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Re: [biopoet] Re: On consilience and literary Darwinism (weblog post) - CONT

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  • JT Velikovsky
    Hey JT I used to love all Lyall Watson s stuff --- until I found out, he apparently made up that `100th monkey theory, in /Lifetide/. (...I still do love his
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 26, 2013
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      Hey JT

      I used to love all Lyall Watson's stuff --- until I found out, he apparently made up that `100th monkey' theory, in Lifetide.
      (...I still do love his stuff, but - it's now, a bit tainted for me...)

      Cheers,

      The Other JT




      On 26/08/2013 11:53 PM, Jeff Turpin wrote:
       

      p.s.  Recent pubs on “neophilia” (Lyall Watson?) discuss and document the human affinity for (and the adaptive nature of) finding or creating the “new.”  It’s over-hyped (the norm is probably more important for the general population), but firmly grounds this particular type of creativity. jt

       

      From: biopoet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biopoet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Turpin
      Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 8:03 AM
      To: biopoet@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [biopoet] Re: On consilience and literary Darwinism (weblog post) - CONT

       

       

      Mike—While this conversation has become a bit like a tennis match, rather than a composite drive towards truth ;-), I like that bit about education from Deutsch.  I’ve always felt that transmitting facts, or even equations, to students was only minimally productive, but taking them to the cusp of “Aha!” moments, and then letting them slalom through the moment by themselves, was a way of training their neurons for discovery.  The world of academic “facts” has gotten too large for any student to encompass, but giving them fields of normativity and training them to spot the empty spaces and dive in, is a bit more productive.  Sort of like jazz.  jt

       

      From: biopoet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biopoet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tintner michael
      Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 6:06 AM
      To: biopoet@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [biopoet] Re: On consilience and literary Darwinism (weblog post) - CONT

       

       

      JT: all I've done here is try and present you with, the current 
      scientific literature on Creativity - which, you seem very unaware of - 

       

      Rather than refer to old literature, (which I am aware of), you should look at a crucial essay,only last year, from the father of quantum computation, David Deutsch.

       

       

      "Creative blocks"

      "The very laws of physics imply that artificial intelligence must be possible what's holding us up?"

       

      You see, what's at stake here is not simply whether the scientific conception of life (and art) as algorithmic is applicable to the arts, but also whether the conception of intelligence generally as algorithmic will ever produce human-or-animal-like intelligence in machines  - because so far it has been, as Deutsch indicates, a total failure. No algorithmic program is other than a limited, completely confined recipe, or has ever gone on like humans to endlessly explore both the physical and the intellectual world - and shown "general" as opposed to hyperspecialist intelligence.. 

       

      Algorithmic programs IOW are massively inadequate to explain human intelligence, and completely incapable of explaining human creativity,.

       

      Deutsch argues:

      "what distinguishes human brains from all other physical systems is qualitatively different from all other functionalities, and cannot be specified in the way that all other attributes of computer programs can be. It cannot be programmed by any of the techniques that suffice for writing any other type of program. Nor can it be achieved merely by improving their performance at tasks that they currently do perform, no matter by how much.

      Why? I call the core functionality in question creativity: the ability to produce new explanations."

      Having already produced one revolution in computing, Deutsch is in effect calling for another - for a fundamentally new kind of program, which is completely opposed to dumb algorithms.

      "we must stop regarding education (of humans or AGIs alike) as instruction — as a means of transmitting existing knowledge unaltered, and causing existing values to be enacted obediently. As Popper wrote (in the context of scientific discovery, but it applies equally to the programming of AGIs and the education of children): ‘there is no such thing as instruction from without … We do not discover new facts or new effects by copying them, or by inferring them inductively from observation, or by any other method of instruction by the environment. We use, rather, the method of trial and the elimination of error.’ That is to say, conjecture and criticism. Learning must be something that newly created intelligences do, and control, for themselves."

      Producing a new work of art is an example of such "learning" - and creativity..

      There *will* be a programming revolution in AI  - and thence in the way science views life (and art) as programmed. And actually the arts are crucial to that revolution -  in a whole variety of ways.

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       


      -- 
      -----------------------
      
      JT Velikovsky
      Film/Story/Screenplay/Transmedia Analyst
      http://storyality.wordpress.com/
      
      and Transmedia Writer-Director-Producer: 
      Movies, Games, TV, Theatre, Books, Comics
      
      Transmedia Writing Blog: http://on-writering.blogspot.com/
      
      Free Screenwriting TextBook: http://www.lulu.com/shop/joe-velikovsky/feature-film-screenwriters-workbook/ebook/product-20376941.html
      
      Transmedia Comic-Fantasy Novel: http://am-so-as.webs.com/
      
      Email: joetv@...
      Also: joetv@...
      Skype: joe.tee.vee
      Twitter: @joeteevee
      
      Imdb: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2853350/
      Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Velikovsky
      YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/joeteevee
      
      aka: JT Velikovsky
      Research Student & Filmmaker 
      Doctorate of Creative Arts - Feature Film / Screenwriting
      School of Humanities and Communication Arts
      University of Western Sydney
      
      This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. 
      
      If you have received this email in error please notify joetv@...
      This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for known viruses
    • JT Velikovsky
      Hi JT, Mike - Actually - good idea - I am going to try that approach, right now. So - Mike - you made me read that Deutsch article, which only reinforced
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 26, 2013
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        Hi JT, Mike -

        Actually - good idea - I am going to try that approach, right now.

        So - Mike - you made me read that Deutsch article, which only reinforced everything I've been saying - so now, you have to do this: :)

        - Pick your favourite Creative...

        ie - Your favourite novelist - or, filmmaker, or poet, or musician, or scientist, or - anything.
        Someone who was: H-Creative (ie - Historically Creative, ie - famous)
        and not: p-Creative (not just someone who was `personally' Creative, like: that random guy from Alberquerque that we've all never heard of, who: wears his pants backwards, or - wrote his obscure novel that none of us have heard of while looking at the pages in a mirror, or - whatever.)

        Now - check their life history - in great detail. And I do mean: in great detail.

        Now check -- if it matches with: this algorithm --

        (1) They were born into: a specific Society and Culture.
        (eg Say, New York in the 1940s. Or Hungary in the 20's, or - whatever)
        And - born with: certain `talents' - ie - biological (seewhat adapted biological `talents' their parents had, and whether these are the same as the kid, as sometimes this is inherited, though given the ways genes combine, sometimes the parents were not recognized as `talented'), and see also about their: psychological, social, and cultural predispositions.Given: their birth-parents.

        (2) See if: they developed a `feel for the game' (habitus) over their entire lifetime
        (eg - If they are a famous musician, then like say Mozart - were they playing concertos, at age 4?)

        (3) See if they absorbed a specific creative domain
        (eg Mozart: learning all about, music... mainly lots of reading, and lots of lessons), etc

        (4) See if they internalized that domain, over about 10 years...
        (ie 10 years of reading, going to lectures, talking to others in the field, and practising and also - producing some pretty crappy stuff at first - that is merely imitative and non-original,
        ie: `derivative'. Non "creative"... ie that the Field never judged "creative")

        (5) See if they did this - over an average of about 10 years.
        (Or was it say 5 years, or 20 years? ie - 10 years is an average), Also - when you check the time they spent doing it - Was it about 10,000 hours? (Which is about: 10 years.)

        (6) See if - they met others in the field - and they found a `position' within it
        (eg "Oh, who - Mozart? That fairly-talented piano-kid? Sure, I know him. I went to a concert he gave last week. It was pretty derivative - but he might be pretty good, some day...?")

        (7) See if they acquired access to money, (Economiccapital, ie see if: they had a patron, or a backer), Socialcapital (ie In the creative arts, it's "Who you know", ie who is powerful in that creative industry); and, Culturalcapital (basically: see if they read lots of books, and- if you're Mozart, see if he went to lots of concerts, and hung out with other composers, etc etc)

        (8) See if -- at some exact point in their career (*BUT ONLY AFTER COMPLETING ALL THE PREVIOUS STEPS, IN THE ABOVE ORDER....*) they produced: a Creative work that the Field (the audience for that Domain) judged "creative". Something that made them "famous" (if only in: the field. ie Not even the entire world.)
        Note also how many failures they had before this one...I bet, that this was: not their `first work' in that Domain. (eg novels, film, music, science, whatever.)
        In fact it was usually their 10th. ie the first 9 or so, flopped. Usually these (all the early `failures') are *rarely reported anywhere*, so you will need to research this (their past `failures', eg their novels that sold about 100 copies etc), very intensely.

        (9) Note - the exact critical reviews of that `first' big creative success, or the exact sales figures, or the exact box office, or exact album sales, or: say, their first art exhibition where their paintings `famously' sold - or, whatever is the relevant measure of the `first' creative work that they are `known' for...

        (10) Note whether the creativity was (a) Commercial -- or (b) Critical...
        -- and note, if it's actually both... (as - they very rarely coincide. Usually the critical successes come much much later in their career. eg How many people will a Pulitzer for their first novel? or an Oscar - in any category - for their first film? What percentage of all creatives, overall? - About 0.00001%)

        (11) Note when they acquired Symbolic capital: exactly on what date they received an award, (eg an Oscar, or a Grammy, or a Golden Lion, or a Pulitzer Prize for Literature, or a Nobel Prize for Science, or - whatever-it-was).
        Note also - who bestowed it on them. Note also - if they got any othertitles, honours, awards, or say membership of exclusive Creative Guilds, or the Royal Society - whatever, and at what time in their creative life/career.

        (12) Note if -- they then continued the cycle, backfrom #1, even being "born again" as a creative artist, or changing disciplines, or whatever.
        Or did they skip those earlier steps having reached #8 - and just keep creating more creative works (which is fine. Once you have reached Step 8, you do not need to go back to: Step 1 but you can if you want.)
        ie - Did they continue to keep creating more creative works?
        And - If so, was that: through Logic, or Chance, or Genius, or Zeitgeist? (or even - all 4?)

        (13) Note also the exact date and place that they retired - or died - or both.



        And Mike... just `see where that takes you', in your thinking about: algorithms, and creativity...
        ie: The above being:  http://storyality.wordpress.com/Creative-Practice-Theory/


        Cheers

        JT

        Ps - And also - speaking of how jt mentions `jazz' below -
        Prof. R Keith Sawyer (Explaining Creativity, 2012) has done a lot of work on jazz musicians - and: their collaborative creativity.
        ie - He has focussed on Group Creativity, in his scientific research, whereas Csikszentmihalyi focusses on individual (oneperson) creativity.
        ie - Read all these books, and in this order: http://storyality.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/storyality-71-Consilience-is-coming-read-all-about-it/


        -- 
        -----------------------
        
        JT Velikovsky
        Film/Story/Screenplay/Transmedia Analyst
        http://storyality.wordpress.com/
        
        and Transmedia Writer-Director-Producer: 
        Movies, Games, TV, Theatre, Books, Comics
        
        Transmedia Writing Blog: http://on-writering.blogspot.com/
        
        Free Screenwriting TextBook: http://www.lulu.com/shop/joe-velikovsky/feature-film-screenwriters-workbook/ebook/product-20376941.html
        
        Transmedia Comic-Fantasy Novel: http://am-so-as.webs.com/
        
        Email: joetv@...
        Also: joetv@...
        Skype: joe.tee.vee
        Twitter: @joeteevee
        
        Imdb: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2853350/
        Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Velikovsky
        YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/joeteevee
        
        aka: JT Velikovsky
        Research Student & Filmmaker 
        Doctorate of Creative Arts - Feature Film / Screenwriting
        School of Humanities and Communication Arts
        University of Western Sydney
        
        This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. 
        
        If you have received this email in error please notify joetv@...
        This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for known viruses





        On 26/08/2013 11:03 PM, Jeff Turpin wrote:
         

        Mike—While this conversation has become a bit like a tennis match, rather than a composite drive towards truth ;-), I like that bit about education from Deutsch.  I’ve always felt that transmitting facts, or even equations, to students was only minimally productive, but taking them to the cusp of “Aha!” moments, and then letting them slalom through the moment by themselves, was a way of training their neurons for discovery.  The world of academic “facts” has gotten too large for any student to encompass, but giving them fields of normativity and training them to spot the empty spaces and dive in, is a bit more productive.  Sort of like jazz.  jt

         



        -- 
        -----------------------
        
        JT Velikovsky
        Film/Story/Screenplay/Transmedia Analyst
        http://storyality.wordpress.com/
        
        and Transmedia Writer-Director-Producer: 
        Movies, Games, TV, Theatre, Books, Comics
        
        Transmedia Writing Blog: http://on-writering.blogspot.com/
        
        Free Screenwriting TextBook: http://www.lulu.com/shop/joe-velikovsky/feature-film-screenwriters-workbook/ebook/product-20376941.html
        
        Transmedia Comic-Fantasy Novel: http://am-so-as.webs.com/
        
        Email: joetv@...
        Also: joetv@...
        Skype: joe.tee.vee
        Twitter: @joeteevee
        
        Imdb: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2853350/
        Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Velikovsky
        YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/joeteevee
        
        aka: JT Velikovsky
        Research Student & Filmmaker 
        Doctorate of Creative Arts - Feature Film / Screenwriting
        School of Humanities and Communication Arts
        University of Western Sydney
        
        This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. 
        
        If you have received this email in error please notify joetv@...
        This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for known viruses


      • Jeff Turpin
        You guys might want to take this conversation off the listserv and into interpersonal emails. I note that there is little or no feedback from other members,
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 26, 2013
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          You guys might want to take this conversation off the listserv and into interpersonal emails.  I note that there is little or no feedback from other members, and ultimately you might be chasing them away, which is the opposite of the intent of the listserv . . . unless, of course, your objective is to drive people away from the list, in which case . . . jt

           

          From: biopoet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biopoet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of JT Velikovsky
          Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 8:11 PM
          To: biopoet@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Fwd: Re: [biopoet] Re: On consilience and literary Darwinism (weblog post) - CONT - Creativity ...Try this simple (Creativity) exercise...

           

           

          Hi JT, Mike -


          Actually - good idea - I am going to try that approach, right now.

          So - Mike - you made me read that Deutsch article, which only reinforced everything I've been saying - so now, you have to do this: :)

          - Pick your favourite Creative...

          ie - Your favourite novelist - or, filmmaker, or poet, or musician, or scientist, or - anything.
          Someone who was: H-Creative (ie - Historically Creative, ie - famous)
          and not: p-Creative (not just someone who was `personally' Creative, like: that random guy from Alberquerque that we've all never heard of, who: wears his pants backwards, or - wrote his obscure novel that none of us have heard of while looking at the pages in a mirror, or - whatever.)

          Now - check their life history - in great detail. And I do mean: in great detail.

          Now check -- if it matches with: this algorithm --

          (1) They were born into: a specific Society and Culture.
          (eg Say, New York in the 1940s. Or Hungary in the 20's, or - whatever)
          And - born with: certain `talents' - ie - biological (see what adapted biological `talents' their parents had, and whether these are the same as the kid, as sometimes this is inherited, though given the ways genes combine, sometimes the parents were not recognized as `talented'), and see also about their: psychological, social, and cultural predispositions. Given: their birth-parents.

          (2) See if: they developed a `feel for the game' (habitus) over their entire lifetime
          (eg - If they are a famous musician, then like say Mozart - were they playing concertos, at age 4?)

          (3) See if they absorbed a specific creative domain
          (eg Mozart: learning all about, music... mainly lots of reading, and lots of lessons), etc

          (4) See if they internalized that domain, over about 10 years...
          (ie 10 years of reading, going to lectures, talking to others in the field, and practising and also - producing some pretty crappy stuff at first - that is merely imitative and non-original,
          ie: `derivative'. Non "creative"... ie that the Field never judged "creative")

          (5) See if they did this - over an average of about 10 years.
          (Or was it say 5 years, or 20 years? ie - 10 years is an average), Also - when you check the time they spent doing it - Was it about 10,000 hours? (Which is about: 10 years.)

          (6) See if - they met others in the field - and they found a `position' within it
          (eg "Oh, who - Mozart? That fairly-talented piano-kid? Sure, I know him. I went to a concert he gave last week. It was pretty derivative - but he might be pretty good, some day...?")

          (7) See if they acquired access to money, (Economic capital, ie see if: they had a patron, or a backer), Social capital (ie In the creative arts, it's "Who you know", ie who is powerful in that creative industry); and, Cultural capital (basically: see if they read lots of books, and - if you're Mozart, see if he went to lots of concerts, and hung out with other composers, etc etc)

          (8) See if -- at some exact point in their career (*BUT ONLY AFTER COMPLETING ALL THE PREVIOUS STEPS, IN THE ABOVE ORDER....*) they produced: a Creative work that the Field (the audience for that Domain) judged "creative". Something that made them "famous" (if only in: the field. ie Not even the entire world.)
          Note also how many failures they had before this one... I bet, that this was: not their `first work' in that Domain. (eg novels, film, music, science, whatever.)
          In fact it was usually their 10th. ie the first 9 or so, flopped. Usually these (all the early `failures') are *rarely reported anywhere*, so you will need to research this (their past `failures', eg their novels that sold about 100 copies etc), very intensely.

          (9) Note - the exact critical reviews of that `first' big creative success, or the exact sales figures, or the exact box office, or exact album sales, or: say, their first art exhibition where their paintings `famously' sold - or, whatever is the relevant measure of the `first' creative work that they are `known' for...

          (10) Note whether the creativity was (a) Commercial -- or (b) Critical...
          -- and note, if it's actually both... (as - they very rarely coincide. Usually the critical successes come much much later in their career. eg How many people will a Pulitzer for their first novel? or an Oscar - in any category - for their first film? What percentage of all creatives, overall? - About 0.00001%)

          (11) Note when they acquired Symbolic capital: exactly on what date they received an award, (eg an Oscar, or a Grammy, or a Golden Lion, or a Pulitzer Prize for Literature, or a Nobel Prize for Science, or - whatever-it-was).
          Note also - who bestowed it on them. Note also - if they got any other titles, honours, awards, or say membership of exclusive Creative Guilds, or the Royal Society - whatever, and at what time in their creative life/career.

          (12) Note if -- they then continued the cycle, back from #1, even being "born again" as a creative artist, or changing disciplines, or whatever.
          Or did they skip those earlier steps having reached #8 - and just keep creating more creative works (which is fine. Once you have reached Step 8, you do not need to go back to: Step 1 but you can if you want.)
          ie - Did they continue to keep creating more creative works?
          And - If so, was that: through Logic, or Chance, or Genius, or Zeitgeist? (or even - all 4?)

          (13) Note also the exact date and place that they retired - or died - or both.



          And Mike... just `see where that takes you', in your thinking about: algorithms, and creativity...
          ie: The above being:  http://storyality.wordpress.com/Creative-Practice-Theory/


          Cheers

          JT

          Ps - And also - speaking of how jt mentions `jazz' below -
          Prof. R Keith Sawyer (Explaining Creativity, 2012) has done a lot of work on jazz musicians - and: their collaborative creativity.
          ie - He has focussed on Group Creativity, in his scientific research, whereas Csikszentmihalyi focusses on individual (one person) creativity.
          ie - Read all these books, and in this order: http://storyality.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/storyality-71-Consilience-is-coming-read-all-about-it/



          -- 
          -----------------------
            
          JT Velikovsky
          Film/Story/Screenplay/Transmedia Analyst
          http://storyality.wordpress.com/
            
          and Transmedia Writer-Director-Producer: 
          Movies, Games, TV, Theatre, Books, Comics
            
          Transmedia Writing Blog: http://on-writering.blogspot.com/
            
          Free Screenwriting TextBook: http://www.lulu.com/shop/joe-velikovsky/feature-film-screenwriters-workbook/ebook/product-20376941.html
            
          Transmedia Comic-Fantasy Novel: http://am-so-as.webs.com/
            
          Email: joetv@...
          Also: joetv@...
          Skype: joe.tee.vee
          Twitter: @joeteevee
            
          Imdb: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2853350/
          Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Velikovsky
          YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/joeteevee
            
          aka: JT Velikovsky
          Research Student & Filmmaker 
          Doctorate of Creative Arts - Feature Film / Screenwriting
          School of Humanities and Communication Arts
          University of Western Sydney
            
          This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. 
            
          If you have received this email in error please notify joetv@...
          This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for known viruses





          On 26/08/2013 11:03 PM, Jeff Turpin wrote:

           

          Mike—While this conversation has become a bit like a tennis match, rather than a composite drive towards truth ;-), I like that bit about education from Deutsch.  I’ve always felt that transmitting facts, or even equations, to students was only minimally productive, but taking them to the cusp of “Aha!” moments, and then letting them slalom through the moment by themselves, was a way of training their neurons for discovery.  The world of academic “facts” has gotten too large for any student to encompass, but giving them fields of normativity and training them to spot the empty spaces and dive in, is a bit more productive.  Sort of like jazz.  jt

           

           



          -- 
          -----------------------
            
          JT Velikovsky
          Film/Story/Screenplay/Transmedia Analyst
          http://storyality.wordpress.com/
            
          and Transmedia Writer-Director-Producer: 
          Movies, Games, TV, Theatre, Books, Comics
            
          Transmedia Writing Blog: http://on-writering.blogspot.com/
            
          Free Screenwriting TextBook: http://www.lulu.com/shop/joe-velikovsky/feature-film-screenwriters-workbook/ebook/product-20376941.html
            
          Transmedia Comic-Fantasy Novel: http://am-so-as.webs.com/
            
          Email: joetv@...
          Also: joetv@...
          Skype: joe.tee.vee
          Twitter: @joeteevee
            
          Imdb: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2853350/
          Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Velikovsky
          YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/joeteevee
            
          aka: JT Velikovsky
          Research Student & Filmmaker 
          Doctorate of Creative Arts - Feature Film / Screenwriting
          School of Humanities and Communication Arts
          University of Western Sydney
            
          This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. 
            
          If you have received this email in error please notify joetv@...
          This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for known viruses

           

        • joetv
          Excellent call Jeff... (I actually suggested that we continue the conversation off-list in my very *first* reply here to Mike... But... Mike has seemed quite
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 26, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Excellent call Jeff...
            (I actually suggested that we continue the conversation off-list in my very *first* reply here to Mike... But... Mike has seemed quite keen to keep it: on-list...

            Sincere apologies \ very sorry to anyone/everyone, if, this has been spammy.
            (as it goes, none of what I've said in this entire convo is my own personal opinion...
            Just: that ol' black magic, called: Science...)

            Warmly

            -----------------------
            Joe Tesla Velikovsky

            Transmedia Consultant

            StoryAlity

            Feature Film: http://www.caughtinside.com.au/

            Imdb: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2853350/

            Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Velikovsky

            YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/joeteevee

            This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify joetv@...

            This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for known viruses.

            ***************************************************************************************************************************

            ---- Jeff Turpin <jpturpin@...> wrote:
            > You guys might want to take this conversation off the listserv and into
            > interpersonal emails. I note that there is little or no feedback from other
            > members, and ultimately you might be chasing them away, which is the
            > opposite of the intent of the listserv . . . unless, of course, your
            > objective is to drive people away from the list, in which case . . . jt
            >
            >
            >
            > From: biopoet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biopoet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            > JT Velikovsky
            > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 8:11 PM
            > To: biopoet@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Fwd: Re: [biopoet] Re: On consilience and literary Darwinism
            > (weblog post) - CONT - Creativity ...Try this simple (Creativity)
            > exercise...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi JT, Mike -
            >
            >
            > Actually - good idea - I am going to try that approach, right now.
            >
            > So - Mike - you made me read that Deutsch article, which only reinforced
            > everything I've been saying - so now, you have to do this: :)
            >
            > - Pick your favourite Creative...
            >
            > ie - Your favourite novelist - or, filmmaker, or poet, or musician, or
            > scientist, or - anything.
            > Someone who was: H-Creative (ie - Historically Creative, ie - famous)
            > and not: p-Creative (not just someone who was `personally' Creative, like:
            > that random guy from Alberquerque that we've all never heard of, who: wears
            > his pants backwards, or - wrote his obscure novel that none of us have heard
            > of while looking at the pages in a mirror, or - whatever.)
            >
            > Now - check their life history - in great detail. And I do mean: in great
            > detail.
            >
            > Now check -- if it matches with: this algorithm --
            >
            > (1) They were born into: a specific Society and Culture.
            > (eg Say, New York in the 1940s. Or Hungary in the 20's, or - whatever)
            > And - born with: certain `talents' - ie - biological (see what adapted
            > biological `talents' their parents had, and whether these are the same as
            > the kid, as sometimes this is inherited, though given the ways genes
            > combine, sometimes the parents were not recognized as `talented'), and see
            > also about their: psychological, social, and cultural predispositions.
            > Given: their birth-parents.
            >
            > (2) See if: they developed a `feel for the game' (habitus) over their entire
            > lifetime
            > (eg - If they are a famous musician, then like say Mozart - were they
            > playing concertos, at age 4?)
            >
            > (3) See if they absorbed a specific creative domain
            > (eg Mozart: learning all about, music... mainly lots of reading, and lots of
            > lessons), etc
            >
            > (4) See if they internalized that domain, over about 10 years...
            > (ie 10 years of reading, going to lectures, talking to others in the field,
            > and practising and also - producing some pretty crappy stuff at first - that
            > is merely imitative and non-original,
            > ie: `derivative'. Non "creative"... ie that the Field never judged
            > "creative")
            >
            > (5) See if they did this - over an average of about 10 years.
            > (Or was it say 5 years, or 20 years? ie - 10 years is an average), Also -
            > when you check the time they spent doing it - Was it about 10,000 hours?
            > (Which is about: 10 years.)
            >
            > (6) See if - they met others in the field - and they found a `position'
            > within it
            > (eg "Oh, who - Mozart? That fairly-talented piano-kid? Sure, I know him. I
            > went to a concert he gave last week. It was pretty derivative - but he might
            > be pretty good, some day...?")
            >
            > (7) See if they acquired access to money, (Economic capital, ie see if: they
            > had a patron, or a backer), Social capital (ie In the creative arts, it's
            > "Who you know", ie who is powerful in that creative industry); and, Cultural
            > capital (basically: see if they read lots of books, and - if you're Mozart,
            > see if he went to lots of concerts, and hung out with other composers, etc
            > etc)
            >
            > (8) See if -- at some exact point in their career (*BUT ONLY AFTER
            > COMPLETING ALL THE PREVIOUS STEPS, IN THE ABOVE ORDER....*) they produced: a
            > Creative work that the Field (the audience for that Domain) judged
            > "creative". Something that made them "famous" (if only in: the field. ie Not
            > even the entire world.)
            > Note also how many failures they had before this one... I bet, that this
            > was: not their `first work' in that Domain. (eg novels, film, music,
            > science, whatever.)
            > In fact it was usually their 10th. ie the first 9 or so, flopped. Usually
            > these (all the early `failures') are *rarely reported anywhere*, so you will
            > need to research this (their past `failures', eg their novels that sold
            > about 100 copies etc), very intensely.
            >
            > (9) Note - the exact critical reviews of that `first' big creative success,
            > or the exact sales figures, or the exact box office, or exact album sales,
            > or: say, their first art exhibition where their paintings `famously' sold -
            > or, whatever is the relevant measure of the `first' creative work that they
            > are `known' for...
            >
            > (10) Note whether the creativity was (a) Commercial -- or (b) Critical...
            > -- and note, if it's actually both... (as - they very rarely coincide.
            > Usually the critical successes come much much later in their career. eg How
            > many people will a Pulitzer for their first novel? or an Oscar - in any
            > category - for their first film? What percentage of all creatives, overall?
            > - About 0.00001%)
            >
            > (11) Note when they acquired Symbolic capital: exactly on what date they
            > received an award, (eg an Oscar, or a Grammy, or a Golden Lion, or a
            > Pulitzer Prize for Literature, or a Nobel Prize for Science, or -
            > whatever-it-was).
            > Note also - who bestowed it on them. Note also - if they got any other
            > titles, honours, awards, or say membership of exclusive Creative Guilds, or
            > the Royal Society - whatever, and at what time in their creative
            > life/career.
            >
            > (12) Note if -- they then continued the cycle, back from #1, even being
            > "born again" as a creative artist, or changing disciplines, or whatever.
            > Or did they skip those earlier steps having reached #8 - and just keep
            > creating more creative works (which is fine. Once you have reached Step 8,
            > you do not need to go back to: Step 1 but you can if you want.)
            > ie - Did they continue to keep creating more creative works?
            > And - If so, was that: through Logic, or Chance, or Genius, or Zeitgeist?
            > (or even - all 4?)
            >
            > (13) Note also the exact date and place that they retired - or died - or
            > both.
            >
            >
            >
            > And Mike... just `see where that takes you', in your thinking about:
            > algorithms, and creativity...
            > ie: The above being:
            > http://storyality.wordpress.com/Creative-Practice-Theory/
            >
            >
            > Cheers
            >
            > JT
            >
            > Ps - And also - speaking of how jt mentions `jazz' below -
            > Prof. R Keith Sawyer (Explaining Creativity, 2012) has done a lot of work on
            > jazz musicians - and: their collaborative creativity.
            > ie - He has focussed on Group Creativity, in his scientific research,
            > whereas Csikszentmihalyi focusses on individual (one person) creativity.
            > ie - Read all these books, and in this order:
            > http://storyality.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/storyality-71-Consilience-is-comi
            > ng-read-all-about-it/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > -----------------------
            >
            > JT Velikovsky
            > Film/Story/Screenplay/Transmedia Analyst
            > http://storyality.wordpress.com/
            >
            > and Transmedia Writer-Director-Producer:
            > Movies, Games, TV, Theatre, Books, Comics
            >
            > Transmedia Writing Blog: http://on-writering.blogspot.com/
            >
            > Free Screenwriting TextBook:
            > http://www.lulu.com/shop/joe-velikovsky/feature-film-screenwriters-workbook/
            > ebook/product-20376941.html
            >
            > Transmedia Comic-Fantasy Novel: http://am-so-as.webs.com/
            >
            > Email: joetv@...
            > Also: joetv@...
            > Skype: joe.tee.vee
            > Twitter: @joeteevee
            >
            > Imdb: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2853350/
            > Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Velikovsky
            > YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/joeteevee
            >
            > aka: JT Velikovsky
            > Research Student & Filmmaker
            > Doctorate of Creative Arts - Feature Film / Screenwriting
            > School of Humanities and Communication Arts
            > University of Western Sydney
            >
            > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
            > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
            >
            > If you have received this email in error please notify joetv@...
            > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for
            > known viruses
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On 26/08/2013 11:03 PM, Jeff Turpin wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Mike-While this conversation has become a bit like a tennis match, rather
            > than a composite drive towards truth ;-), I like that bit about education
            > from Deutsch. I've always felt that transmitting facts, or even equations,
            > to students was only minimally productive, but taking them to the cusp of
            > "Aha!" moments, and then letting them slalom through the moment by
            > themselves, was a way of training their neurons for discovery. The world of
            > academic "facts" has gotten too large for any student to encompass, but
            > giving them fields of normativity and training them to spot the empty spaces
            > and dive in, is a bit more productive. Sort of like jazz. jt
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > -----------------------
            >
            > JT Velikovsky
            > Film/Story/Screenplay/Transmedia Analyst
            > http://storyality.wordpress.com/
            >
            > and Transmedia Writer-Director-Producer:
            > Movies, Games, TV, Theatre, Books, Comics
            >
            > Transmedia Writing Blog: http://on-writering.blogspot.com/
            >
            > Free Screenwriting TextBook:
            > http://www.lulu.com/shop/joe-velikovsky/feature-film-screenwriters-workbook/
            > ebook/product-20376941.html
            >
            > Transmedia Comic-Fantasy Novel: http://am-so-as.webs.com/
            >
            > Email: joetv@...
            > Also: joetv@...
            > Skype: joe.tee.vee
            > Twitter: @joeteevee
            >
            > Imdb: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2853350/
            > Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Velikovsky
            > YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/joeteevee
            >
            > aka: JT Velikovsky
            > Research Student & Filmmaker
            > Doctorate of Creative Arts - Feature Film / Screenwriting
            > School of Humanities and Communication Arts
            > University of Western Sydney
            >
            > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
            > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
            >
            > If you have received this email in error please notify joetv@...
            > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for
            > known viruses
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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