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Re: [bisaya] Re: [bisaya_readers] Dialectology of Cebuano Question No 1

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  • Mario L. Cuezon
    mao man sulti ako up professor, dr. rosario cruz lucero one of the leading fictionists around. ... From: joseph vincent m libot Subject:
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 1, 2009
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      mao man sulti ako up professor, dr. rosario cruz lucero one of the leading fictionists around.


      --- On Wed, 12/24/08, joseph vincent m libot <joeviboy@...> wrote:
      From: joseph vincent m libot <joeviboy@...>
      Subject: [bisaya] Re: [bisaya_readers] Dialectology of Cebuano Question No 1
      To: bisaya@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 10:23 PM

      Ah, ningles man!
      Bitaw, agig tubag, murag di` ko sigurado nga ang Kinaray-a maoy
      gigikanan sa Hiligaynon.

      -Bay Gzosef way Hanaw

      PS: Mayng Pasko!

      --- In bisaya@yahoogroups. com, "Mario L. Cuezon" <mariolcuezon@ ...>
      wrote:
      >
      > di ba bay ang cebu or Zubo or zebu first appeared in pigafetta';s
      writing principally because the spanish language or probably italian
      too, has no g so instead of writing it as Sugbu they made it Zebu
      and later Cebu.
      >
      > Cebuano, is, di ba, pang -iningglis lang man na sa native of Cebu
      using the way things are done in the English language.
      >
      > as for boholano or bol-anon, it becomes a cebuano dialect because
      mas sumikat ang cebu. kung sumikat ang bohol, ang cebuano ang
      magiging dialect ng bohol.
      >
      > my teacher, dr. rosario cruz lucero says there is a proto-Visayan
      language from where cebuano, kinaray a  waray and others came from.
      kinaray-a is the proto-language of hiligaynon, capizeno, etc. ang sa
      cebuano nawala na and proto language like the kinaray a.
      >
      >
      > --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Manuel Faelnar <manuelfaelnar@ ...> wrote:
      > From: Manuel Faelnar <manuelfaelnar@ ...>
      > Subject: [bisaya] Re: [bisaya_readers] Dialectology of Cebuano
      Question No 1
      > To: bisaya_readers@ ...
      > Cc: "Aquilino Pimentel Jr." <nenepimentel@ ...>, "Edgar S. Godin"
      <bisaya_manilabulle tin@...>, "bisaya binisaya"
      <bisaya@yahoogroups. com>, mga_bisaya@yahoogro ups.com, "Bisaya
      Visayans" <visayans@yahoogroup s.com>, bycp@..., "Erlinda Alburo"
      <bisayangdaku@ ...>, "Macario Tiu" <mariodtiu@. ..>, "don pagusara"
      <bhaivishaya@ ...>
      > Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 11:37 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Bay Jose,
      >  
      > Tawgon tilang ka'g Bay kay may edad na man pod ko ug retired na
      pod.
      >  
      > Walay sapayan ug daghan pod kaayong salamat. Ipasa nako kining
      imong email
      > ngadto kang Edgar Godin, Associate Editor sa Bisaya Magasin, sa
      Lunsayng
      > Bisaya ug sa uban pang mga balayan sa internet sa mga Bisaya,
      >  
      > Ang sugyot nako, kun makatipon tipon kamong mga Bisaya,
      pagBinisaya.
      > Buhi kaaayo ang Binisaya diri sa Manila. Kitang mga Bisaya diri,
      dili gyod magpalupig.
      > Bag-o pa lang nagpasundayag og Bisaya Musical Extravaganza sa
      Cultural Center
      > of the Philippines. Adtong Nobiyembre 22. Sa mga tipon tipon sa
      mga Bisaya diri,
      > Binisaya gyod ang gamiton bisan pa og dili BIsaya ang mga asawa
      kon mga bana.
      >  
      > Ug maayo pod unta kun Binisaya ang sinultian nga gamiton sa
      panimalay.
      >  
      > Manny
      >  
      >
      >
      >  
      > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 6:36 PM, jose bastida <joebastida2001@
      yahoo.com> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Atty. Faelnar.
      >
      > Daghan kaayong salamat niining imong "essay" og
      > bililhon kaayong tubag niadtong mga estudyante nga
      > nagpadalag mga mahinungdanong kahibalo mahitungod sa
      > Binisaya ug Sinebwano nga linguahi.
      >
      >
      > Diri sa Palawan morag namatay na gani ang maanindot
      > kaayong sinultihan natong mga Sugboanon. Wala nay
      > mosultig Binisaya bisan pa ngadto sa mga Bisaya.
      > Tinagalog na gyud. Patyon na gyud sa mga Tagalog ang
      > Binisaya.
      >
      >
      > Sukad sa among pag lalin diri gikan sa Cebu, niadtong
      > 1992, wa na gyud kong kabasa ni makakita ug Bisaya
      > magazine diri. Wa gyuy nagbaligya ug Bisaya sa tanang
      > mga news-stand diri. May nag taho nga ang subscription
      >
      > price kuno kapin sa usa ka libo ka pesos ang tuig. Ang
      > akong mga anak ug mga apo dili na makamao mo sultig
      > Binisaya. Ug wa silay igo nga pangita aron maka
      > subscribe, tungod sa kalisud sa panginabuhi karon. Wa
      >
      > pud koy sweldo karon kay tiguwang na man.
      >
      > Maayo nalang gani kay duna may daghang Internet Cafe
      > diri. Dili gyud ko musogot nga mamatay ang atong
      > bililhong "Mother Tongue." Mosuway ako pag tigum ug
      >
      > kwarta aron maka suskriber bisan tulo lang ka buwan sa
      > Bisaya magazine. Pila kaha na? Apan duna ba kahay 3
      > months subscription. Kon maka afford ako mo suskriber
      > ako sa mahal kon magazine nga Bisaya.
      >
      > Jose Bastida
      >
      > <joebastida2001@ yahoo.com.>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- Manuel Faelnar <manuelfaelnar@ gmail.com> wrote:
      >
      > > I am helping a linguistics student prepare for her
      > > dissertation on the
      >
      > > Dialectology of Cebuano. She sent me about twelve
      > > questions and
      > > attached separate matrices for a list of 500 words,
      > > syntax, morphology.
      > > As the replies will be as comprehensive as possible,
      >
      > > we have agreed
      > > to send the replies to her one question at a time.
      > >
      > > This is a learning and very intersting exercise. I
      > > am learning as much
      > > as the student. My earlier essays in this forum also
      >
      > > helped.
      > > Let me share with you the reply to her Question 1.
      > > Will also
      > > share with you the replies to the other questions in
      > > the coming days.
      > >
      > > Manny
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > > 1.) Question: For you, how is Cebuano defined?
      > >
      > > Reply:
      > >
      > > It is hard to answer this question. Or, rather, the
      > > answer is complex
      > >
      > > Let us not forget that before the Spaniards and
      >
      > > other Europeans
      > > came to the Visayas, there was no word or place
      > > called Cebu and no language
      > > was called Cebuano. The Spaniards gave the name Cebu
      > > to the town of Sugbo
      > > and Cebuano to the people and language spoken in
      >
      > > Sugbo and adjacent places..
      > >
      > > The people of Sugbo called themselves then and now,
      > > Sugboanon or just
      > > Bisaya and their language Sinugbnoanon or simply
      > > Binisaya. (In fact, when I
      >
      > > was
      > > growing up in Cebu we always called our language
      > > Binisaya, not Cebuano. When
      > > we wanted Cebuano to be spoken we would say
      > > MagBinisaya lang ta or
      > > Binisay-on lang nato. However we did identify
      >
      > > ourselves as both Bisaya and
      > > Cebuano.
      > > For us and everyone in Cebu, the two were and are
      > > interchangeable. )..
      > >
      > >
      > > We must ask, how did Cebu and Cebuano come to
      > > identify the people and
      >
      > > language
      > > of the Central Visayas region? Documentary evidence
      > > would be hard to come by
      > > and
      > > may need years of research in Madrid, Spain.
      > > Nevertheless, what is
      > > established is
      >
      > > that the Diocese (now Archdiocese) of Cebu included
      > > what is now the Diocese
      > > of
      > > Dumaguete (Negros Oriental and Siquijor), the
      > > Diocese of Maasin (Southern
      > > Leyte),
      > > and the Dioceses of Tagbilaran and Talibon (Bohol),
      >
      > > Notice that Cebu was the
      > > administrative center or Diocese. My hypothesis is
      > > that perhaps, because the
      > > various
      > > vernaculars of Cebu, Southern Leyte, eastern Leyte,
      > > Bohol, Negros Oriental,
      >
      > > and
      > > Siquijor were mutually intelligible, and obviously
      > > dialects of one language,
      > > the Spaniards,
      > > ever so systematic, called the language Cebuano,
      > > Mind, it was the
      > > missionaries who
      >
      > > caused Cebuano to flourish. They studied Cebuano
      > > syntax and morphology and
      > > studied its grammar and put it in the Roman
      > > alphabet. The missionaries used
      > > Cebuano in their evangelizing work.
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > For over 300 years now, the Catholic Church has been
      > > the Sialo vernacular
      > > (a.k.a. Carcar-Dalaguet version or south-eastern
      > > Cebuano) as the standard
      > > for
      > > Cebuano translations of the Bible, printed prayers
      >
      > > and novenas as well as
      > > other
      > > religious publications such as the lives of the
      > > Saints or instructional
      > > materials
      > > in Cebuano, and now also the Mass which is now in
      > > the vernacular because of
      >
      > >
      > > Vatican II).
      > >
      > > Cebuano, therefore, has two meanings. Primarily it
      > > applies to the people and
      > > language of the Province of Cebu. Secondarily, it
      > > applies to all speakers of
      >
      > >
      > > vernaculars mutually intelligible with the
      > > vernaculars of Cebu, regardless
      > > of
      > > origin or location, as well as to the language they
      > > speak.
      > >
      > > The Secondary meaning is not accepted by many. For
      >
      > > example, generations of
      > > Cebuano speakers in northern Mindanao (Dipolog,
      > > Dapitan, Misamis Oriental,
      > > Misamis Occidental, coastal areas of Butuan) say
      > > that the are descended,
      > > not from settlers from the Visayas, but from Cebuano
      >
      > > speaking peoples
      > > native to the place. They do not identify themselves
      > > as Cebuanos, they are
      > > Bisaya,
      > > and they do not call the language they speak
      > > Cebuano, but Binisaya. In fact
      >
      > > many of
      > > them are surprised to learn that the language they
      > > speak is called Cebuano.
      > >
      > > The opposition to the Secondary meaning seems to
      > > have been adopted starting
      > > with the 2000 Census. We find in the 2000 Census a
      >
      > > new Category for the
      > > first time -
      > > Bisiya/Binisaya spoken by 8% of the population
      > > (obviously intended to refer
      > > to the
      > > Cebuano speakers of Mindanao. There are even
      > > observers who say that in
      >
      > > Dipolog
      > > people speak Cebuano and "Bisaya which is closely
      > > related to Cebuano". The
      > > observers were certainly confused and failed to
      > > understand the way Cebuano
      > > speakers
      >
      > > use Cebuano and Binisaya interchangeably. The 2000
      > > Census even introduced a
      > > separate Category - Boholano - spoken by 2% of the
      > > population. The Census
      > > people,
      > > it would seem, did not know what they were doing.
      >
      > >
      > > The issue is complex. But to summarize, Cebuano
      > > refers Primarily to
      > > the inhabitants
      > > of the Province of Cebu, their descendants, and to
      > > the language they speak.
      > > Secondarily
      >
      > > Cebuano applies to all speakers of vernaculars
      > > mutually intelligible with
      > > the vernaculars
      > > of Cebu, regardless of origin or location of the
      > > speakers, their
      > > descendants, and the language
      >
      > > they speak, but there is disagreement on this
      > > Secondary meaning.
      > >
      > > ---End of Forwarded Statement---
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --
      >
      > > Manuel Lino G. Faelnar
      > >
      > > Chairman for Language and Culture,
      > > Federalist Forum of the Philippines
      > >
      > > Director
      > > DILA Phils. Foundation, Inc.
      > > (Defenders of the Indigenous Languages of the
      >
      > > Archipelago)
      > >
      > > Director
      > > Lubas sa Dagang Bisaya, Inc. (LUDABI)
      > >
      > > "Without our language, we have no culture, we have
      > > no identity, we are
      > > nothing."
      > > Ornolfor Thorsson, adviser to President of Iceland.
      >
      > >
      > === message truncated ===
      >
      > New Email names for you!
      > Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and
      @rocketmail.
      > Hurry before someone else does!
      > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Manuel Lino G. Faelnar
      >
      >
      > Chairman for Language and Culture,
      > Federalist Forum of the Philippines
      >
      > Director
      > DILA Phils. Foundation, Inc.
      > (Defenders of the Indigenous Languages of the
      > Archipelago)
      >
      > Director
      > Lubas sa Dagang Bisaya, Inc. (LUDABI)
      >
      >
      > "Without our language, we have no culture, we have no identity, we
      are nothing."
      > Ornolfor Thorsson, adviser to President of Iceland.
      >
      > "When you lose a language you lose a culture, intellectual wealth,
      a work of art."
      >
      > Kenneth Hale, who taught linguistics at MIT.
      >
      > "Words, if powerful enough, can transport people into a journey,
      > real or imagined, that either creates
      > a fantasy or confirms reality."
      > Rachelle Arlin Credo, poet and
      >
      > writer.
      >
      > .
      >


    • Manuel Faelnar
      Mario, Si Prof. Rosario Cruz Lucero, hawod tuod nga mangsusulat og fiction ug dako ang iyang nahatag sa katitikang Pilipinhon. Apan mura g dili siya social
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 1, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Mario,

        Si Prof. Rosario Cruz Lucero, hawod tuod nga mangsusulat og fiction
        ug dako ang iyang nahatag sa katitikang Pilipinhon. Apan mura'g dili
        siya social scientist sa lingusitics. Matud pa sa Ethnologue ug sa Summer
        Institute of Linguistics, lahi nga pinulongan ang Kinaray-a sa Hiligaynon.
        Ang Hiligaynon dili pod gikan sa Kinaray-a. Lahi ra kaayo ang ilahang
        morphology ug syntax.

        Manuel

        2009/1/1 Mario L. Cuezon <mariolcuezon@...>

        mao man sulti ako up professor, dr. rosario cruz lucero one of the leading fictionists around.


        --- On Wed, 12/24/08, joseph vincent m libot <joeviboy@...> wrote:na
        From: joseph vincent m libot <joeviboy@...>

        Subject: [bisaya] Re: [bisaya_readers] Dialectology of Cebuano Question No 1
        To: bisaya@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 10:23 PM

        Ah, ningles man!
        Bitaw, agig tubag, murag di` ko sigurado nga ang Kinaray-a maoy
        gigikanan sa Hiligaynon.

        -Bay Gzosef way Hanaw

        PS: Mayng Pasko!

        --- In bisaya@yahoogroups. com, "Mario L. Cuezon" <mariolcuezon@ ...>
        wrote:
        >
        > di ba bay ang cebu or Zubo or zebu first appeared in pigafetta';s
        writing principally because the spanish language or probably italian
        too, has no g so instead of writing it as Sugbu they made it Zebu
        and later Cebu.
        >
        > Cebuano, is, di ba, pang -iningglis lang man na sa native of Cebu
        using the way things are done in the English language.
        >
        > as for boholano or bol-anon, it becomes a cebuano dialect because
        mas sumikat ang cebu. kung sumikat ang bohol, ang cebuano ang
        magiging dialect ng bohol.
        >
        > my teacher, dr. rosario cruz lucero says there is a proto-Visayan
        language from where cebuano, kinaray a  waray and others came from.
        kinaray-a is the proto-language of hiligaynon, capizeno, etc. ang sa
        cebuano nawala na and proto language like the kinaray a.
        >
        >
        > --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Manuel Faelnar <manuelfaelnar@ ...> wrote:
        > From: Manuel Faelnar <manuelfaelnar@ ...>
        > Subject: [bisaya] Re: [bisaya_readers] Dialectology of Cebuano
        Question No 1
        > To: bisaya_readers@ ...
        > Cc: "Aquilino Pimentel Jr." <nenepimentel@ ...>, "Edgar S. Godin"
        <bisaya_manilabulle tin@...>, "bisaya binisaya"
        Visayans" <visayans@yahoogroup s.com>, bycp@..., "Erlinda Alburo"
        <bisayangdaku@ ...>, "Macario Tiu" <mariodtiu@. ..>, "don pagusara"
        <bhaivishaya@ ...>
        > Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 11:37 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Bay Jose,
        >  
        > Tawgon tilang ka'g Bay kay may edad na man pod ko ug retired na
        pod.
        >  
        > Walay sapayan ug daghan pod kaayong salamat. Ipasa nako kining
        imong email
        > ngadto kang Edgar Godin, Associate Editor sa Bisaya Magasin, sa
        Lunsayng
        > Bisaya ug sa uban pang mga balayan sa internet sa mga Bisaya,
        >  
        > Ang sugyot nako, kun makatipon tipon kamong mga Bisaya,
        pagBinisaya.
        > Buhi kaaayo ang Binisaya diri sa Manila. Kitang mga Bisaya diri,
        dili gyod magpalupig.
        > Bag-o pa lang nagpasundayag og Bisaya Musical Extravaganza sa
        Cultural Center
        > of the Philippines. Adtong Nobiyembre 22. Sa mga tipon tipon sa
        mga Bisaya diri,
        > Binisaya gyod ang gamiton bisan pa og dili BIsaya ang mga asawa
        kon mga bana.
        >  
        > Ug maayo pod unta kun Binisaya ang sinultian nga gamiton sa
        panimalay.
        >  
        > Manny
        >  
        >
        >
        >  
        > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 6:36 PM, jose bastida <joebastida2001@
        yahoo.com> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Atty. Faelnar.
        >
        > Daghan kaayong salamat niining imong "essay" og
        > bililhon kaayong tubag niadtong mga estudyante nga
        > nagpadalag mga mahinungdanong kahibalo mahitungod sa
        > Binisaya ug Sinebwano nga linguahi.
        >
        >
        > Diri sa Palawan morag namatay na gani ang maanindot
        > kaayong sinultihan natong mga Sugboanon. Wala nay
        > mosultig Binisaya bisan pa ngadto sa mga Bisaya.
        > Tinagalog na gyud. Patyon na gyud sa mga Tagalog ang
        > Binisaya.
        >
        >
        > Sukad sa among pag lalin diri gikan sa Cebu, niadtong
        > 1992, wa na gyud kong kabasa ni makakita ug Bisaya
        > magazine diri. Wa gyuy nagbaligya ug Bisaya sa tanang
        > mga news-stand diri. May nag taho nga ang subscription
        >
        > price kuno kapin sa usa ka libo ka pesos ang tuig. Ang
        > akong mga anak ug mga apo dili na makamao mo sultig
        > Binisaya. Ug wa silay igo nga pangita aron maka
        > subscribe, tungod sa kalisud sa panginabuhi karon. Wa
        >
        > pud koy sweldo karon kay tiguwang na man.
        >
        > Maayo nalang gani kay duna may daghang Internet Cafe
        > diri. Dili gyud ko musogot nga mamatay ang atong
        > bililhong "Mother Tongue." Mosuway ako pag tigum ug
        >
        > kwarta aron maka suskriber bisan tulo lang ka buwan sa
        > Bisaya magazine. Pila kaha na? Apan duna ba kahay 3
        > months subscription. Kon maka afford ako mo suskriber
        > ako sa mahal kon magazine nga Bisaya.
        >
        > Jose Bastida
        >
        > <joebastida2001@ yahoo.com.>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- Manuel Faelnar <manuelfaelnar@ gmail.com> wrote:
        >
        > > I am helping a linguistics student prepare for her
        > > dissertation on the
        >
        > > Dialectology of Cebuano. She sent me about twelve
        > > questions and
        > > attached separate matrices for a list of 500 words,
        > > syntax, morphology.
        > > As the replies will be as comprehensive as possible,
        >
        > > we have agreed
        > > to send the replies to her one question at a time.
        > >
        > > This is a learning and very intersting exercise. I
        > > am learning as much
        > > as the student. My earlier essays in this forum also
        >
        > > helped.
        > > Let me share with you the reply to her Question 1.
        > > Will also
        > > share with you the replies to the other questions in
        > > the coming days.
        > >
        > > Manny
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > > 1.) Question: For you, how is Cebuano defined?
        > >
        > > Reply:
        > >
        > > It is hard to answer this question. Or, rather, the
        > > answer is complex
        > >
        > > Let us not forget that before the Spaniards and
        >
        > > other Europeans
        > > came to the Visayas, there was no word or place
        > > called Cebu and no language
        > > was called Cebuano. The Spaniards gave the name Cebu
        > > to the town of Sugbo
        > > and Cebuano to the people and language spoken in
        >
        > > Sugbo and adjacent places..
        > >
        > > The people of Sugbo called themselves then and now,
        > > Sugboanon or just
        > > Bisaya and their language Sinugbnoanon or simply
        > > Binisaya. (In fact, when I
        >
        > > was
        > > growing up in Cebu we always called our language
        > > Binisaya, not Cebuano. When
        > > we wanted Cebuano to be spoken we would say
        > > MagBinisaya lang ta or
        > > Binisay-on lang nato. However we did identify
        >
        > > ourselves as both Bisaya and
        > > Cebuano.
        > > For us and everyone in Cebu, the two were and are
        > > interchangeable. )..
        > >
        > >
        > > We must ask, how did Cebu and Cebuano come to
        > > identify the people and
        >
        > > language
        > > of the Central Visayas region? Documentary evidence
        > > would be hard to come by
        > > and
        > > may need years of research in Madrid, Spain.
        > > Nevertheless, what is
        > > established is
        >
        > > that the Diocese (now Archdiocese) of Cebu included
        > > what is now the Diocese
        > > of
        > > Dumaguete (Negros Oriental and Siquijor), the
        > > Diocese of Maasin (Southern
        > > Leyte),
        > > and the Dioceses of Tagbilaran and Talibon (Bohol),
        >
        > > Notice that Cebu was the
        > > administrative center or Diocese. My hypothesis is
        > > that perhaps, because the
        > > various
        > > vernaculars of Cebu, Southern Leyte, eastern Leyte,
        > > Bohol, Negros Oriental,
        >
        > > and
        > > Siquijor were mutually intelligible, and obviously
        > > dialects of one language,
        > > the Spaniards,
        > > ever so systematic, called the language Cebuano,
        > > Mind, it was the
        > > missionaries who
        >
        > > caused Cebuano to flourish. They studied Cebuano
        > > syntax and morphology and
        > > studied its grammar and put it in the Roman
        > > alphabet. The missionaries used
        > > Cebuano in their evangelizing work.
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > For over 300 years now, the Catholic Church has been
        > > the Sialo vernacular
        > > (a.k.a. Carcar-Dalaguet version or south-eastern
        > > Cebuano) as the standard
        > > for
        > > Cebuano translations of the Bible, printed prayers
        >
        > > and novenas as well as
        > > other
        > > religious publications such as the lives of the
        > > Saints or instructional
        > > materials
        > > in Cebuano, and now also the Mass which is now in
        > > the vernacular because of
        >
        > >
        > > Vatican II).
        > >
        > > Cebuano, therefore, has two meanings. Primarily it
        > > applies to the people and
        > > language of the Province of Cebu. Secondarily, it
        > > applies to all speakers of
        >
        > >
        > > vernaculars mutually intelligible with the
        > > vernaculars of Cebu, regardless
        > > of
        > > origin or location, as well as to the language they
        > > speak.
        > >
        > > The Secondary meaning is not accepted by many. For
        >
        > > example, generations of
        > > Cebuano speakers in northern Mindanao (Dipolog,
        > > Dapitan, Misamis Oriental,
        > > Misamis Occidental, coastal areas of Butuan) say
        > > that the are descended,
        > > not from settlers from the Visayas, but from Cebuano
        >
        > > speaking peoples
        > > native to the place. They do not identify themselves
        > > as Cebuanos, they are
        > > Bisaya,
        > > and they do not call the language they speak
        > > Cebuano, but Binisaya. In fact
        >
        > > many of
        > > them are surprised to learn that the language they
        > > speak is called Cebuano.
        > >
        > > The opposition to the Secondary meaning seems to
        > > have been adopted starting
        > > with the 2000 Census. We find in the 2000 Census a
        >
        > > new Category for the
        > > first time -
        > > Bisiya/Binisaya spoken by 8% of the population
        > > (obviously intended to refer
        > > to the
        > > Cebuano speakers of Mindanao. There are even
        > > observers who say that in
        >
        > > Dipolog
        > > people speak Cebuano and "Bisaya which is closely
        > > related to Cebuano". The
        > > observers were certainly confused and failed to
        > > understand the way Cebuano
        > > speakers
        >
        > > use Cebuano and Binisaya interchangeably. The 2000
        > > Census even introduced a
        > > separate Category - Boholano - spoken by 2% of the
        > > population. The Census
        > > people,
        > > it would seem, did not know what they were doing.
        >
        > >
        > > The issue is complex. But to summarize, Cebuano
        > > refers Primarily to
        > > the inhabitants
        > > of the Province of Cebu, their descendants, and to
        > > the language they speak.
        > > Secondarily
        >
        > > Cebuano applies to all speakers of vernaculars
        > > mutually intelligible with
        > > the vernaculars
        > > of Cebu, regardless of origin or location of the
        > > speakers, their
        > > descendants, and the language
        >
        > > they speak, but there is disagreement on this
        > > Secondary meaning.
        > >
        > > ---End of Forwarded Statement---
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        >
        > > Manuel Lino G. Faelnar
        > >
        > > Chairman for Language and Culture,
        > > Federalist Forum of the Philippines
        > >
        > > Director
        > > DILA Phils. Foundation, Inc.
        > > (Defenders of the Indigenous Languages of the
        >
        > > Archipelago)
        > >
        > > Director
        > > Lubas sa Dagang Bisaya, Inc. (LUDABI)
        > >
        > > "Without our language, we have no culture, we have
        > > no identity, we are
        > > nothing."
        > > Ornolfor Thorsson, adviser to President of Iceland.
        >
        > >
        > === message truncated ===
        >
        > New Email names for you!
        > Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and
        @rocketmail.
        > Hurry before someone else does!
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Manuel Lino G. Faelnar
        >
        >
        > Chairman for Language and Culture,
        > Federalist Forum of the Philippines
        >
        > Director
        > DILA Phils. Foundation, Inc.
        > (Defenders of the Indigenous Languages of the
        > Archipelago)
        >
        > Director
        > Lubas sa Dagang Bisaya, Inc. (LUDABI)
        >
        >
        > "Without our language, we have no culture, we have no identity, we
        are nothing."
        > Ornolfor Thorsson, adviser to President of Iceland.
        >
        > "When you lose a language you lose a culture, intellectual wealth,
        a work of art."
        >
        > Kenneth Hale, who taught linguistics at MIT.
        >
        > "Words, if powerful enough, can transport people into a journey,
        > real or imagined, that either creates
        > a fantasy or confirms reality."
        > Rachelle Arlin Credo, poet and
        >
        > writer.
        >
        > .
        >





        --
        Manuel Lino G. Faelnar

        Chairman for Language and Culture,
        Federalist Forum of the Philippines

        Director
        DILA Phils. Foundation, Inc.
        (Defenders of the Indigenous Languages of the
        Archipelago)

        Director
        Lubas sa Dagang Bisaya, Inc. (LUDABI)

        "Without our language, we have no culture, we have no identity, we are nothing."
        Ornolfor Thorsson, adviser to President of Iceland.

        "When you lose a language you lose a culture, intellectual wealth, a work of art."
        Kenneth Hale, who taught linguistics at MIT.

        "Words, if powerful enough, can transport people into a journey,
        real or imagined, that either creates
        a fantasy or confirms reality."
        Rachelle Arlin Credo, poet and
        writer.

        .
      • Neil Ryan Sumanda
        Dili man ni bahin sa proto-language o whatsoever bay, entity na man ang Binisaya. Dili man sa sinultian na basihan, ang mga Bisaya kadtong nagtuo nga sila
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 5, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Dili man 'ni bahin sa proto-language o whatsoever bay, entity na man ang Binisaya. Dili man sa sinultian 'na basihan, ang mga Bisaya kadtong nagtuo nga sila Bisaya og makalitok sa sinultian sa mga Bisaya. "It is beyond linguistic comprehension," matud pa.


          From: Mario L. Cuezon <mariolcuezon@...>
          To: bisaya@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 14:27:30
          Subject: Re: [bisaya] Re: [bisaya_readers] Dialectology of Cebuano Question No 1

          di ba bay ang cebu or Zubo or zebu first appeared in pigafetta';s writing principally because the spanish language or probably italian too, has no g so instead of writing it as Sugbu they made it Zebu and later Cebu.

          Cebuano, is, di ba, pang -iningglis lang man na sa native of Cebu using the way things are done in the English language.

          as for boholano or bol-anon, it becomes a cebuano dialect because mas sumikat ang cebu. kung sumikat ang bohol, ang cebuano ang magiging dialect ng bohol.

          my teacher, dr. rosario cruz lucero says there is a proto-Visayan language from where cebuano, kinaray a  waray and others came from. kinaray-a is the proto-language of hiligaynon, capizeno, etc. ang sa cebuano nawala na and proto language like the kinaray a.


          --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Manuel Faelnar <manuelfaelnar@ gmail.com> wrote:
          From: Manuel Faelnar <manuelfaelnar@ gmail.com>
          Subject: [bisaya] Re: [bisaya_readers] Dialectology of Cebuano Question No 1
          To: bisaya_readers@ yahoogroups. co.uk
          Cc: "Aquilino Pimentel Jr." <nenepimentel@ pldtdsl.net>, "Edgar S. Godin" <bisaya_manilabullet in@yahoo. com>, "bisaya binisaya" <bisaya@yahoogroups. com>, mga_bisaya@yahoogro ups.com, "Bisaya Visayans" <visayans@yahoogroup s.com>, bycp@.... net, "Erlinda Alburo" <bisayangdaku@ yahoo.com>, "Macario Tiu" <mariodtiu@yahoo. com>, "don pagusara" <bhaivishaya@ yahoo.com>
          Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 11:37 PM

          Bay Jose,
           
          Tawgon tilang ka'g Bay kay may edad na man pod ko ug retired na pod.
           
          Walay sapayan ug daghan pod kaayong salamat. Ipasa nako kining imong email
          ngadto kang Edgar Godin, Associate Editor sa Bisaya Magasin, sa Lunsayng
          Bisaya ug sa uban pang mga balayan sa internet sa mga Bisaya,
           
          Ang sugyot nako, kun makatipon tipon kamong mga Bisaya, pagBinisaya.
          Buhi kaaayo ang Binisaya diri sa Manila. Kitang mga Bisaya diri, dili gyod magpalupig.
          Bag-o pa lang nagpasundayag og Bisaya Musical Extravaganza sa Cultural Center
          of the Philippines. Adtong Nobiyembre 22. Sa mga tipon tipon sa mga Bisaya diri,
          Binisaya gyod ang gamiton bisan pa og dili BIsaya ang mga asawa kon mga bana.
           
          Ug maayo pod unta kun Binisaya ang sinultian nga gamiton sa panimalay.
           
          Manny
           


           
          On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 6:36 PM, jose bastida <joebastida2001@ yahoo.com> wrote:

          Atty. Faelnar.

          Daghan kaayong salamat niining imong "essay" og
          bililhon kaayong tubag niadtong mga estudyante nga
          nagpadalag mga mahinungdanong kahibalo mahitungod sa
          Binisaya ug Sinebwano nga linguahi.

          Diri sa Palawan morag namatay na gani ang maanindot
          kaayong sinultihan natong mga Sugboanon. Wala nay
          mosultig Binisaya bisan pa ngadto sa mga Bisaya.
          Tinagalog na gyud. Patyon na gyud sa mga Tagalog ang
          Binisaya.

          Sukad sa among pag lalin diri gikan sa Cebu, niadtong
          1992, wa na gyud kong kabasa ni makakita ug Bisaya
          magazine diri. Wa gyuy nagbaligya ug Bisaya sa tanang
          mga news-stand diri. May nag taho nga ang subscription
          price kuno kapin sa usa ka libo ka pesos ang tuig. Ang
          akong mga anak ug mga apo dili na makamao mo sultig
          Binisaya. Ug wa silay igo nga pangita aron maka
          subscribe, tungod sa kalisud sa panginabuhi karon. Wa
          pud koy sweldo karon kay tiguwang na man.

          Maayo nalang gani kay duna may daghang Internet Cafe
          diri. Dili gyud ko musogot nga mamatay ang atong
          bililhong "Mother Tongue." Mosuway ako pag tigum ug
          kwarta aron maka suskriber bisan tulo lang ka buwan sa
          Bisaya magazine. Pila kaha na? Apan duna ba kahay 3
          months subscription. Kon maka afford ako mo suskriber
          ako sa mahal kon magazine nga Bisaya.

          Jose Bastida
          <joebastida2001@ yahoo.com.>



          --- Manuel Faelnar <manuelfaelnar@ gmail.com> wrote:

          > I am helping a linguistics student prepare for her
          > dissertation on the
          > Dialectology of Cebuano. She sent me about twelve
          > questions and
          > attached separate matrices for a list of 500 words,
          > syntax, morphology..
          > As the replies will be as comprehensive as possible,
          > we have agreed
          > to send the replies to her one question at a time.
          >
          > This is a learning and very intersting exercise. I
          > am learning as much
          > as the student. My earlier essays in this forum also
          > helped.
          > Let me share with you the reply to her Question 1..
          > Will also
          > share with you the replies to the other questions in
          > the coming days.
          >
          > Manny
          >
          >
          >
          > 1.) Question: For you, how is Cebuano defined?
          >
          > Reply:
          >
          > It is hard to answer this question. Or, rather, the
          > answer is complex
          >
          > Let us not forget that before the Spaniards and
          > other Europeans
          > came to the Visayas, there was no word or place
          > called Cebu and no language
          > was called Cebuano. The Spaniards gave the name Cebu
          > to the town of Sugbo
          > and Cebuano to the people and language spoken in
          > Sugbo and adjacent places..
          >
          > The people of Sugbo called themselves then and now,
          > Sugboanon or just
          > Bisaya and their language Sinugbnoanon or simply
          > Binisaya. (In fact, when I
          > was
          > growing up in Cebu we always called our language
          > Binisaya, not Cebuano. When
          > we wanted Cebuano to be spoken we would say
          > MagBinisaya lang ta or
          > Binisay-on lang nato. However we did identify
          > ourselves as both Bisaya and
          > Cebuano.
          > For us and everyone in Cebu, the two were and are
          > interchangeable. )..
          >
          >
          > We must ask, how did Cebu and Cebuano come to
          > identify the people and
          > language
          > of the Central Visayas region? Documentary evidence
          > would be hard to come by
          > and
          > may need years of research in Madrid, Spain.
          > Nevertheless, what is
          > established is
          > that the Diocese (now Archdiocese) of Cebu included
          > what is now the Diocese
          > of
          > Dumaguete (Negros Oriental and Siquijor), the
          > Diocese of Maasin (Southern
          > Leyte),
          > and the Dioceses of Tagbilaran and Talibon (Bohol),
          > Notice that Cebu was the
          > administrative center or Diocese. My hypothesis is
          > that perhaps, because the
          > various
          > vernaculars of Cebu, Southern Leyte, eastern Leyte,
          > Bohol, Negros Oriental,
          > and
          > Siquijor were mutually intelligible, and obviously
          > dialects of one language,
          > the Spaniards,
          > ever so systematic, called the language Cebuano,
          > Mind, it was the
          > missionaries who
          > caused Cebuano to flourish. They studied Cebuano
          > syntax and morphology and
          > studied its grammar and put it in the Roman
          > alphabet. The missionaries used
          > Cebuano in their evangelizing work.
          >
          >
          > For over 300 years now, the Catholic Church has been
          > the Sialo vernacular
          > (a.k.a. Carcar-Dalaguet version or south-eastern
          > Cebuano) as the standard
          > for
          > Cebuano translations of the Bible, printed prayers
          > and novenas as well as
          > other
          > religious publications such as the lives of the
          > Saints or instructional
          > materials
          > in Cebuano, and now also the Mass which is now in
          > the vernacular because of
          >
          > Vatican II).
          >
          > Cebuano, therefore, has two meanings. Primarily it
          > applies to the people and
          > language of the Province of Cebu. Secondarily, it
          > applies to all speakers of
          >
          > vernaculars mutually intelligible with the
          > vernaculars of Cebu, regardless
          > of
          > origin or location, as well as to the language they
          > speak.
          >
          > The Secondary meaning is not accepted by many. For
          > example, generations of
          > Cebuano speakers in northern Mindanao (Dipolog,
          > Dapitan, Misamis Oriental,
          > Misamis Occidental, coastal areas of Butuan) say
          > that the are descended,
          > not from settlers from the Visayas, but from Cebuano
          > speaking peoples
          > native to the place. They do not identify themselves
          > as Cebuanos, they are
          > Bisaya,
          > and they do not call the language they speak
          > Cebuano, but Binisaya. In fact
          > many of
          > them are surprised to learn that the language they
          > speak is called Cebuano.
          >
          > The opposition to the Secondary meaning seems to
          > have been adopted starting
          > with the 2000 Census. We find in the 2000 Census a
          > new Category for the
          > first time -
          > Bisiya/Binisaya spoken by 8% of the population
          > (obviously intended to refer
          > to the
          > Cebuano speakers of Mindanao. There are even
          > observers who say that in
          > Dipolog
          > people speak Cebuano and "Bisaya which is closely
          > related to Cebuano". The
          > observers were certainly confused and failed to
          > understand the way Cebuano
          > speakers
          > use Cebuano and Binisaya interchangeably. The 2000
          > Census even introduced a
          > separate Category - Boholano - spoken by 2% of the
          > population. The Census
          > people,
          > it would seem, did not know what they were doing.
          >
          > The issue is complex. But to summarize, Cebuano
          > refers Primarily to
          > the inhabitants
          > of the Province of Cebu, their descendants, and to
          > the language they speak.
          > Secondarily
          > Cebuano applies to all speakers of vernaculars
          > mutually intelligible with
          > the vernaculars
          > of Cebu, regardless of origin or location of the
          > speakers, their
          > descendants, and the language
          > they speak, but there is disagreement on this
          > Secondary meaning.
          >
          > ---End of Forwarded Statement---
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Manuel Lino G. Faelnar
          >
          > Chairman for Language and Culture,
          > Federalist Forum of the Philippines
          >
          > Director
          > DILA Phils. Foundation, Inc.
          > (Defenders of the Indigenous Languages of the
          > Archipelago)
          >
          > Director
          > Lubas sa Dagang Bisaya, Inc. (LUDABI)
          >
          > "Without our language, we have no culture, we have
          > no identity, we are
          > nothing."
          > Ornolfor Thorsson, adviser to President of Iceland.
          >
          === message truncated ===

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          --
          Manuel Lino G. Faelnar

          Chairman for Language and Culture,
          Federalist Forum of the Philippines

          Director
          DILA Phils. Foundation, Inc.
          (Defenders of the Indigenous Languages of the
          Archipelago)

          Director
          Lubas sa Dagang Bisaya, Inc. (LUDABI)

          "Without our language, we have no culture, we have no identity, we are nothing."
          Ornolfor Thorsson, adviser to President of Iceland.

          "When you lose a language you lose a culture, intellectual wealth, a work of art."
          Kenneth Hale, who taught linguistics at MIT.

          "Words, if powerful enough, can transport people into a journey,
          real or imagined, that either creates
          a fantasy or confirms reality."
          Rachelle Arlin Credo, poet and
          writer.

          .



          New Email names for you!
          Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail.
          Hurry before someone else does!
        • Neil Ryan Sumanda
          Bully Language gud tawon. ________________________________ From: Renato F. Gutierrez To: bisaya@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday,
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 5, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Bully Language gud tawon.


            From: Renato F. Gutierrez <manlalaban@...>
            To: bisaya@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:06:43
            Subject: Re: [bisaya] Re: [bisaya_readers] Dialectology of Cebuano Question No 1

            Ang pinulungan'ng sugbuanon mao karon ang pinulongang nagpasulabi sa Mindanao ug mao ang gitawag nga Bisaya sa kadaghnan.Mao kini karon ang gitawag nga "bully language" sa kapuloang Pilipinas. Apan gituho-an nga mao kini ang dili malimod nga kinaiyahan , kay ang tinagalog sanga ra man gani sa atong binisaya sa kanhi-ay. Atong garbo ang atong pinulongan.

            Renato Gutierrez
            Perris, California
            manlalaban@earthlin k.net

            --._,___
            
            



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