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Henry Norr fired by Chronicle for war protest

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  • Dave Winer
    The San Francisco Chronicle today sacked technology reporter Henry Norr in an apparent response to his protests against the US-led invasion of Iraq.
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 24, 2003
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      "The San Francisco Chronicle today sacked technology reporter Henry Norr in
      an apparent response to his protests against the US-led invasion of Iraq."

      http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/2003/04/24#a286
    • Elizabeth Lane Lawley
      Hi, folks. Just wanted to let you know (some of you may know already) that Corante launched a new social software blog called Many2Many yesterday. It s a
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 25, 2003
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        Hi, folks.

        Just wanted to let you know (some of you may know already) that Corante
        launched a new "social software" blog called "Many2Many" yesterday.
        It's a group-authored blog, with me, Clay Shirky, Ross Mayfield, Seb
        Paquet, and Jessica Hammer.

        Hope you'll consider stopping by...and eventually adding us to your
        blogrolls. :-)

        Liz

        .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
        Elizabeth Lane Lawley, Ph.D.
        Asst. Professor - RIT/Info Tech
        site: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/
        blog: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/mamamusings/
        .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
      • Dave Winer
        Excellent. I wrote a bit about social software this morning. http://scriptingnews.userland.com/2003/04/25#thisPigWontFly Yours in discourse.. Dave ... From:
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 25, 2003
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          Excellent.

          I wrote a bit about social software this morning.

          http://scriptingnews.userland.com/2003/04/25#thisPigWontFly

          Yours in discourse..

          Dave

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Elizabeth Lane Lawley
          To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:01 AM
          Subject: [blogrollers] New social software blog


          Hi, folks.

          Just wanted to let you know (some of you may know already) that Corante
          launched a new "social software" blog called "Many2Many" yesterday.
          It's a group-authored blog, with me, Clay Shirky, Ross Mayfield, Seb
          Paquet, and Jessica Hammer.

          Hope you'll consider stopping by...and eventually adding us to your
          blogrolls. :-)

          Liz

          .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
          Elizabeth Lane Lawley, Ph.D.
          Asst. Professor - RIT/Info Tech
          site: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/
          blog: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/mamamusings/
          .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.


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        • Elizabeth Lawley
          Always nice to start out the day with such a warm and fuzzy greeting. ... Of course, there s no such thing as bad publicity (or a bad link, considering how
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 25, 2003
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            Always nice to start out the day with such a warm and fuzzy greeting.
            :-)

            Of course, there's no such thing as bad publicity (or a bad link,
            considering how Google ranks sites...) And dissent is important when
            hype starts to build--whether it's about blogs, or social software more
            broadly.

            Will respond in more detail on my blog.

            p.s. Am really hoping that your "bloggercon" won't be the weekend of the
            16th, since I already have two conferences I want to be at then...

            On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 8:47AM -0500, Dave Winer wrote:
            > Excellent.
            >
            > I wrote a bit about social software this morning.
            >
            > http://scriptingnews.userland.com/2003/04/25#thisPigWontFly
            >
            > Yours in discourse..
            >
            > Dave
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Elizabeth Lane Lawley
            > To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:01 AM
            > Subject: [blogrollers] New social software blog
            >
            >
            > Hi, folks.
            >
            > Just wanted to let you know (some of you may know already) that
            > Corante
            > launched a new "social software" blog called "Many2Many" yesterday.
            > It's a group-authored blog, with me, Clay Shirky, Ross Mayfield, Seb
            > Paquet, and Jessica Hammer.
            >
            > Hope you'll consider stopping by...and eventually adding us to your
            > blogrolls. :-)
            >
            > Liz
            >
            > .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
            > Elizabeth Lane Lawley, Ph.D.
            > Asst. Professor - RIT/Info Tech
            > site: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/
            > blog: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/mamamusings/
            > .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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            >
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            >
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          • Dave Winer
            Change my mind -- it s open -- is there anything new in Social Software or is it another manufactured trend? Is it real news or is it techno-turf? (Like
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 25, 2003
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              Change my mind -- it's open -- is there anything new in Social Software or is it another manufactured trend? Is it real news or is it techno-turf? (Like astroturf, but from the technology community.) Looking forward to the response. Also if possible, what are the backgrounds of the proponents, and disclose their interests. I'm kind of vague on that. Not sure of the date for BloggerCon yet. What conf's are on the 16th? Dave

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Elizabeth Lawley
              To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 9:41 AM
              Subject: Re: [blogrollers] New social software blog


              Always nice to start out the day with such a warm and fuzzy greeting.
              :-)

              Of course, there's no such thing as bad publicity (or a bad link,
              considering how Google ranks sites...) And dissent is important when
              hype starts to build--whether it's about blogs, or social software more
              broadly.

              Will respond in more detail on my blog.

              p.s. Am really hoping that your "bloggercon" won't be the weekend of the
              16th, since I already have two conferences I want to be at then...

              On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 8:47AM -0500, Dave Winer wrote:
              > Excellent.
              >
              > I wrote a bit about social software this morning.
              >
              > http://scriptingnews.userland.com/2003/04/25#thisPigWontFly
              >
              > Yours in discourse..
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Elizabeth Lane Lawley
              > To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:01 AM
              > Subject: [blogrollers] New social software blog
              >
              >
              > Hi, folks.
              >
              > Just wanted to let you know (some of you may know already) that
              > Corante
              > launched a new "social software" blog called "Many2Many" yesterday.
              > It's a group-authored blog, with me, Clay Shirky, Ross Mayfield, Seb
              > Paquet, and Jessica Hammer.
              >
              > Hope you'll consider stopping by...and eventually adding us to your
              > blogrolls. :-)
              >
              > Liz
              >
              > .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
              > Elizabeth Lane Lawley, Ph.D.
              > Asst. Professor - RIT/Info Tech
              > site: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/
              > blog: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/mamamusings/
              > .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
              >
              >
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              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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            • Elizabeth Lawley
              Am thumb-typing on my phone at a faculty meeting, so can t respond in detail til later...but definitely will. Conferences on the 16th-19th are Pop!Tech and
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 25, 2003
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                Am thumb-typing on my phone at a faculty meeting, so can't respond in
                detail 'til later...but definitely will.

                Conferences on the 16th-19th are Pop!Tech and Assn of Internet
                Researchers. Both will draw from some of the same groups you're
                targeting.

                Liz

                On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 9:58AM -0500, Dave Winer wrote:
                > Change my mind -- it's open -- is there anything new in Social Software
                > or is it another manufactured trend? Is it real news or is it
                > techno-turf? (Like astroturf, but from the technology community.)
                > Looking forward to the response. Also if possible, what are the
                > backgrounds of the proponents, and disclose their interests. I'm kind
                > of vague on that. Not sure of the date for BloggerCon yet. What conf's
                > are on the 16th? Dave
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Elizabeth Lawley
                > To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 9:41 AM
                > Subject: Re: [blogrollers] New social software blog
                >
                >
                > Always nice to start out the day with such a warm and fuzzy greeting.
                > :-)
                >
                > Of course, there's no such thing as bad publicity (or a bad link,
                > considering how Google ranks sites...) And dissent is important when
                > hype starts to build--whether it's about blogs, or social software
                > more
                > broadly.
                >
                > Will respond in more detail on my blog.
                >
                > p.s. Am really hoping that your "bloggercon" won't be the weekend of
                > the
                > 16th, since I already have two conferences I want to be at then...
                >
                > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 8:47AM -0500, Dave Winer wrote:
                > > Excellent.
                > >
                > > I wrote a bit about social software this morning.
                > >
                > > http://scriptingnews.userland.com/2003/04/25#thisPigWontFly
                > >
                > > Yours in discourse..
                > >
                > > Dave
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: Elizabeth Lane Lawley
                > > To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:01 AM
                > > Subject: [blogrollers] New social software blog
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi, folks.
                > >
                > > Just wanted to let you know (some of you may know already) that
                > > Corante
                > > launched a new "social software" blog called "Many2Many"
                > yesterday.
                > > It's a group-authored blog, with me, Clay Shirky, Ross Mayfield,
                > Seb
                > > Paquet, and Jessica Hammer.
                > >
                > > Hope you'll consider stopping by...and eventually adding us to
                > your
                > > blogrolls. :-)
                > >
                > > Liz
                > >
                > > .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
                > > Elizabeth Lane Lawley, Ph.D.
                > > Asst. Professor - RIT/Info Tech
                > > site: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/
                > > blog: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/mamamusings/
                > > .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > blogrollers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > Service.
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
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                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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              • Dave Winer
                Charles Cooper s column today at News.Com is right on topic: http://rss.com.com/2010-1071-998285.html You have to wonder about the wisdom of the over-the-top,
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 25, 2003
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                  Charles Cooper's column today at News.Com is right on topic:

                  http://rss.com.com/2010-1071-998285.html

                  "You have to wonder about the wisdom of the over-the-top,
                  we-just-reinvented-the-universe approach. It's easy to understand why so
                  many vendors are eager to bang that drum as loudly as possible. But maybe if
                  they just stopped talking in tongues, they'd get a better reception.

                  "After the three years of Sturm und Drang, IT customers are thirsting for
                  straight talk--a commodity which will always be in demand and should seep
                  into on-demand territory."

                  That's how "Social Software" sounds to my ear. We just re-invented the
                  world. Now you have to tell us how, without the hand-waving.

                  Dave
                • Donna Wentworth
                  Poptech especially. John Perry will almost certainly be at Poptech; it would be terrific to have him at BloggerCon, I think... *************** Donna Wentworth
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 25, 2003
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                    Poptech especially. John Perry will almost certainly be at Poptech; it would
                    be terrific to have him at BloggerCon, I think...


                    ***************
                    Donna Wentworth
                    Berkman Center for Internet & Society
                    Harvard Law School
                    < http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/filter <http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/filter>
                    >
                    < http://www.copyfight.org <http://www.copyfight.org/> >
                    donna@...



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Elizabeth Lawley [mailto:ell@...]
                    Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 10:03 AM
                    To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [blogrollers] New social software blog


                    Am thumb-typing on my phone at a faculty meeting, so can't respond in
                    detail 'til later...but definitely will.

                    Conferences on the 16th-19th are Pop!Tech and Assn of Internet
                    Researchers. Both will draw from some of the same groups you're
                    targeting.

                    Liz

                    On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 9:58AM -0500, Dave Winer wrote:
                    > Change my mind -- it's open -- is there anything new in Social Software
                    > or is it another manufactured trend? Is it real news or is it
                    > techno-turf? (Like astroturf, but from the technology community.)
                    > Looking forward to the response. Also if possible, what are the
                    > backgrounds of the proponents, and disclose their interests. I'm kind
                    > of vague on that. Not sure of the date for BloggerCon yet. What conf's
                    > are on the 16th? Dave
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Elizabeth Lawley
                    > To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 9:41 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [blogrollers] New social software blog
                    >
                    >
                    > Always nice to start out the day with such a warm and fuzzy greeting.
                    > :-)
                    >
                    > Of course, there's no such thing as bad publicity (or a bad link,
                    > considering how Google ranks sites...) And dissent is important when
                    > hype starts to build--whether it's about blogs, or social software
                    > more
                    > broadly.
                    >
                    > Will respond in more detail on my blog.
                    >
                    > p.s. Am really hoping that your "bloggercon" won't be the weekend of
                    > the
                    > 16th, since I already have two conferences I want to be at then...
                    >
                    > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 8:47AM -0500, Dave Winer wrote:
                    > > Excellent.
                    > >
                    > > I wrote a bit about social software this morning.
                    > >
                    > > http://scriptingnews.userland.com/2003/04/25#thisPigWontFly
                    <http://scriptingnews.userland.com/2003/04/25#thisPigWontFly>
                    > >
                    > > Yours in discourse..
                    > >
                    > > Dave
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: Elizabeth Lane Lawley
                    > > To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:01 AM
                    > > Subject: [blogrollers] New social software blog
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi, folks.
                    > >
                    > > Just wanted to let you know (some of you may know already) that
                    > > Corante
                    > > launched a new "social software" blog called "Many2Many"
                    > yesterday.
                    > > It's a group-authored blog, with me, Clay Shirky, Ross Mayfield,
                    > Seb
                    > > Paquet, and Jessica Hammer.
                    > >
                    > > Hope you'll consider stopping by...and eventually adding us to
                    > your
                    > > blogrolls. :-)
                    > >
                    > > Liz
                    > >
                    > > .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
                    > > Elizabeth Lane Lawley, Ph.D.
                    > > Asst. Professor - RIT/Info Tech
                    > > site: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/ <http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/>
                    > > blog: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/mamamusings/
                    <http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/mamamusings/>
                    > > .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                    > > blogrollers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
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                  • Elizabeth Lane Lawley
                    Back on the laptop. Here s what I wrote while sitting through interminable meetings today. Don t know yet how much of this will make it out to either of the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 25, 2003
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                      Back on the laptop. Here's what I wrote while sitting through
                      interminable meetings today. Don't know yet how much of this will make
                      it out to either of the blogs. Still thinking. But thought I'd share it
                      with this smaller group.

                      =====

                      Social software isn't a new thing. One could argue (correctly, I
                      think), that it's been around since the first e-mail message was sent.
                      Early adopters of network technologies were active participants in
                      "social" environments like Adventure, BITNET LISTSERVs, and CompuServer
                      CB Simulator. So why is there so much energy and excitement right now
                      in developer and academic communities about "social software"? Is it
                      just hype? (Dave Winer thinks so.) Or is it something more?

                      The fact that something's not "new" doesn't make it unworthy of
                      discussion and debate, however. Weblogs aren't "new," but there's lots
                      of talk about them right now. Intellectual property arguments and
                      conflicts aren't new, but nobody's arguing that Donna Wentworth's blog
                      is "just hype." Biotech isn't new, either. XML isn't new. Does that
                      mean that we should stop talking about them?

                      Ten years ago, when I was a doctoral student, my major area of interest
                      was "computer-mediated communication." In a lot of ways, what academics
                      (and developers) were calling CMC back in the '80s and '90s is the same
                      thing that we're calling social software today. But getting people to
                      take CMC seriously as both a medium for and a subject of research was a
                      challenge back then. Only in the past few years have we seen the
                      emergence of an academic journal focused on the topic. And finding
                      clear definitions of CMC is still a challenge.

                      So what's different now? A lot of things, I think. First of all, more
                      ubiquity in connectivity. The Internet is no longer a niche market,
                      primarily restricted to well-educated, technically sophisticated people
                      working in high-tech and academic environments. Second, fewer technical
                      barriers to adoption. For example, it used to be a serious challenge to
                      figure out how to create a BITNET LISTSERV for people who shared your
                      interests. It's far easier to create a Yahoo! group (which is why my
                      sons' cub scout pack has one for alerting parents to upcoming events).
                      Third, a new crop of researchers is coming of age in the
                      academy--people who recognize computer-mediated environments as a
                      "real" sociological and communicative environment (look at people like
                      Seb Paquet, Eszter Hargittai, Alex Halavais, Thomas Burg, and even me,
                      for example).

                      No, this isn't something "new." But it's still in need of a number of
                      things right now.

                      The first is a shared vocabulary. What are we _talking_ about when we
                      talk about social software? Are blogs "social," for example? Some are
                      really just publishing platforms (Dave Winer, for example, doesn't
                      provide any mechanisms for commenting or trackbacks on his blog--is it
                      really social? I'd argue not. Others are very social, with much of
                      their value coming from the discussions in the comments and the content
                      in the trackbacks (Shelley Powers comes to mind here--not that her
                      original content isn't key to the weblog, but it's enriched and
                      expanded by the social nature of her comments and trackbacks). Ross'
                      ecosystem of networks (posted earlier) provides for an interesting
                      discussion of various "modes" for blogs--and that's the kind of
                      valuable (to me, anyhow) analysis that these new conversations on
                      social software are yielding.

                      The second is a shared (and open) community of developers and
                      researchers. The SSA is a starting point for this, but already the
                      tensions are obvious. The researchers want definitions. The developers
                      want us to quit talking and start coding. What I'm hoping is that we'll
                      start to find a place in the middle that will help us both.

                      Lately, I've found myself regularly reminded of something that Howard
                      Rheingold wrote in his book _The Virtual Community_ back in 1993:

                      "Right now, all we have on the Net is folklore, like the Netiquette
                      that old-timers try to teach the flood of new arrivals, and debates
                      about freedom of expression versus nurturance of community. About two
                      dozen social scientists, working for several years, might produce
                      conclusions that would help inform these debates and furnish a basis of
                      validated observation for all the theories flying around. A science of
                      Net behavior is not going to reshape the way people behave online, but
                      knowledge of the dynamics of how people do behave is an important
                      social feedback loop to install if the Net is to be self-governing at
                      any scale."

                      Here we are, a decade later, without much of that "social feedback
                      loop" in place. There's now an Association of Internet Researchers,
                      where a lot of interesting research is being talked about. And there's
                      certainly lots of exciting new software being developed. But there have
                      been huge gaps between the resesarch community and the development
                      community, and I think both sides are poorer for it.

                      What excites me about the budding SSA, and this new blog, is that both
                      seem to be moving towards more dialog in these areas. Both have
                      representation from both research and development, from the academy and
                      from industry. But all the participants have a history of working with
                      social technologies. Most were early adopters, many are innovators
                      and/or though tful critics in the field.

                      What's new is that these people are _talking_ to each other. (Not
                      always nicely, but that's still an improvement over silence.) Yes, we
                      need people to write code, build systems, think outside the box. But I
                      think we also need people to provide a feedback loop in that process.
                      It doesn't need to be--and _shouldn't_ be--an either/or situation.


                      .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
                      Elizabeth Lane Lawley, Ph.D.
                      Asst. Professor - RIT/Info Tech
                      site: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/
                      blog: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/mamamusings/
                      .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
                    • Dave Winer
                      As I read this, I want to take the quotes off new. It makes it read much plainer, and more accurately, less defensive. No, of course there s nothing wrong
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 25, 2003
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                        As I read this, I want to take the quotes off "new." It makes it read much plainer, and more accurately, less defensive.

                        No, of course there's nothing wrong about discussion of, even promotion of, ideas that aren't new. Good examples: safe sex, wearing seat belts, voting, taking your vitamins, those are just a few things that are not new that are worth promoting.

                        When people ask me if weblogs are new, I say they aren't. I often volunteer that. I feel it's important to set expectations. If I didn't the ideas wouldn't have a chance to be appreciated for what they are.

                        But I have watched with horror as good ideas have been promoted as panaceas by people who don't understand them. The first time it happened to something I cared about was with outliners when they were eclipsed by Personal Information Managers. Same idea. Different words. It would have worked out better for had the energy applied to a half-baked product been applied to the then-maturing category of outliners. But then, quickly, it was time to move on to another flash in the pan and then another and another.

                        My hope is that we're done with technology as a flash in the pan, as a way to make marketing hypesters rich at the expense of users waiting for an upgrade to a product that's never going to get upgraded.

                        Think about it -- how can you help what's already working -- instead of replacing it. It's a bad omen, imho, that Clay had a Social Software Summit and chose only a few people in the business to be present. I don't want Clay doing the choosing. I know he shrugs it off, but he is choosing who speaks about this Social Software thing. Better imho if the idea just fades away and let's stay focused on making our software better and having the stuff work better together.

                        Dave


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Elizabeth Lane Lawley
                        To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:52 PM
                        Subject: Re: [blogrollers] New social software blog


                        Back on the laptop. Here's what I wrote while sitting through
                        interminable meetings today. Don't know yet how much of this will make
                        it out to either of the blogs. Still thinking. But thought I'd share it
                        with this smaller group.

                        =====

                        Social software isn't a new thing. One could argue (correctly, I
                        think), that it's been around since the first e-mail message was sent.
                        Early adopters of network technologies were active participants in
                        "social" environments like Adventure, BITNET LISTSERVs, and CompuServer
                        CB Simulator. So why is there so much energy and excitement right now
                        in developer and academic communities about "social software"? Is it
                        just hype? (Dave Winer thinks so.) Or is it something more?

                        The fact that something's not "new" doesn't make it unworthy of
                        discussion and debate, however. Weblogs aren't "new," but there's lots
                        of talk about them right now. Intellectual property arguments and
                        conflicts aren't new, but nobody's arguing that Donna Wentworth's blog
                        is "just hype." Biotech isn't new, either. XML isn't new. Does that
                        mean that we should stop talking about them?

                        Ten years ago, when I was a doctoral student, my major area of interest
                        was "computer-mediated communication." In a lot of ways, what academics
                        (and developers) were calling CMC back in the '80s and '90s is the same
                        thing that we're calling social software today. But getting people to
                        take CMC seriously as both a medium for and a subject of research was a
                        challenge back then. Only in the past few years have we seen the
                        emergence of an academic journal focused on the topic. And finding
                        clear definitions of CMC is still a challenge.

                        So what's different now? A lot of things, I think. First of all, more
                        ubiquity in connectivity. The Internet is no longer a niche market,
                        primarily restricted to well-educated, technically sophisticated people
                        working in high-tech and academic environments. Second, fewer technical
                        barriers to adoption. For example, it used to be a serious challenge to
                        figure out how to create a BITNET LISTSERV for people who shared your
                        interests. It's far easier to create a Yahoo! group (which is why my
                        sons' cub scout pack has one for alerting parents to upcoming events).
                        Third, a new crop of researchers is coming of age in the
                        academy--people who recognize computer-mediated environments as a
                        "real" sociological and communicative environment (look at people like
                        Seb Paquet, Eszter Hargittai, Alex Halavais, Thomas Burg, and even me,
                        for example).

                        No, this isn't something "new." But it's still in need of a number of
                        things right now.

                        The first is a shared vocabulary. What are we _talking_ about when we
                        talk about social software? Are blogs "social," for example? Some are
                        really just publishing platforms (Dave Winer, for example, doesn't
                        provide any mechanisms for commenting or trackbacks on his blog--is it
                        really social? I'd argue not. Others are very social, with much of
                        their value coming from the discussions in the comments and the content
                        in the trackbacks (Shelley Powers comes to mind here--not that her
                        original content isn't key to the weblog, but it's enriched and
                        expanded by the social nature of her comments and trackbacks). Ross'
                        ecosystem of networks (posted earlier) provides for an interesting
                        discussion of various "modes" for blogs--and that's the kind of
                        valuable (to me, anyhow) analysis that these new conversations on
                        social software are yielding.

                        The second is a shared (and open) community of developers and
                        researchers. The SSA is a starting point for this, but already the
                        tensions are obvious. The researchers want definitions. The developers
                        want us to quit talking and start coding. What I'm hoping is that we'll
                        start to find a place in the middle that will help us both.

                        Lately, I've found myself regularly reminded of something that Howard
                        Rheingold wrote in his book _The Virtual Community_ back in 1993:

                        "Right now, all we have on the Net is folklore, like the Netiquette
                        that old-timers try to teach the flood of new arrivals, and debates
                        about freedom of expression versus nurturance of community. About two
                        dozen social scientists, working for several years, might produce
                        conclusions that would help inform these debates and furnish a basis of
                        validated observation for all the theories flying around. A science of
                        Net behavior is not going to reshape the way people behave online, but
                        knowledge of the dynamics of how people do behave is an important
                        social feedback loop to install if the Net is to be self-governing at
                        any scale."

                        Here we are, a decade later, without much of that "social feedback
                        loop" in place. There's now an Association of Internet Researchers,
                        where a lot of interesting research is being talked about. And there's
                        certainly lots of exciting new software being developed. But there have
                        been huge gaps between the resesarch community and the development
                        community, and I think both sides are poorer for it.

                        What excites me about the budding SSA, and this new blog, is that both
                        seem to be moving towards more dialog in these areas. Both have
                        representation from both research and development, from the academy and
                        from industry. But all the participants have a history of working with
                        social technologies. Most were early adopters, many are innovators
                        and/or though tful critics in the field.

                        What's new is that these people are _talking_ to each other. (Not
                        always nicely, but that's still an improvement over silence.) Yes, we
                        need people to write code, build systems, think outside the box. But I
                        think we also need people to provide a feedback loop in that process.
                        It doesn't need to be--and _shouldn't_ be--an either/or situation.


                        .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.
                        Elizabeth Lane Lawley, Ph.D.
                        Asst. Professor - RIT/Info Tech
                        site: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/
                        blog: http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/mamamusings/
                        .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.


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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Danny Ayers
                        Dave is of course right when he says that the ideas aren t really new. NNTP news, email, the web itself etc etc are all arguably Social Software. Specifically
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 26, 2003
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                          Dave is of course right when he says that the ideas aren't really
                          new. NNTP news, email, the web itself etc etc are all arguably
                          Social Software. Specifically in light of recent developments, there
                          was at least one blog around 10+ years ago [1], and XML
                          news/syndication formats date back at least 6 years [2]. But the
                          difference is these things are now joining up like never before. The
                          infrastructure (hardware, protocols, languages) really is now ready
                          for the multi-way web.

                          A case in point: just now I got a comment from Dave on my blog.
                          Clicking on the link attached to his name took me to his blog. There
                          I read a post referring to this list. A moment or two later I
                          clicked "Join this Group" - and here I am. Hi folks!

                          This couldn't/wouldn't have happened a few years ago. IMHO it is an
                          extremely good time to reevaluate what we've got and where we're
                          going in the context of 'Social Software'.

                          Cheers,
                          Danny.

                          [1] http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-
                          hypertext/hypertext/WWW/News/9201.html
                          [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-CDFsubmit.html
                        • Dave Winer
                          ... Excuse me while I faint. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 26, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            >>Dave is of course right

                            Excuse me while I faint.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • marccanter
                            What excites me about the budding SSA, and this new blog, is that both seem to be moving towards more dialog in these areas. - Liz My hope is that we re done
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 26, 2003
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                              What excites me about the budding SSA, and this new blog, is that
                              both seem to be moving towards more dialog in these areas. - Liz

                              My hope is that we're done with technology as a flash in the pan, as
                              a way to make marketing hypesters rich at the expense of users
                              waiting for an upgrade to a product that's never going to get
                              upgraded. - Dave

                              Social software isn't a new thing. XML isn't new. Does that mean that
                              we should stop talking about them? - Liz

                              ----------

                              Clay made it clear (during his keynote at ETCON) that basic human
                              behavior patterns not only influence, but in fact dictate social
                              software. The phrase he's using - connotes not just technology but
                              also human behavior patterns.

                              This intermix and recognition of the sociological aspects of social
                              software is what's different now. Clay went on to quote numerous
                              books and studies which have disclosed classic group versus
                              individual conflicts that we all know well.

                              So what's new now?

                              A balance between the technical and sociological factors.
                              Technologists need to take into account these basic human behavior
                              patterns and sociologists need to learn about what's possible, and
                              request features and capabilities.
                            • Dave Winer
                              If I may present an alternate point of view -- what s different now is that Clay is hyping it, and it s exclusive.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 27, 2003
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                                If I may present an alternate point of view -- what's different now is that Clay is hyping it, and it's exclusive.

                                http://www.picpix.com/brad/gallery/0008kcbx?page=1

                                In that way it's very much like the hype balloons of the past.

                                To me it looks like a way for you to raise VC money and for Clay to get consulting contracts.

                                Too bad for the users of current products, I guess -- they have to wait for Clay and his friends to reinvent all the wheels, right?

                                Remember the CD ROM business, Marc?

                                Tell us about how stupid that was.

                                Dave

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Marc Canter
                                You re absolutely right. But I don t think we ll be reinventing the wheel as much as making sure our software is usable by humans. ... From: Dave Winer
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 27, 2003
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                                  You're absolutely right.

                                  But I don't think we'll be reinventing the wheel as much as making sure our
                                  software is usable by humans.
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]
                                  Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 2:03 AM
                                  To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [blogrollers] Re: New social software blog


                                  If I may present an alternate point of view -- what's different now is
                                  that Clay is hyping it, and it's exclusive.

                                  http://www.picpix.com/brad/gallery/0008kcbx?page=1

                                  In that way it's very much like the hype balloons of the past.

                                  To me it looks like a way for you to raise VC money and for Clay to get
                                  consulting contracts.

                                  Too bad for the users of current products, I guess -- they have to wait
                                  for Clay and his friends to reinvent all the wheels, right?

                                  Remember the CD ROM business, Marc?

                                  Tell us about how stupid that was.

                                  Dave

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Dave Winer
                                  The only part of that sentence that I would ask you to take a look at is our software. That s the problem with manufactured trends. Some stuff is inside the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 27, 2003
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                                    The only part of that sentence that I would ask you to take a look at is "our software."

                                    That's the problem with manufactured trends. Some stuff is inside the circle, and some is outside.

                                    And whether you're in or out does depend, as Andrew Orlowski posited and Clay dismissed with a joke, whether Clay likes you or not.

                                    Clay is a smart guy and he sure is easy to get along with, but he's not *that* smart, and easy-to-get-along-with is over-rated. Most goodsoftware is made by people who are not very easy to get along with because they are perfectionists, you have to be to get any quality to come out the other end. How much energy was wasted in the late 80s trying to get AI into your software. I saw that from the outside (I refused to jump on board) and then from the inside after merging with Symantec (an AI company, heh).

                                    Hey Symantec actually did do some AI software, and it wasn't bad. The funny thing is that the pundits had lost interest by the time they shipped, and the users never placed that high a value on software that understood what they meant. ;->

                                    Dave

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Marc Canter
                                    To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 5:11 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [blogrollers] Re: New social software blog


                                    You're absolutely right.

                                    But I don't think we'll be reinventing the wheel as much as making sure our
                                    software is usable by humans.
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]
                                    Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 2:03 AM
                                    To: blogrollers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [blogrollers] Re: New social software blog


                                    If I may present an alternate point of view -- what's different now is
                                    that Clay is hyping it, and it's exclusive.

                                    http://www.picpix.com/brad/gallery/0008kcbx?page=1

                                    In that way it's very much like the hype balloons of the past.

                                    To me it looks like a way for you to raise VC money and for Clay to get
                                    consulting contracts.

                                    Too bad for the users of current products, I guess -- they have to wait
                                    for Clay and his friends to reinvent all the wheels, right?

                                    Remember the CD ROM business, Marc?

                                    Tell us about how stupid that was.

                                    Dave

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Danny Ayers
                                    ... Not so. I don t think I have ever had any direct communication with Clay, but his writing on social software rang some bells for me. So I put my name on
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Apr 27, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      > The only part of that sentence that I would ask you to take a
                                      > look at is "our software."
                                      >
                                      > That's the problem with manufactured trends. Some stuff is inside
                                      > the circle, and some is outside.
                                      >
                                      > And whether you're in or out does depend, as Andrew Orlowski
                                      > posited and Clay dismissed with a joke, whether Clay likes you or not.

                                      Not so. I don't think I have ever had any direct communication with Clay,
                                      but his writing on social software rang some bells for me. So I put my name
                                      on the list (on the Wiki, in actual fact). I wish to associate myself with
                                      this work because I think the ideas are good. I will try and ensure that the
                                      software I write is interoperates well with other software, is usable by
                                      humans, etc etc. I am declaring *myself* inside the circle.

                                      > Clay is a smart guy and he sure is easy to get along with, but
                                      > he's not *that* smart, and easy-to-get-along-with is over-rated.

                                      He's getting a great Extended Winer Number...

                                      > Most goodsoftware is made by people who are not very easy to get
                                      > along with because they are perfectionists, you have to be to get
                                      > any quality to come out the other end.

                                      Twaddle. I've seen loads of good and bad software over the years, and if
                                      anything the better software came from people that were easy to get along
                                      with - probably because they were better listeners.

                                      How much energy was wasted
                                      > in the late 80s trying to get AI into your software. I saw that
                                      > from the outside (I refused to jump on board) and then from the
                                      > inside after merging with Symantec (an AI company, heh).
                                      >
                                      > Hey Symantec actually did do some AI software, and it wasn't bad.
                                      > The funny thing is that the pundits had lost interest by the time
                                      > they shipped, and the users never placed that high a value on
                                      > software that understood what they meant. ;->

                                      I don't really see what point you're trying to make here.

                                      Cheers,
                                      Danny.
                                    • David Weinberger
                                      Self/blog-promotion is ok on Blogrollers, isn t it? If so: I live-blogged the first Wolfram conference yesterday and will live-blog the morning sessions today.
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jun 28, 2003
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                                        Self/blog-promotion is ok on Blogrollers, isn't it?

                                        If so: I live-blogged the first Wolfram conference yesterday and will
                                        live-blog the morning sessions today. The entries start here:

                                        http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/mtarchive/001700.html

                                        And I write here about why I find Wolfram interesting:

                                        http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/mtarchive/001701.html

                                        If self/blog-promotion isn't ok on this list, then:

                                        1. Let me know.

                                        2. I won't do it again.

                                        3. I'm sorry.


                                        -- David W.
                                        -----------------------------------------------------------
                                        David Weinberger* 'zine: www.hyperorg.com
                                        self@... blog: www.hyperorg.com/blogger
                                        cluetrain: www.cluetrain.com
                                        new book: www.smallpieces.com
                                        speaking: www.hyperorg.com/speaker
                                        *Elevator statement on file with building supervisor
                                      • Dave Winer
                                        David, as founder of this list, imho it s totally appropriate. That s what the list is for, back-channel information sharing between weblogs, of exactly this
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jun 28, 2003
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                                          David, as founder of this list, imho it's totally appropriate. That's what the list is for, back-channel information sharing between weblogs, of exactly this ilk. Dave



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