ... Of the countless thousands or millions of boats that have been drawn there are just a handful which stand out above the rest. Such classics are the best of
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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              >
              > What does it take to design a boat these days anyway? With all
              > the computer programs available almost anyone can draw up a
              > basic hull in less than an hour. Of course knowing _what_ to
              > draw is what the pro guys get paid for. And when you do know
              > what to draw the details get drawn that much faster.
              >

              Of the countless thousands or millions of boats that have been drawn
              there are just a handful which stand out above the rest. Such
              classics are the best of their type that will ever be drawn because if
              any one in the future should draw an improved version they would
              necessarily be so close to the original that they would be considered
              plagiarism and the status of the original would stand undiminished.

              One could sit at a computer and draw a new hull every hour of every day
              and never produce such an outstanding design, or if one did one could
              well fail to recognise it on the screen before ones eyes.

              Apart from all that it does actually take a lot of time and thought to
              properly detail a yacht design. When I used to have a job much of my
              work was designing special purpose machinery and I can tell you that it
              took longer to draw the machines than to make them. You might think
              that was because I was slow and the guys making the machines were quick
              but even on those occasions when I did
              both parts of the operation the designing still took longer. Just think
              what the boat plans would cost
              if an amateur builder paid the designer for even the same hours that go
              into the building.
            • Lew Clayman
              And furthermore... It is easier on every level to design a successful small boat (excluding racers & other extremes) than a large one - and certainly easier to
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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                And furthermore...

                It is easier on every level to design a successful small boat
                (excluding racers & other extremes) than a large one - and
                certainly easier to build. Hence, uncountable 12' dinghy and
                8' jonboats and 15'8 kayaks. Not that all these are problems,
                but they skew (sic) the POV.

                As a design get bigger, it tends to get more intricate - you
                add features (bunks, galley, head, servant's quarters, flight
                deck...) and amateurs, beginners, etc (myself included) tend to
                drop out. This is where the pros stand out, where the rubber
                (to mix a metaphor) meets the road.

                Just my 2 cents' worth...

                -Lew

                --- John Perry <j_perry@...> wrote:

                > Of the countless thousands or millions of boats that have
                > been drawn
                > there are just a handful which stand out above the rest. Such
                > classics are the best of their type that will ever be drawn
                > because if
                > any one in the future should draw an improved version they
                > would
                > necessarily be so close to the original that they would be
                > considered
                > plagiarism and the status of the original would stand
                > undiminished.
                >
                > One could sit at a computer and draw a new hull every hour of
                > every day
                > and never produce such an outstanding design, or if one did
                > one could
                > well fail to recognise it on the screen before ones eyes.
                >
                > Apart from all that it does actually take a lot of time and
                > thought to
                > properly detail a yacht design. When I used to have a job
                > much of my
                > work was designing special purpose machinery and I can tell
                > you that it
                > took longer to draw the machines than to make them. You
                > might think
                > that was because I was slow and the guys making the machines
                > were quick
                > but even on those occasions when I did
                > both parts of the operation the designing still took longer.
                > Just think
                > what the boat plans would cost
                > if an amateur builder paid the designer for even the same
                > hours that go
                > into the building.
                >
                >
                >


                =====
                "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."
                -Yogi Berra
                =====

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              • Jeff Gilbert
                Peter, I was trying for a bite! To be serious, I think anyone with enough clues to design boats would also have enough clues to know that this occupation
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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                  Peter,
                  I was trying for a bite!
                  To be serious, I think anyone with enough clues to design boats
                  would also have enough clues to know that this occupation (obsessesion!?)
                  is far, far removed from "get rich quick" carreers.
                  After all, it borders on art, he says, looking round the floor
                  for his left ear.
                  Thanks,
                  Jeff
                  A happy mug!

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Peter & Polly Vanderwaart <pvanderw@...>
                  To: <boatdesign@egroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 11:35 PM
                  Subject: [boatdesign] Re: Plan prices


                  > Either way, so many of us "designing-type persons" have given away
                  so much
                  > for so little that
                  > weve converted a viable livelihood into a thankless Mug's Game.

                  Can you name a single person who has made what could even be
                  described as a small fortune as a yacht designer? The most successful
                  seem to top out a little over the top of "making a comfortable
                  living." It's supply and demand. It is a desireable field to be in,
                  inspires passion for the subject material, so supply exceeds demand.

                  Of course, you may get to rub shoulders with the really rich.

                  For that matter, how many people have made any size fortune in the
                  pleasure boating field? Some, but few. Probably a few of the
                  fiberglass boat builders. I wonder how many of those who had their
                  businesses during the "luxury tax" collapse fold came out with their
                  personal fortunes intact.

                  Sorry, Jeff.

                  Peter
                • Jeff Gilbert
                  re: Series design thread Uffa Fox s flying 15 (measured on WL) was a series, going right up to 50feet. Its just not many larger ones were built, and so far
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 3, 2000
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                    re: "Series" design thread

                    Uffa Fox's flying 15 (measured on WL)
                    was a series, going right up to 50feet.
                    Its just not many larger ones were built, and
                    so far as I know none in the 50 foot size.

                    Also the current "Spirit" yachts are a series aren't they?
                    Extremely beautiful boats (like Skerry cruisers or 6m), strictly trad with
                    short WL & basic accom. Faster than their WL indicates.
                    http://www.spirit-yachts.co.uk/index.htm
                    They are built of cedar strip composite at a smallish farmhouse site
                    in England (prob a barn).
                    I dont know anything about them, except they deserve a Gold Medal.
                    I defy Multihullers to say there is no case for the mono after looking
                    at these. I see statements to the effect they are hand drawn, which is
                    cheery news
                    for someone studying the art.
                    Jeff Gilbert


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Peter & Polly Vanderwaart <pvanderw@...>
                    To: <boatdesign@egroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 8:29 AM
                    Subject: [boatdesign] Re: Plan prices



                    > I'm surprised someone hasn't designed a series of boats. All
                    > the same basic type but the boats get larger and larger. All
                    > built the same way only the pieces get bigger and bigger.
                  • Peter & Polly Vanderwaart
                    ... Well, if we are going to get them all in, we want to include C. Raymond Hunt s series 110,210,.... I forget how many boats there were, but the largest was
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 4, 2000
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                      > Uffa Fox's flying 15 (measured on WL)
                      > was a series, going right up to 50feet.

                      Well, if we are going to get them all in, we want to include C.
                      Raymond Hunt's series 110,210,.... I forget how many boats there
                      were, but the largest was a substantial cruising boat. Of course the
                      models differed a little, as did Fox's, I think.

                      Peter
                    • gmatkin@clara.net
                      ... models differed a little, as did Fox s, I think. They have to, don t they, because of scale effects? If the original 15 is anything to go by, the larger
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 4, 2000
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                        >>Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 12:55:58 -0000
                        >>From: Peter & Polly Vanderwaart

                        >Of course the
                        models differed a little, as did Fox's, I think.

                        They have to, don't they, because of scale effects?

                        If the original 15 is anything to go by, the larger models must have been drop dead gorgeous, if a little complex.

                        I gather there was also a Flying 12 and a Flying 10.

                        In his book 'Sailing Boats', Fox describes how he thought of the concept of the Flying series while in the bath. (I got my copy from a second-hand bookshop, naturally!)

                        Gavin

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