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Re: [biochar] using powerful components of 'terra preta' in making dark soils

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  • Folke Günther
    Whar was it in the fish emulsion? How is it made? Is the purpose of the emulsioin to be a fertilizer? FG 2008/10/1 palmtreepathos
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 1, 2008
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      Whar was it in the fish emulsion? How is it made? Is the purpose of the emulsioin to  be a fertilizer?
      FG




      --
      ----------------------------------------
      Folke Günther
      Kollegievägen 19
      224 73 Lund
      Sweden
      Phone: +46 (0)46 141429
      Cell: +46 (0)709 710306
      Skype:folkegun
      URL: http://www.holon.se/folke
      BLOG: http://folkegunther.blogspot.com/
    • kofi thompson
      Good to speak to you, earlier  today, Folk. War was it in the fish emulsion? How is it made? Is the purpose of the emulsioin to  be a fertilizer? Do keep
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 1, 2008
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        Good to speak to you, earlier  today, Folk. "War was it in the fish emulsion? How is it made? Is the purpose of the emulsioin to  be a fertilizer?"
        Do keep us posted - if you do follow up and carry out any experiments.
         
        Stay blessed!
         
        Kofi

        --- On Wed, 1/10/08, Folke Günther <folkeg@...> wrote:
        From: Folke Günther <folkeg@...>
        Subject: Re: [biochar] using powerful components of 'terra preta' in making dark soils
        To: biochar@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, 1 October, 2008, 9:27 AM

        Whar was it in the fish emulsion? How is it made? Is the purpose of the emulsioin to  be a fertilizer?
        FG




        --
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- -
        Folke Günther
        Kollegievägen 19
        224 73 Lund
        Sweden
        Phone: +46 (0)46 141429
        Cell: +46 (0)709 710306
        Skype:folkegun
        URL: http://www.holon. se/folke
        BLOG: http://folkegunther .blogspot. com/

      • Mark Ludlow
        Fish, autolyzed or enzymatically digested. Most bone removed. (Excellent source of calcium phosphate!) Phosphoric acid used as acidulent for micro-stability as
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 1, 2008
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          Fish, autolyzed or enzymatically digested. Most bone removed. (Excellent source of calcium phosphate!) Phosphoric acid used as acidulent for micro-stability as concentrate. 4-1-0. Rich in micronutrients; slow release. Drip or foliar. Not concentrated fishmeal stickwater which is high in chlorides! Listed as “soil amendment”.

          Mark

           

          From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Folke Günther
          Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:28 AM
          To: biochar@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [biochar] using powerful components of 'terra preta' in making dark soils

           

          Whar was it in the fish emulsion? How is it made? Is the purpose of the emulsioin to  be a fertilizer?
          FG




          --
          ----------------------------------------
          Folke Günther
          Kollegievägen 19
          224 73 Lund
          Sweden
          Phone: +46 (0)46 141429
          Cell: +46 (0)709 710306
          Skype:folkegun
          URL: http://www.holon.se/folke
          BLOG: http://folkegunther.blogspot.com/

        • Folke Günther
          What is the name of the stuff? FG 2008/10/1 Mark Ludlow ... -- ... Folke Günther Kollegievägen 19 224 73 Lund Sweden Phone: +46 (0)46
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 1, 2008
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            What is the name of the stuff?
            FG

            2008/10/1 Mark Ludlow <mark@...>

            Fish, autolyzed or enzymatically digested. Most bone removed. (Excellent source of calcium phosphate!) Phosphoric acid used as acidulent for micro-stability as concentrate. 4-1-0. Rich in micronutrients; slow release. Drip or foliar. Not concentrated fishmeal stickwater which is high in chlorides! Listed as "soil amendment".

            Mark

             

            From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Folke Günther
            Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:28 AM
            To: biochar@yahoogroups.com


            Subject: Re: [biochar] using powerful components of 'terra preta' in making dark soils

             

            Whar was it in the fish emulsion? How is it made? Is the purpose of the emulsioin to  be a fertilizer?
            FG




            --
            ----------------------------------------
            Folke Günther
            Kollegievägen 19
            224 73 Lund
            Sweden
            Phone: +46 (0)46 141429
            Cell: +46 (0)709 710306
            Skype:folkegun
            URL: http://www.holon.se/folke
            BLOG: http://folkegunther.blogspot.com/




            --
            ----------------------------------------
            Folke Günther
            Kollegievägen 19
            224 73 Lund
            Sweden
            Phone: +46 (0)46 141429
            Cell: +46 (0)709 710306
            Skype:folkegun
            URL: http://www.holon.se/folke
            BLOG: http://folkegunther.blogspot.com/
          • Mark Ludlow
            Fish Protein Hydrolysate From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Folke Günther Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:45 AM
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 1, 2008
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              Fish Protein Hydrolysate

               

              From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Folke Günther
              Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:45 AM
              To: biochar@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [biochar] using powerful components of 'terra preta' in making dark soils

               

              What is the name of the stuff?
              FG

              2008/10/1 Mark Ludlow <mark@...>

              Fish, autolyzed or enzymatically digested. Most bone removed. (Excellent source of calcium phosphate!) Phosphoric acid used as acidulent for micro-stability as concentrate. 4-1-0. Rich in micronutrients; slow release. Drip or foliar. Not concentrated fishmeal stickwater which is high in chlorides! Listed as "soil amendment".

              Mark

               

              From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Folke Günther
              Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:28 AM
              To: biochar@yahoogroups.com


              Subject: Re: [biochar] using powerful components of 'terra preta' in making dark soils

               

              Whar was it in the fish emulsion? How is it made? Is the purpose of the emulsioin to  be a fertilizer?
              FG




              --
              ----------------------------------------
              Folke Günther
              Kollegievägen 19
              224 73 Lund
              Sweden
              Phone: +46 (0)46 141429
              Cell: +46 (0)709 710306
              Skype:folkegun
              URL: http://www.holon.se/folke
              BLOG: http://folkegunther.blogspot.com/




              --
              ----------------------------------------
              Folke Günther
              Kollegievägen 19
              224 73 Lund
              Sweden
              Phone: +46 (0)46 141429
              Cell: +46 (0)709 710306
              Skype:folkegun
              URL: http://www.holon.se/folke
              BLOG: http://folkegunther.blogspot.com/

            • palmtreepathos
              What is the name of the stuff? FG I feel especially good about using this emulsion sold by Schafer Fisheries Inc. [ http://www.schaferfish.com/ ] It is made
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 1, 2008
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                "What is the name of the stuff?"
                FG
                I feel especially good about using this emulsion sold by Schafer
                Fisheries Inc. [ http://www.schaferfish.com/ ] It is made from
                another ecological disaster in the making. The release of the Bighead
                and Grass Carp from ponds into the Mississpi River and its tributaries
                in the flood of 1993. [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS7zkTnQVaM ]
                I noticed the AU gardener Peter Cundall used a Carp fertilizer in his
                char soil mix as well. I imagine most areas have a similar product
                available that uses fish waste and could be used as a potent magnifier
                of char's potential.
              • palmtreepathos
                Further reading up on my product shows the need to correct my terminology Fish Fertilizer NOT emulsion. Schafer s Organic Fish Fertilizer (SOFF) is
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 1, 2008
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                  Further reading up on my product shows the need to correct my
                  terminology "Fish Fertilizer" NOT emulsion.

                  "Schafer's Organic Fish Fertilizer (SOFF) is committed to supplying an
                  environmentally friendly alternative to common day toxic fertilizers.

                  SOFF is a cold process; it naturally maintains the hormones, vitamins,
                  enzymes, amino acids and minerals. Our product is high in oil content,
                  sulfur and calcium. Our quality control is such that each batch is
                  monitored and kept track of and is periodically tested for heavy
                  metals.

                  SOFF is not an emulsion process like our competitors; Emulsion means
                  extreme heat has been added in the process and various things have been
                  removed from the product. Schafer's use a process called hydrolysate in
                  which the product is broken down more slowly to create the highest
                  quality natural fertilizer on the market today."
                • Mark Ludlow
                  There are a number of places where carp can be harvested with the blessing of local fish and game regulators--reservoirs on the Snake River in Idaho, for
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 1, 2008
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                    There are a number of places where carp can be harvested with the blessing of local fish and game regulators--reservoirs on the Snake River in Idaho, for instance. The carp are usually purse-seined to allow for release of incidental game fish species. Nothing seems to energize soil as well as fish; the Amazonians surely knew this. Phosphorus concentration in soil is a certain marker for civilization, even if all other evidence has passed.

                    Make your own digests: Chop up your carcasses or trash fish; toss in a poly barrel; add enough acid to keep things from rotting and let the endogenous enzymes take over. The acid will dissolve most of the bone--the rest can be screened-out if need be. The legend says Squanto knew about fish and helped the Pilgrims survive.

                    Mark

                     

                    From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of palmtreepathos
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:35 AM
                    To: biochar@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [biochar] Re: using powerful components of 'terra preta' in making dark soils

                     

                    "What is the name of the stuff?"
                    FG
                    I feel especially good about using this emulsion sold by Schafer
                    Fisheries Inc. [ http://www.schaferfish.com/ ] It is made from
                    another ecological disaster in the making. The release of the Bighead
                    and Grass Carp from ponds into the Mississpi River and its tributaries
                    in the flood of 1993. [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS7zkTnQVaM ]
                    I noticed the AU gardener Peter Cundall used a Carp fertilizer in his
                    char soil mix as well. I imagine most areas have a similar product
                    available that uses fish waste and could be used as a potent magnifier
                    of char's potential.

                  • David Yarrow
                    you re on the right track. fish as fertilizer is an ancient tradition in many areas of earth, not just native america. and not just the waste fish; the water
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 1, 2008
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                      you're on the right track.  fish as fertilizer is an ancient tradition in many areas of earth, not just native america.  and not just the waste fish; the water fish live in has a special fertilizing quality that is more than just chemical nutrients.
                       
                      at any rate, indigenous cultures commonly consumed mostly fish and small game, and would have disposed of their bones, fins and other remains in the same pile as their other wastes and charcoal. 
                       
                      bones are a concentrated source of Ca and P, both commonly are critical, limiting major minerals in the soil food web.  a biologically active and intelligent soil community will snap up those two elements and hold them in the web, preventing their loss, and accumulating an anomalous concentration of them.
                       
                      and so we see again terra preta isn't just charcoal, but a variety of ingredients blended in a particular process that together delivered a complete package of soil fertility -- including the biological intelligence to operate, maintain and sustain that abundance.
                       
                      for a green & peaceful planet,
                      David Yarrow
                      Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
                      44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061
                      www.championtrees.org
                      www.OnondagaLakePeaceFestival.org
                      www.farmandfood.org
                      www.SeaAgri.com
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:34 PM
                      Subject: [biochar] Re: using powerful components of 'terra preta' in making dark soils

                      "What is the name of the stuff?"
                      FG
                      I feel especially good about using this emulsion sold by Schafer
                      Fisheries Inc. [ http://www.schaferf ish.com/ ] It is made from
                      another ecological disaster in the making. The release of the Bighead
                      and Grass Carp from ponds into the Mississpi River and its tributaries
                      in the flood of 1993. [ http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=yS7zkTnQVaM ]
                      I noticed the AU gardener Peter Cundall used a Carp fertilizer in his
                      char soil mix as well. I imagine most areas have a similar product
                      available that uses fish waste and could be used as a potent magnifier
                      of char's potential.

                    • mmbtupr@AOL.COM
                      from Lewis L. Smith ... And so once again, we see that the phrase terra preta is really a shorthand for a family of crop management systems that
                      Message 10 of 14 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                  from   Lewis L. Smith


                        In a message dated 10/1/08 10:16:59 PM,
                        dyarrow@... writes:

                        ... and so we see again terra preta isn't just charcoal, but a variety of ingredients blended in a particular process that together delivered a complete package of soil fertility -- including the biological intelligence to operate, maintain and sustain that abundance.

                        And so once again, we see that the phrase "terra preta" is really a shorthand for a family of crop management systems that incorporate biochar. Which for me at least, implies that we ought to do a sample survey of the many abandoned sites in the Amazon watershed and try to figure out the various, albeit related, systems that appear to have been in use in ancient times.

                        [ Forgive me for "beating the same drum" from time to time, but when there are so many relics of natural experiments lying around, it seems rather obvious that one should take a gander at some of them. ]

                        Cordially..  ### 






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                      • Folke Günther
                        2008/10/2 Mark Ludlow ... -- ... Folke Günther Kollegievägen 19 224 73 Lund Sweden Phone: +46 (0)46 141429 Cell: +46 (0)709 710306
                        Message 11 of 14 , Oct 2, 2008
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                          2008/10/2 Mark Ludlow <mark@...>

                          There are a number of places where carp can be harvested with the blessing of local fish and game regulators--reservoirs on the Snake River in Idaho, for instance. The carp are usually purse-seined to allow for release of incidental game fish species. Nothing seems to energize soil as well as fish; the Amazonians surely knew this. Phosphorus concentration in soil is a certain marker for civilization, even if all other evidence has passed.

                          Sounds loke our Swedish 'surströmming', eaten traditionally in the autumn

                           
                           

                          Make your own digests: Chop up your carcasses or trash fish; toss in a poly barrel; add enough acid to keep things from rotting and let the endogenous enzymes take over. The acid will dissolve most of the bone--the rest can be screened-out if need be. The legend says Squanto knew about fish and helped the Pilgrims survive.

                          Mark

                           

                          From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of palmtreepathos
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:35 AM
                          To: biochar@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [biochar] Re: using powerful components of 'terra preta' in making dark soils

                           

                          "What is the name of the stuff?"
                          FG
                          I feel especially good about using this emulsion sold by Schafer
                          Fisheries Inc. [ http://www.schaferfish.com/ ] It is made from
                          another ecological disaster in the making. The release of the Bighead
                          and Grass Carp from ponds into the Mississpi River and its tributaries
                          in the flood of 1993. [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS7zkTnQVaM ]
                          I noticed the AU gardener Peter Cundall used a Carp fertilizer in his
                          char soil mix as well. I imagine most areas have a similar product
                          available that uses fish waste and could be used as a potent magnifier
                          of char's potential.




                          --
                          ----------------------------------------
                          Folke Günther
                          Kollegievägen 19
                          224 73 Lund
                          Sweden
                          Phone: +46 (0)46 141429
                          Cell: +46 (0)709 710306
                          Skype:folkegun
                          URL: http://www.holon.se/folke
                          BLOG: http://folkegunther.blogspot.com/
                        • James Thomas
                          After looking at this video and the related ones on using archery to harvest the various types of carp I shall in fact be attempting to harvest some carp with
                          Message 12 of 14 , Oct 3, 2008
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                            After looking at this video and the related ones on using archery to
                            harvest the various types of carp I shall in fact be attempting to
                            harvest some carp with my archery gear. They are certainly in no short
                            supply. However I keep coming up with a quandary. I have eaten carp and
                            when properly prepared they are quite tasty. How is it that a valuable
                            source of protein in some parts of the world is considered as just
                            "trash fish" in other parts of the world and something to be destroyed
                            unmercifully?

                            I keep thinking about hungry children who can benefit from just a little
                            supplemental high quality protein and here we are discussing burying
                            such a protein source to enrich soil. With oceans being over harvested
                            and many fish stocks in decline, it seems strange that the less
                            glamorous species notwithstanding these are fresh water species and
                            introduced "alien" species at that , but they are still considered as
                            garbage. I find that state of affairs very troubling. As the saying
                            states: "What's wrong with this picture?"

                            For myself I will in fact eat the flesh of the carp I harvest locally,
                            or any other fish for that matter, but feed the fish skin, scales,
                            entrails etc. to the chickens who will poop out what they don't use as a
                            great fertilizer, but the chicken poop fertilizer doesn't come in a jug
                            from far away. I have a bit of difficulty in advocating jugs of fish
                            emulsion as a part of sustainable agriculture, if such jugs came from
                            far away from their point of final use. Even the use of jugs which use
                            requires petroleum to transport and energy to produce causes me some
                            concern. On the other hand, I can shoot carp with my bow just a couple
                            of miles away from my home or office, or if I am a skillful angler,
                            harvest them with angling gear, then carry them home to use. My son is
                            able to harvest fish right outside his doorstep. It seems to me more
                            sensible that if natural waters are not nearby to where you live or
                            work, to have sustainable aquaculture facilities omnipresent, such as in
                            the waste water purification recycling ponds Mr. Gunther advocates.
                            Using fish scraps from such LOCAL facilities would most likely have a
                            much lower carbon footprint than a jug of fish emulsion which originated
                            in the United States Midwest region and traversed halfway around the
                            globe to the final point of use.

                            We need to consider infrastructure costs, transportation costs, fuel
                            consumption and manufacturing costs when we discuss sustainability. I
                            simply am not comfortable with advocating the use of even an _organic
                            _fertilizer which was transported from a long distance away from the
                            final point of use. Just how could long distance transportation of
                            fertilizer of any type be considered as sustainable? Consider the carbon
                            footprint. Now does anyone feel guilty about using a jug or two of fish
                            emulsion? Feeling guilty is not my intent, but just to cause us to think
                            about what we do and what we advocate.

                            That consideration of transportation distance was likely one reason the
                            Amazon Indians lived close to the river; the fisheries were right there,
                            outside their door. Therefore, use of the fish scraps was relatively
                            simple with regard to transport; toss the fish scraps in a clay pot,
                            then carry them out, along with the charcoal and any other organic
                            refuse available, to the closest terra preta site. Conversely, isn't it
                            hypocritical of us to discuss global warming and carbon sequestration
                            while discussing importing or exporting _anything _over long distances
                            in virtually the same breath?

                            Sometimes we are forced to deal with long distance transportation: I,
                            for example, purchased my scythe from a company which is located on the
                            other side of the United States. The scythe blade in turn was
                            manufactured and imported from Austria. That situation is not unusual,
                            but simply a statement on our current societal condition. Hardly anyone
                            in my local area uses a scythe, I am in fact, considered as a bit of
                            an oddball because I choose to use one instead of a tractor or a gas
                            guzzling weed eater/ string trimmer. ( I do however chuckle to myself
                            when I am cutting hay with my scythe, when I think that the current hay
                            price of $235.00 per ton is directly tied to fuel costs. Given ideal
                            conditions I could harvest ten tons of hay or more from a fertile acre.
                            An acre is relatively easy to handle with a good scythe) So there is
                            not enough business to support a local scythe smith YET. As fuel prices
                            continue to rise however, I may eventually be able to locate a scythe
                            smith locally, because transportation costs simply don't allow import of
                            tools from afar. That is assuming of course that the traditional
                            knowledge of the scythe smith trade is not lost because there are no
                            apprentices learning the trade. What we are in essence being forced to
                            examine, albeit unwillingly, is to return to a sense of community. Local
                            people interacting to help meet each other's needs. That is the essence
                            of sustainability.
                          • palmtreepathos
                            James thanks for weighing in on this topic. How is it that a valuable source of protein in some parts of the world is considered as just trash fish in
                            Message 13 of 14 , Oct 3, 2008
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                              James thanks for weighing in on this topic.

                              "How is it that a valuable source of protein in some parts of the
                              world is considered as just "trash fish" in other parts of the world
                              and something to be destroyed unmercifully? " JT

                              Many people in this area do not live by these waters. These waters
                              cut through vast areas of farmland in the middle of a well endowed
                              country. As is obvious from the videos on the carp, they have been
                              accidentally released into a different ecological system and they are
                              totally wiping out the natural fish and even the habitat that they
                              need to live.

                              The fish have become an endangerment to the people who travel the
                              river and something has to be done about it, this above and beyond
                              the fact that it is ruining the river for the native fish.
                              So "destroyed unmercifully" might be a tad harsh. Most people have no
                              idea of how they could help be a solution for it. That is why I also
                              included the link and the info on using the fish in the garden.
                              Maybe those local CAN use this knowledge to help or at least help
                              themselves by learning to use the fertilizer.

                              Most of the flesh in these fish is not suitable for food, having
                              too many fine bones. So the fish of a certain size are used for the
                              fillets/minced meat that are edible and the rest, rather that
                              becoming waste, become fertilizer.

                              Yes, those who are well fed and have eaten the better fish that
                              used to be in this river may look on these as "trash", we cannot
                              control what people think or why they think it, trying to is totally
                              unproductive.

                              I am simply grateful that an old lady urban farmer(me!)can use what
                              is a waste product on my garden and it benefits the quality of my
                              veggies. I also am doing experiments in making "dark soils" and this
                              is proving to be an important part of it. Though I live in Geogia, I
                              have family in the area where my fertilizer came from. No special
                              trip or wasted gas to get there other than that used for family unity
                              when we can afford it.

                              "I keep thinking about hungry children who can benefit from just a
                              little supplemental high quality protein and here we are discussing
                              burying such a protein source to enrich soil" JT

                              I assume most everyone in this forum "IS" looking for a better way
                              to feed those hungry children, I know I am. I offered my video as a
                              small "proof" that this component of 'terra preta' is viable and
                              efficatious on poor soils or as in mine, high intensity gardens in a
                              small area that must produce much food.

                              "For myself I will in fact eat the flesh of the carp I harvest
                              locally" JT

                              I would certainly fish myself if I could. Did you see those
                              things? Some of them are huge! Alas, the day of most young men
                              fishing and feeding a family is a foreign concept in our land. In
                              fact, if grocery stores were to close tomorrow most would starve to
                              death from lack of the knowledge how to find or produce food. I am
                              learning to even eat the weeds around here. Though there are very few
                              of them due to the drought!

                              "I find that state of affairs very troubling. As the saying
                              states: "What's wrong with this picture?" JT

                              If only "all" people would have this view JT!! Have a great day!
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