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Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim

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  • David Opderbeck
    I came across the Emim today in Deut. 2:10 and the Rephaim in 2:20, both of which are compared to the Anakim. Could someone recommend some sources that
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 29, 2008
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      I came across the Emim today in Deut. 2:10 and the Rephaim in 2:20, both of
      which are compared to the Anakim. Could someone recommend some sources that
      discuss any other ANE paralells to these giants, and/or later Jewish or
      Christian understanding of who they were? A speculation: is it possible
      that such references could represent some kind of cultural memory of
      encounters with non homo sapiens sapiens -- e.g., neanderthals?


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jack Kilmon
      ... From: David Opderbeck To: Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:10 AM Subject: [biblicalist] Anakim,
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 29, 2008
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@...>
        To: <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:10 AM
        Subject: [biblicalist] Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim


        >I came across the Emim today in Deut. 2:10 and the Rephaim in 2:20, both of
        > which are compared to the Anakim. Could someone recommend some sources
        > that
        > discuss any other ANE paralells to these giants, and/or later Jewish or
        > Christian understanding of who they were? A speculation: is it possible
        > that such references could represent some kind of cultural memory of
        > encounters with non homo sapiens sapiens -- e.g., neanderthals?


        The last Neandertals died out at the end of the Iberian Peninsula around
        30,000 years ago and probably about 40,000 years ago in the Middle East. H.
        neandertalensis was also shorter (but stockier) than AMH.

        These various -ims are either literary inventions or embellished accounts
        from the Bronze Age conflicts in the ANE...IMO

        Jack
      • David Opderbeck
        Right -- but the Neanderthals coexisted for a time with AMH and perhaps interbred and/or fought with them (us), though the genetic and anthropological evidence
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 29, 2008
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          Right -- but the Neanderthals coexisted for a time with AMH and perhaps
          interbred and/or fought with them (us), though the genetic and
          anthropological evidence on this is hotly contested. That's why I said
          something about a "cultural memory" of strange and fierce uber-people.
          Anyway, don't consider that a suggested theory. I'm interested to know how
          they've been understood in the past and if there are any related ANE stories
          / legends.

          On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:

          > The last Neandertals died out at the end of the Iberian Peninsula
          > around
          > 30,000 years ago and probably about 40,000 years ago in the Middle East.
          > H.
          > neandertalensis was also shorter (but stockier) than AMH.
          >
          > These various -ims are either literary inventions or embellished accounts
          > from the Bronze Age conflicts in the ANE...IMO
          >
          > Jack
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jack Kilmon
          It does suggest an interesting topic. How long does a cultural memory survive in oral tradition? I can understand such events as the Thera explosion ~1600
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 29, 2008
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            It does suggest an interesting topic. How long does a "cultural memory"
            survive in oral tradition? I can understand such events as the Thera
            explosion ~1600 BCE as potentially responsible for phenomena in the OT and
            perhaps even the neolithic Black Sea overflow for the Great Floods of
            Gilgamesh and Genesis (7,000 ybp) but stories passed down from the
            paleolithic? Think its possible?

            Jack


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@...>
            To: <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 3:01 PM
            Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim


            > Right -- but the Neanderthals coexisted for a time with AMH and perhaps
            > interbred and/or fought with them (us), though the genetic and
            > anthropological evidence on this is hotly contested. That's why I said
            > something about a "cultural memory" of strange and fierce uber-people.
            > Anyway, don't consider that a suggested theory. I'm interested to know
            > how
            > they've been understood in the past and if there are any related ANE
            > stories
            > / legends.
            >
            > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            >> The last Neandertals died out at the end of the Iberian Peninsula
            >> around
            >> 30,000 years ago and probably about 40,000 years ago in the Middle East.
            >> H.
            >> neandertalensis was also shorter (but stockier) than AMH.
            >>
            >> These various -ims are either literary inventions or embellished accounts
            >> from the Bronze Age conflicts in the ANE...IMO
            >>
            >> Jack
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Yigal Levin
            Could Iron Age people have been familiar with fosils of pre- Homo Sapiens and realized that they were not quite like us ? Yigal Levin ... From: Jack Kilmon
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 29, 2008
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              Could Iron Age people have been familiar with fosils of pre- Homo Sapiens and realized that they were not quite "like us"?

              Yigal Levin


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Jack Kilmon
              To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:20 PM
              Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim


              It does suggest an interesting topic. How long does a "cultural memory"
              survive in oral tradition? I can understand such events as the Thera
              explosion ~1600 BCE as potentially responsible for phenomena in the OT and
              perhaps even the neolithic Black Sea overflow for the Great Floods of
              Gilgamesh and Genesis (7,000 ybp) but stories passed down from the
              paleolithic? Think its possible?

              Jack

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@...>
              To: <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 3:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim

              > Right -- but the Neanderthals coexisted for a time with AMH and perhaps
              > interbred and/or fought with them (us), though the genetic and
              > anthropological evidence on this is hotly contested. That's why I said
              > something about a "cultural memory" of strange and fierce uber-people.
              > Anyway, don't consider that a suggested theory. I'm interested to know
              > how
              > they've been understood in the past and if there are any related ANE
              > stories
              > / legends.
              >
              > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
              > wrote:
              >
              >> The last Neandertals died out at the end of the Iberian Peninsula
              >> around
              >> 30,000 years ago and probably about 40,000 years ago in the Middle East.
              >> H.
              >> neandertalensis was also shorter (but stockier) than AMH.
              >>
              >> These various -ims are either literary inventions or embellished accounts
              >> from the Bronze Age conflicts in the ANE...IMO
              >>
              >> Jack
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >






              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


              No virus found in this incoming message.
              Checked by AVG.
              Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 27/04/2008 09:39


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Opderbeck
              Not my area of expertise, but evolutionary psychology suggests this might be so, I think. I remember a couple of years ago crawling around a neolithic wedge
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 29, 2008
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                Not my area of expertise, but evolutionary psychology suggests this might be
                so, I think. I remember a couple of years ago crawling around a neolithic
                wedge tomb in Ireland (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dopderbeck/327584658/)
                from around 2500 BCE, seeing where it was sited looking over a valley, and
                later looking at the bog bodies and neolithic gold artifacts in the Dublin
                museum, and wondering at the extensive and rich culture those people had.
                They had cultural memories as sophisticated as ours, probably; and why not
                those before them, and so on, including maybe memories of horrifying
                encounters with man-beasts?

                On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:

                > It does suggest an interesting topic. How long does a "cultural memory"
                > survive in oral tradition? I can understand such events as the Thera
                > explosion ~1600 BCE as potentially responsible for phenomena in the OT and
                >
                > perhaps even the neolithic Black Sea overflow for the Great Floods of
                > Gilgamesh and Genesis (7,000 ybp) but stories passed down from the
                > paleolithic? Think its possible?
                >
                > Jack
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@... <dopderbeck%40gmail.com>>
                > To: <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com <biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com>>
                > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 3:01 PM
                > Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim
                >
                > > Right -- but the Neanderthals coexisted for a time with AMH and perhaps
                > > interbred and/or fought with them (us), though the genetic and
                > > anthropological evidence on this is hotly contested. That's why I said
                > > something about a "cultural memory" of strange and fierce uber-people.
                > > Anyway, don't consider that a suggested theory. I'm interested to know
                > > how
                > > they've been understood in the past and if there are any related ANE
                > > stories
                > > / legends.
                > >
                > > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...<jkilmon%40historian.net>>
                >
                > > wrote:
                > >
                > >> The last Neandertals died out at the end of the Iberian Peninsula
                > >> around
                > >> 30,000 years ago and probably about 40,000 years ago in the Middle
                > East.
                > >> H.
                > >> neandertalensis was also shorter (but stockier) than AMH.
                > >>
                > >> These various -ims are either literary inventions or embellished
                > accounts
                > >> from the Bronze Age conflicts in the ANE...IMO
                > >>
                > >> Jack
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >



                --
                David W. Opderbeck
                Associate Professor of Law
                Seton Hall University Law School
                Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Peter Kirk
                ... More precisely, the last surviving evidence for Neanderthals is from this period. But what evidence would there be if some small groups of nomadic
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 29, 2008
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                  On 29/04/2008 20:46, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                  > ...
                  > The last Neandertals died out at the end of the Iberian Peninsula around
                  > 30,000 years ago and probably about 40,000 years ago in the Middle East. H.
                  > neandertalensis was also shorter (but stockier) than AMH.
                  >
                  >
                  More precisely, the last surviving evidence for Neanderthals is from
                  this period. But what evidence would there be if some small groups of
                  nomadic Neanderthals lived on until much more recently in deserts of
                  Arabia or Sinai? Bones would not survive. Charactertistic Neanderthal
                  tools might, but these late Neanderthals might have learned to make or
                  acquire the same tools as modern humans.

                  But a more probable hypothesis is that these "giants" were a racially
                  distinct extra tall tribe, perhaps related to the Nilotic peoples of
                  modern Sudan and nearby countries. The stories of Goliath and other
                  giants from David's time suggest that some of this tribe survived until
                  around 1000 BC.

                  --
                  Peter Kirk
                  E-mail: peter@...
                  Blog: http://www.qaya.org/blog/
                  Website: http://www.qaya.org/
                • Jack Kilmon
                  It is more likely that Bronze age and Iron age people found fossils of prehistoric animals which resulted in stories of giants and dragons. Jack ... From:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 29, 2008
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                    It is more likely that Bronze age and Iron age people found fossils of
                    prehistoric animals which resulted in stories of giants and dragons.

                    Jack


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1@...>
                    To: <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 3:30 PM
                    Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim


                    > Could Iron Age people have been familiar with fosils of pre- Homo Sapiens
                    > and realized that they were not quite "like us"?
                    >
                    > Yigal Levin
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Jack Kilmon
                    > To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:20 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim
                    >
                    >
                    > It does suggest an interesting topic. How long does a "cultural memory"
                    > survive in oral tradition? I can understand such events as the Thera
                    > explosion ~1600 BCE as potentially responsible for phenomena in the OT
                    > and
                    > perhaps even the neolithic Black Sea overflow for the Great Floods of
                    > Gilgamesh and Genesis (7,000 ybp) but stories passed down from the
                    > paleolithic? Think its possible?
                    >
                    > Jack
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@...>
                    > To: <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 3:01 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim
                    >
                    > > Right -- but the Neanderthals coexisted for a time with AMH and perhaps
                    > > interbred and/or fought with them (us), though the genetic and
                    > > anthropological evidence on this is hotly contested. That's why I said
                    > > something about a "cultural memory" of strange and fierce uber-people.
                    > > Anyway, don't consider that a suggested theory. I'm interested to know
                    > > how
                    > > they've been understood in the past and if there are any related ANE
                    > > stories
                    > > / legends.
                    > >
                    > > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > >
                    > >> The last Neandertals died out at the end of the Iberian Peninsula
                    > >> around
                    > >> 30,000 years ago and probably about 40,000 years ago in the Middle
                    > East.
                    > >> H.
                    > >> neandertalensis was also shorter (but stockier) than AMH.
                    > >>
                    > >> These various -ims are either literary inventions or embellished
                    > accounts
                    > >> from the Bronze Age conflicts in the ANE...IMO
                    > >>
                    > >> Jack
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG.
                    > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date:
                    > 27/04/2008 09:39
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Jack Kilmon
                    The wedge tomb is interesting. I have been on digs in the Israel but not yet in the UK which I would like to do before I m entombed myself. My ancestry is
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 29, 2008
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                      The wedge tomb is interesting. I have been on digs in the Israel but not
                      yet in the UK which I would like to do before I'm entombed myself. My
                      ancestry is Pictish from the environs of Aberdeenshire in Scotland. Maybe I
                      have some imbedded memories of painting my face in blue woad and scaring the
                      hell out of some Romans. Maybe they put up thatwall just to keep me out.

                      Jack


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@...>
                      To: <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 3:39 PM
                      Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim


                      > Not my area of expertise, but evolutionary psychology suggests this might
                      > be
                      > so, I think. I remember a couple of years ago crawling around a neolithic
                      > wedge tomb in Ireland (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dopderbeck/327584658/)
                      > from around 2500 BCE, seeing where it was sited looking over a valley, and
                      > later looking at the bog bodies and neolithic gold artifacts in the Dublin
                      > museum, and wondering at the extensive and rich culture those people had.
                      > They had cultural memories as sophisticated as ours, probably; and why not
                      > those before them, and so on, including maybe memories of horrifying
                      > encounters with man-beasts?
                      >
                      > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      >> It does suggest an interesting topic. How long does a "cultural memory"
                      >> survive in oral tradition? I can understand such events as the Thera
                      >> explosion ~1600 BCE as potentially responsible for phenomena in the OT
                      >> and
                      >>
                      >> perhaps even the neolithic Black Sea overflow for the Great Floods of
                      >> Gilgamesh and Genesis (7,000 ybp) but stories passed down from the
                      >> paleolithic? Think its possible?
                      >>
                      >> Jack
                      >>
                      >> ----- Original Message -----
                      >> From: "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@... <dopderbeck%40gmail.com>>
                      >> To: <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com <biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      >> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 3:01 PM
                      >> Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim
                      >>
                      >> > Right -- but the Neanderthals coexisted for a time with AMH and perhaps
                      >> > interbred and/or fought with them (us), though the genetic and
                      >> > anthropological evidence on this is hotly contested. That's why I said
                      >> > something about a "cultural memory" of strange and fierce uber-people.
                      >> > Anyway, don't consider that a suggested theory. I'm interested to know
                      >> > how
                      >> > they've been understood in the past and if there are any related ANE
                      >> > stories
                      >> > / legends.
                      >> >
                      >> > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Jack Kilmon
                      >> > <jkilmon@...<jkilmon%40historian.net>>
                      >>
                      >> > wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> >> The last Neandertals died out at the end of the Iberian Peninsula
                      >> >> around
                      >> >> 30,000 years ago and probably about 40,000 years ago in the Middle
                      >> East.
                      >> >> H.
                      >> >> neandertalensis was also shorter (but stockier) than AMH.
                      >> >>
                      >> >> These various -ims are either literary inventions or embellished
                      >> accounts
                      >> >> from the Bronze Age conflicts in the ANE...IMO
                      >> >>
                      >> >> Jack
                      >> >>
                      >> >>
                      >> >>
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > ------------------------------------
                      >> >
                      >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > David W. Opderbeck
                      > Associate Professor of Law
                      > Seton Hall University Law School
                      > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Jack Kilmon
                      It makes me think of Pliny the Elder s account of the 12 foot tall Syrbotae on the African side of Ethiopia. I cannot count the times, while rattlesnake
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 29, 2008
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                        It makes me think of Pliny the Elder's account of the 12 foot tall
                        "Syrbotae" on the "African side of Ethiopia." I cannot count the times,
                        while rattlesnake hunting in West Texas, that I have heard stories of 12
                        foot rattlesnakes crossing the road with the head on one side of the road
                        and the "tail in the barditch on the other side."
                        Of course no Western Diamondback exceeds 6 feet. A 5'4" average height
                        ancient explorer in East North Africa encountering a 6'6" Tutsy would easily
                        increase the height another foot/cubit every day it took to return home.
                        There should also have been the same incidence of pituitary gigantism in the
                        ancient world that would lead to stories in every culture. Just speculating
                        a bit, if Goliath was historical and a pituitary giant, he would have been
                        slow moving on painful joints and relying on his size to frighten opponents
                        making it possible for just a lad to best him with a shepherd's sling.

                        Could small populations of Neandertals have survived into neolithic times?
                        That could indeed be possible and the absence of fossils attributable to the
                        rarity of human fossils. It now appears that a diminutive species of Homo
                        erectus may have survived until a relatively recent 18,000 years ago on
                        Flores Island.

                        Jack Kilmon


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Peter Kirk" <peter@...>
                        To: <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:27 PM
                        Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Anakim, Rephaim, Nephilim, and Emim


                        > On 29/04/2008 20:46, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                        >> ...
                        >> The last Neandertals died out at the end of the Iberian Peninsula around
                        >> 30,000 years ago and probably about 40,000 years ago in the Middle East.
                        >> H.
                        >> neandertalensis was also shorter (but stockier) than AMH.
                        >>
                        >>
                        > More precisely, the last surviving evidence for Neanderthals is from
                        > this period. But what evidence would there be if some small groups of
                        > nomadic Neanderthals lived on until much more recently in deserts of
                        > Arabia or Sinai? Bones would not survive. Charactertistic Neanderthal
                        > tools might, but these late Neanderthals might have learned to make or
                        > acquire the same tools as modern humans.
                        >
                        > But a more probable hypothesis is that these "giants" were a racially
                        > distinct extra tall tribe, perhaps related to the Nilotic peoples of
                        > modern Sudan and nearby countries. The stories of Goliath and other
                        > giants from David's time suggest that some of this tribe survived until
                        > around 1000 BC.
                        >
                        > --
                        > Peter Kirk
                        > E-mail: peter@...
                        > Blog: http://www.qaya.org/blog/
                        > Website: http://www.qaya.org/
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Darrell Pursiful
                        Some have suggested an Indo-European pedigree for some of these groups. Moshe Dothan, for example, wants to identify the Anakim with early Aegean settlers of
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 30, 2008
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                          Some have suggested an Indo-European pedigree for some of these
                          groups. Moshe Dothan, for example, wants to identify the "Anakim" with
                          early Aegean settlers of the Levant and suggests that anak may be
                          derived from Mycenaean Greek wanax (Linear B wa-na-ka), "lord."
                          However, the Anakim attested in Egyptian Execration Texts (12th
                          Dynasty) all seem to have Semitic names.

                          "Rephaim" may have the connotation of "hero." The two words are
                          sometimes parallel to each other in Ugaritic texts. In the Legend of
                          Aqhat, the hero's father is called a "Rapa-man."

                          There is archeological evidence for northerners encroaching upon the
                          Levant, particularly at Byblos, in the centuries following the
                          collapse of the Early Bronze Age. I'm led to believe archeologists see
                          both Hurrian and Indo-European elements to this minority population.
                          The textual references to Anakim and Rephaim (Egyptian, Ugaritic, and
                          biblical) are a fair bit later than this, however. Still, if there is
                          a "cultural memory" in play, it may be of tall (fair-skinned?)
                          warriors swarming out of the north and establishing themselves as
                          petty kings and warlords across the ancient landscape.

                          Darrell Pursiful
                          Smyth & Helwys Publishing
                          Mercer University
                        • Peter Kirk
                          ... So, more likely than Dinka or Tutsi, Jack s Pictish relatives? -- Peter Kirk E-mail: peter@qaya.org Blog: http://www.qaya.org/blog/ Website:
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 30, 2008
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                            On 30/04/2008 13:05, Darrell Pursiful wrote:
                            > ... Still, if there is
                            > a "cultural memory" in play, it may be of tall (fair-skinned?)
                            > warriors swarming out of the north and establishing themselves as
                            > petty kings and warlords across the ancient landscape.
                            >
                            >
                            So, more likely than Dinka or Tutsi, Jack's Pictish relatives?

                            --
                            Peter Kirk
                            E-mail: peter@...
                            Blog: http://www.qaya.org/blog/
                            Website: http://www.qaya.org/
                          • Rochelle Altman
                            Now, Peter, come on. It is well known that the invaders from the North were taller than the locals. Heck, one of the graves in Britain turned up a king/leader
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 30, 2008
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                              Now, Peter, come on. It is well known that the invaders from the North were taller than the locals. Heck, one of the graves in Britain turned up a king/leader who was just under 7 feet tall.

                              Now, I have been following this thread. Us well-fed Modrens seem to forget that malnutrition keeps people small.

                              May I mention that the majority of West Semitic folks were short? In fact, most people were short. Among the Judeans, really tall ones were so unusual that the cognomen "Goliath" was bestowed on the progenitor in the family tomb in Jericho. (Well, he was 187 cm in height.)

                              Most kings/rulers were much taller than their subjects. Having to literally look up to a king/leader emphasized his/her status. Saul was tall; one of the complaints about David is that he was small (unkingly). Darius was tall, so were his daughters.The one who was married to Alexander was 6 feet. The Stuarts were tall -- Mary of Scotland was 6 feet; Charles II was 6 foot 4. His mistresses stood 5 feet 11 inches -- both of them. The Tudors were not short, either. The skeleton at Mycenae was thought to be Agamemnom because the person had been so tall. Another grave turned up another "giant" and was said to be that of Theseus.
                              And on and on.

                              So, if your average runs 5 feet in height for non-aristocrat males, a six-footer is a giant. Then, Goliath was about the same height as Wilt "The Stilt" Chamberlain. Just standing amongst the members of a college basketball team will make even a 6 footer feel like a midget.

                              I remember one time I was waiting in line at the bank, politely looking down at the floor. An enormous pair of sparkling white gym shoes in the next line caught my eye. Glancing across I saw a little old lady about 4 foot 11 standing in front of Al Sipari of Maccabbi Tel-Aviv (basketball team). Behind him was a little old man about 5 foot 2 inches. The woman came up to his belly button; the man was in line with the middle of his rib cage. The report to Joshua by the scouts about the giants out there immediately came to mind, brought forth by this living reminder.

                              You do not need a very long "cultural memory" to recall blonde giants.

                              You do need to remember that the average non-aristocratic person was short.

                              Back to lurking,

                              Rochelle
                              --
                              Dr. R. I. S. Altman



                              Peter Kirk <peter@...> wrote: On 30/04/2008 13:05, Darrell Pursiful wrote:
                              > ... Still, if there is
                              > a "cultural memory" in play, it may be of tall (fair-skinned?)
                              > warriors swarming out of the north and establishing themselves as
                              > petty kings and warlords across the ancient landscape.
                              >
                              >
                              So, more likely than Dinka or Tutsi, Jack's Pictish relatives?

                              --
                              Peter Kirk
                              E-mail: peter@...
                              Blog: http://www.qaya.org/blog/
                              Website: http://www.qaya.org/



                              __.




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