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Re: [biopoet] Re:Dennett

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  • sadf sadf
    Hello all, i am relatively uninformed in both the arts and sceinces, but it seems me that this list is firmly weighted towards the latter. I am an arts
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 2, 2006
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      Hello all, i am relatively uninformed in both the arts and sceinces, but it seems me that this list is firmly weighted towards the latter. I am an arts student, and it seems to me that -in terms of close reading of an artistic text- the immature feild of biopetics is reluctant to creep from the shell of its sceintific origins and engage a literary text in a truley interdisiplinary fashion, using science to illuminate a text, rather than using science to condone or justify a text or a theory as  valid in some way. It seems that many literary texts are about love and the origins of man; rich pickings, no? It seems strange that these two themes are the least examnined, but poetienally yeid the greatest fruits. Why are they so seldomi examined, is becuase its old news and i am behind the times?

      Chris

      Mike Tintner <andarot@...> wrote:
      Bill writes

      As far as I can tell, Dennett's memetics has no
      scientific basis. It's
      been
      around since Dawkins coined the term in 1976 and has
      produced no
      worthwhile
      intellectual results.

      Dennett agrees with you re results, as I wrote here
      some time ago - although he says no "countertuitive"
      results.




                 
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    • Joseph Carroll
      It seems that many literary texts are about love and the origins of man; rich pickings, no? It seems strange that these two themes are the least examnined,
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 2, 2006
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        "It seems that many literary texts are about love and the origins of man; rich pickings, no? It seems strange that these two themes are the least examnined, but poetienally yeid the greatest fruits. Why are they so seldomi examined, is becuase its old news and i am behind the times?"

                   

        ********** 

         

                    Actually "love" and family relations are among the most frequent themes in Darwinian literary criticism.  Here below are a couple of paragraphs surveying some of this literature (Adaptationist Literary Study: An Introductory Guide,” Ometeca 10 (2006): 18-31)..  If anyone wishes for more particulars on any of the citations, let me know and I'll send them along.

         

           

                    One of the most prominent topics in evolutionary psychology is mate-selection strategy.  As it happens, that is also one of the most prominent subjects or themes in literature.  Love stories, in one form or another, probably form a preponderance of all narratives.  (There is an opportunity here for a set of quantitative studies on the actual proportions of such topics in folk tales and in world literature, with an eye to differences in proportion in different cultural ecologies.)  Adaptationist literary studies that focus on mate selection range over a wide spectrum of literature.  Gottschall and his colleagues have conducted several empirical studies analyzing mate selection strategies and characteristics of male and female characters in folk tales, fairy tales, and literary texts (Carroll & Gottschall; Gottschall, 2003b, 2005; Gottschall et al., 2004; Gottschall et al., 2005; Gottschall et al., “Can Literary Study Be Scientific,” in press; Gottschall et al., “A Census of the Western Canon,” in press).  Fox has examined mating conflicts between older and younger males in various epics (1995, 2005).  Barash and Barash comment on sexual relations in Virgil’s Aeneid (2002) and on a wide array of texts across different periods and different national literatures (2005).  Thiessen and Umezawa (1998) analyze a medieval Japanese novel in sociobiological terms.  Nordlund (2005) discusses  jealousy in Othello (2002b) and romantic love in All’s Well That Ends Well and in Troilus and Cressida.  Nettle (2005) gives an adaptationist structural analysis of sexual relations in Twelfth Night.  Cooke examines sexual relations in Swan Lake and in Pushkin’s “The Snow Storm” (1995, 1999c).  Jobling (2002) identifies a chief component of the Byronic ethos as the “cad” mating strategy, and Kruger, Fisher, and Jobling use passages from Byron and Scott to test short and long-term mating strategies in a contemporary population.  Carroll has analyzed mate selection in several Victorian novels (2004, part 2 chaps. 3 & 6) and the significance of homosexuality in The Picture of Dorian Gray (2005).  Nesse (1995) examines three Victorian versions of the Guinevere myth.  Saunders (in press) discusses male reproductive strategies in a Sherwood Anderson story. Ellis, Symons, Salmon, and Whissel have analyzed the way male and female mate-selection strategies shape pornography and romance fiction (Ellis & Symons; Salmon & Symons; Whissel).  

        Mating is only one phase of reproduction, and reproduction itself is a subset of “inclusive fitness,” which includes the propagation of genes in kin—siblings and cousins, for instance—as well as in offspring.  Several adaptationist studies have examined family relations in literary texts.  Dissanayake (2001b) identifies mother-infant interaction as a source for imaginative development, and Miall and Dissanayake give a metrical, phonetic, and foregrounding analysis of “motherese.”  Storey (1996), Easterlin (2000), and Scalise Sugiyama (2001c) all critique the Freudian Oedipal conception of parent-child relations and offer alternatives from adaptationist findings.  Gottschall (2003a) uses adaptationist theories of sex-biased infanticide to illuminate the sexual demographics in Homer’s narratives.  Boyd (1999, 2005a), Nettle (2005b), and Scalise Sugiyama (2003) have all discussed the disrupted family relations in Hamlet.  Boyd examines the interactions between power and kinship in Shakespeare’s Titus Andronicus (“Kind and Unkindness,” in press).  Headlam Wells comments on family relations in several Shakespeare plays, including King Lear.  Carroll discusses disrupted childhood development in the novels of Dickens (2004, part 1 chap. 6), and Saunders (2005) in Wharton’s novel The Children. 

      • William Benzon
        ... One might start with Patrick Hogan¹s The Mind and It¹s Stories. Hogan has no quantitative methodology but has read widely in many literatures, including
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 2, 2006
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          Re: [biopoet] Re:Dennett


          on 3/2/06 7:21 AM, Joseph Carroll at jcarroll@... wrote:

          "It seems that many literary texts are about love and the origins of man; rich pickings, no? It seems strange that these two themes are the least examnined, but poetienally yeid the greatest fruits. Why are they so seldomi examined, is becuase its old news and i am behind the times?"

                      
          **********  
           
                      Actually "love" and family relations are among the most frequent themes in Darwinian literary criticism.  Here below are a couple of paragraphs surveying some of this literature (
          Adaptationist Literary Study: An Introductory Guide,” Ometeca 10 (2006): 18-31)..  If anyone wishes for more particulars on any of the citations, let me know and I'll send them along.
           
              
                      One of the most prominent topics in evolutionary psychology is mate-selection strategy.  As it happens, that is also one of the most prominent subjects or themes in literature.  Love stories, in one form or another, probably form a preponderance of all narratives.  (There is an opportunity here for a set of quantitative studies on the actual proportions of such topics in folk tales and in world literature, with an eye to differences in proportion in different cultural ecologies.)  

          One might start with Patrick Hogan’s The Mind and It’s Stories. Hogan has no quantitative methodology but has read widely in many literatures, including collections of oral tales, and finds that love stories are the most frequent type of story. He even hazards informal estimates of percentage, but those cannot be taken seriously, nor do I think he intends us to.

          Bill B
          --

          William L. Benzon
          708 Jersey Avenue, Apt. 2A
          Jersey City, NJ 07302
          201 217-1010

          "You won't get a wild heroic ride to heaven on pretty little sounds."--George Ives

          Mind-Culture Coevolution: http://asweknowit.ca/evcult/

        • sadf sadf
          Thanks very much for the info; it seems that UK libaries have a lot of catching up to do in this field. I will try and do my research before sounding of
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 2, 2006
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            Thanks very much for the info; it seems that UK libaries have a lot of catching up to do in this field. I will try and do my research before sounding of again.

            Chris

            William Benzon <bbenzon@...> wrote:
            Re: [biopoet] Re:Dennett


            on 3/2/06 7:21 AM, Joseph Carroll at jcarroll@... wrote:

            "It seems that many literary texts are about love and the origins of man; rich pickings, no? It seems strange that these two themes are the least examnined, but poetienally yeid the greatest fruits. Why are they so seldomi examined, is becuase its old news and i am behind the times?"

                        
            **********  
             
                        Actually "love" and family relations are among the most frequent themes in Darwinian literary criticism.  Here below are a couple of paragraphs surveying some of this literature (
            Adaptationist Literary Study: An Introductory Guide,” Ometeca 10 (2006): 18-31)..  If anyone wishes for more particulars on any of the citations, let me know and I'll send them along.
             
                
                        One of the most prominent topics in evolutionary psychology is mate-selection strategy.  As it happens, that is also one of the most prominent subjects or themes in literature.  Love stories, in one form or another, probably form a preponderance of all narratives.  (There is an opportunity here for a set of quantitative studies on the actual proportions of such topics in folk tales and in world literature, with an eye to differences in proportion in different cultural ecologies.)  

            One might start with Patrick Hogan’s The Mind and It’s Stories. Hogan has no quantitative methodology but has read widely in many literatures, including collections of oral tales, and finds that love stories are the most frequent type of story. He even hazards informal estimates of percentage, but those cannot be taken seriously, nor do I think he intends us to.

            Bill B
            --

            William L. Benzon
            708 Jersey Avenue, Apt. 2A
            Jersey City, NJ 07302
            201 217-1010

            "You won't get a wild heroic ride to heaven on pretty little sounds."--George Ives

            Mind-Culture Coevolution: http://asweknowit.ca/evcult/



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          • Tom Dolack
            If it makes you feel any better, Chris (or should I just call you homerow ?) I agree with your statement in general that biopoetic close reading still needs
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 2, 2006
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              Re: [biopoet] Re:Dennett

              If it makes you feel any better, Chris (or should I just call you “homerow”?) I agree with your statement in general that biopoetic close reading still needs to catch up to the more theoretical approaches, but the last year or two--which JC’s post points out--has done much to begin to fill this gap.

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: biopoet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biopoet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sadf sadf
              Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 6:56 AM
              To: biopoet@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [biopoet] Re:Dennett - apology

               

              Thanks very much for the info; it seems that UK libaries have a lot of catching up to do in this field. I will try and do my research before sounding of again.

              Chris

              William Benzon <bbenzon@...> wrote:




              on 3/2/06 7:21 AM, Joseph Carroll at jcarroll@... wrote:


              "It seems that many literary texts are about love and the origins of man; rich pickings, no? It seems strange that these two themes are the least examnined, but poetienally yeid the greatest fruits. Why are they so seldomi examined, is becuase its old news and i am behind the times?"

                          
              **********  
               
                          Actually "love" and family relations are among the most frequent themes in Darwinian literary criticism.  Here below are a couple of paragraphs surveying some of this literature (
              Adaptationist Literary Study: An Introductory Guide,” Ometeca 10 (2006): 18-31)..  If anyone wishes for more particulars on any of the citations, let me know and I'll send them along.
               
                  
                          One of the most prominent topics in evolutionary psychology is mate-selection strategy.  As it happens, that is also one of the most prominent subjects or themes in literature.  Love stories, in one form or another, probably form a preponderance of all narratives.  (There is an opportunity here for a set of quantitative studies on the actual proportions of such topics in folk tales and in world literature, with an eye to differences in proportion in different cultural ecologies.)  


              One might start with Patrick Hogan’s The Mind and It’s Stories. Hogan has no quantitative methodology but has read widely in many literatures, including collections of oral tales, and finds that love stories are the most frequent type of story. He even hazards informal estimates of percentage, but those cannot be taken seriously, nor do I think he intends us to.

              Bill B
              --

              William L. Benzon
              708 Jersey Avenue, Apt. 2A
              Jersey City, NJ 07302
              201 217-1010

              "You won't get a wild heroic ride to heaven on pretty little sounds."--George Ives

              Mind-Culture Coevolution: http://asweknowit.ca/evcult/


               


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