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Re: [biblicalist] "Father Draws Him" Grammar

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  • Marny Lemmel
    Actually, it is an active subjunctive form in a present general condition. Literally, that portion of the condition states, Unless the Father, having sent me,
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 11, 2013
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      Actually, it is an active subjunctive form in a present general condition. Literally, that portion of the condition states, "Unless the Father, having sent me, draws him." Hope that helps.

      Marny Lemmel

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: funhistory <yahoo_biblical-studies@...>
      To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:25:38 -0400 (EDT)
      Subject: [biblicalist] "Father Draws Him" Grammar





      "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him..." (John 6:44).


      Question for the NT Greek experts among us: Is "Father draws him (Pater elkuse auton)" in this verse active or passive? By analogy, a pretty lady can unwittingly attract a man just because she's (passively) a pretty lady; or a lady can doll herself up in an attractive way & (actively) cross a specific man's path to ensure he notices her. Which of these reflects the grammar of John 6:44, & how would the grammar of the noun, verb, &/or pronoun have to change to convey the opposite voice? I've seen this verse discussed in the context of Calvinism & Arminianism, but I just want unbiased grammar sans dogma. As always, thanks in advance for any responses!


      G.M. Grena

      www.LMLK.org


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • George F Somsel
      In case you didn t completely understand Marny s explanation, here are a couple of passages from Smyth s Greek Grammar.  c.The simple condition is particular
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 11, 2013
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        In case you didn't completely understand Marny's explanation, here are a couple of passages from Smyth's Greek Grammar.
         c.The simple condition is particular or general. When the protasis has εἴ τιςand the apodosis a present indicative, the simple condition has a double meaning referring both to an individual case and to a rule of action. When a present general condition is distinctly expressed, ἐᾱ́νwith the subjunctive is used (2337.) §2298
         2337.
        Present general conditions have, in the protasis, ἐᾱ́ν (ἤν, ᾱ̓́ν)with the subjunctive; in the apodosis, the present indicative or an equivalent. ἐᾱ̀ν ταῦτα ποιῇς (ποιήσῃς), σὲ ἐπαινῶif ever you do this, I always praise you. The conclusion holds true of any time or of all time. §2237
         Smyth, Herbert Weir. A Greek Grammar for Colleges. New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company, 1920.

        george

        gfsomsel

         search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
         love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
         defend the truth till death.

        - Jan Hus
        _________



        >________________________________
        > From: Marny Lemmel <lemmels@...>
        >To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 4:35 PM
        >Subject: Re: [biblicalist] "Father Draws Him" Grammar
        >
        >

        >
        >Actually, it is an active subjunctive form in a present general condition. Literally, that portion of the condition states, "Unless the Father, having sent me, draws him." Hope that helps.
        >
        >Marny Lemmel
        >
        >----- Original Message -----
        >From: funhistory <mailto:yahoo_biblical-studies%40lmlk.com>
        >To: mailto:biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com
        >Sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:25:38 -0400 (EDT)
        >Subject: [biblicalist] "Father Draws Him" Grammar
        >
        >"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him..." (John 6:44).
        >
        >Question for the NT Greek experts among us: Is "Father draws him (Pater elkuse auton)" in this verse active or passive? By analogy, a pretty lady can unwittingly attract a man just because she's (passively) a pretty lady; or a lady can doll herself up in an attractive way & (actively) cross a specific man's path to ensure he notices her. Which of these reflects the grammar of John 6:44, & how would the grammar of the noun, verb, &/or pronoun have to change to convey the opposite voice? I've seen this verse discussed in the context of Calvinism & Arminianism, but I just want unbiased grammar sans dogma. As always, thanks in advance for any responses!
        >
        >G.M. Grena
        >
        >www.LMLK.org
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • funhistory
        Thanks, George & Marny. So this means that both interpretations are valid? Getting back to my original analogy, the lady can attract men in general just
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 12, 2013
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          Thanks, George & Marny. So this means that both interpretations are valid? Getting back to my original analogy, the lady can attract men in general just because she's pretty, & also on individual occasions when she goes out of her way to attract specific ones? That's what I perceive from Smyth's "double meaning / individual case and to a rule of action" & "any time or of all time".

          G.M. Grena
          www.LMLK.org
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