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"Father Draws Him" Grammar

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  • funhistory
    No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him... (John 6:44). Question for the NT Greek experts among us: Is Father draws him (Pater elkuse
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 11, 2013
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      "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him..." (John 6:44).

      Question for the NT Greek experts among us: Is "Father draws him (Pater elkuse auton)" in this verse active or passive? By analogy, a pretty lady can unwittingly attract a man just because she's (passively) a pretty lady; or a lady can doll herself up in an attractive way & (actively) cross a specific man's path to ensure he notices her. Which of these reflects the grammar of John 6:44, & how would the grammar of the noun, verb, &/or pronoun have to change to convey the opposite voice? I've seen this verse discussed in the context of Calvinism & Arminianism, but I just want unbiased grammar sans dogma. As always, thanks in advance for any responses!

      G.M. Grena
      www.LMLK.org
    • Marny Lemmel
      Actually, it is an active subjunctive form in a present general condition. Literally, that portion of the condition states, Unless the Father, having sent me,
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 11, 2013
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        Actually, it is an active subjunctive form in a present general condition. Literally, that portion of the condition states, "Unless the Father, having sent me, draws him." Hope that helps.

        Marny Lemmel

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: funhistory <yahoo_biblical-studies@...>
        To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:25:38 -0400 (EDT)
        Subject: [biblicalist] "Father Draws Him" Grammar





        "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him..." (John 6:44).


        Question for the NT Greek experts among us: Is "Father draws him (Pater elkuse auton)" in this verse active or passive? By analogy, a pretty lady can unwittingly attract a man just because she's (passively) a pretty lady; or a lady can doll herself up in an attractive way & (actively) cross a specific man's path to ensure he notices her. Which of these reflects the grammar of John 6:44, & how would the grammar of the noun, verb, &/or pronoun have to change to convey the opposite voice? I've seen this verse discussed in the context of Calvinism & Arminianism, but I just want unbiased grammar sans dogma. As always, thanks in advance for any responses!


        G.M. Grena

        www.LMLK.org


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • George F Somsel
        In case you didn t completely understand Marny s explanation, here are a couple of passages from Smyth s Greek Grammar.  c.The simple condition is particular
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 11, 2013
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          In case you didn't completely understand Marny's explanation, here are a couple of passages from Smyth's Greek Grammar.
           c.The simple condition is particular or general. When the protasis has εἴ τιςand the apodosis a present indicative, the simple condition has a double meaning referring both to an individual case and to a rule of action. When a present general condition is distinctly expressed, ἐᾱ́νwith the subjunctive is used (2337.) §2298
           2337.
          Present general conditions have, in the protasis, ἐᾱ́ν (ἤν, ᾱ̓́ν)with the subjunctive; in the apodosis, the present indicative or an equivalent. ἐᾱ̀ν ταῦτα ποιῇς (ποιήσῃς), σὲ ἐπαινῶif ever you do this, I always praise you. The conclusion holds true of any time or of all time. §2237
           Smyth, Herbert Weir. A Greek Grammar for Colleges. New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company, 1920.

          george

          gfsomsel

           search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
           love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
           defend the truth till death.

          - Jan Hus
          _________



          >________________________________
          > From: Marny Lemmel <lemmels@...>
          >To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
          >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 4:35 PM
          >Subject: Re: [biblicalist] "Father Draws Him" Grammar
          >
          >

          >
          >Actually, it is an active subjunctive form in a present general condition. Literally, that portion of the condition states, "Unless the Father, having sent me, draws him." Hope that helps.
          >
          >Marny Lemmel
          >
          >----- Original Message -----
          >From: funhistory <mailto:yahoo_biblical-studies%40lmlk.com>
          >To: mailto:biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com
          >Sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:25:38 -0400 (EDT)
          >Subject: [biblicalist] "Father Draws Him" Grammar
          >
          >"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him..." (John 6:44).
          >
          >Question for the NT Greek experts among us: Is "Father draws him (Pater elkuse auton)" in this verse active or passive? By analogy, a pretty lady can unwittingly attract a man just because she's (passively) a pretty lady; or a lady can doll herself up in an attractive way & (actively) cross a specific man's path to ensure he notices her. Which of these reflects the grammar of John 6:44, & how would the grammar of the noun, verb, &/or pronoun have to change to convey the opposite voice? I've seen this verse discussed in the context of Calvinism & Arminianism, but I just want unbiased grammar sans dogma. As always, thanks in advance for any responses!
          >
          >G.M. Grena
          >
          >www.LMLK.org
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • funhistory
          Thanks, George & Marny. So this means that both interpretations are valid? Getting back to my original analogy, the lady can attract men in general just
          Message 4 of 4 , Apr 12, 2013
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            Thanks, George & Marny. So this means that both interpretations are valid? Getting back to my original analogy, the lady can attract men in general just because she's pretty, & also on individual occasions when she goes out of her way to attract specific ones? That's what I perceive from Smyth's "double meaning / individual case and to a rule of action" & "any time or of all time".

            G.M. Grena
            www.LMLK.org
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