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Re: [biblicalist] Common English Bible

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  • Harold Holmyard
    Hi, Jack, Since you were kind enough to reply to my misspellings, I will respond by saying that I believe there is a good chance t ... [Non-text portions of
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 1, 2013
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      Hi, Jack,

      Since you were kind enough to reply to my misspellings, I will respond by
      saying that I believe there is a good chance t

      >
      >
      > Hi Harold:
      > At Matthew 5:3 "in spirit" τῷ πνεύματι, is an insert. The closer Greek
      > translation of this Aramaic saying can be found at Luke 6:20 Μακάριοι οἱ
      > πτωχοί ὅτι ὑμετέρα ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ tubaykon liskene
      > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha. There are several clues that suggest this is
      > the original vox Iesu. It conforms with Jesus' βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, malkutha
      > d'aloha "Kingdom of God" focus, whereas the Matthean version uses βασιλεία
      > τῶν οὐρανῶν "Kingdom of HEAVEN." The back translation is "tubaykon miskene
      > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha." "Blessed/fortunate (not "HAPPY") are the
      > poor, theirs is the Kingdom of God." Nothing made early scribes happier
      > than screwing around with the sources and texts so if there is going to be
      > the 500th translation of the NT texts to jump on the best seller band
      > wagon,
      > translations of "intent" or "thrust" of Jesus' sayings should, at the very
      > least, appeal to the same saying in the other gospels (Luke often being
      > the
      > more primitive/original) and intent appealed to the general corpus of
      > Jesus'
      > sayings. Getting a feel for what this man was all about and who is
      > audience
      > was (the poor and disenfranchised) would help and, as has been my mantra
      > since I was 12, an appeal to the actual idiom of Jesus himself. Why this
      > gets so much resistance in New Testament scholarship has always been an
      > enigma to me and, in my opinion, is academic negligence. This is why I get
      > amused when I see really silly paraphrases of Jesus' sayings by
      > translators
      > who produce something as bizarre as "Happy are those who know they are
      > spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them" or this "Common
      > English" rendition.
      >
      > Another of many examples for appealing to Aramaic idiom is in John:
      >
      > John 4:32 Ἐγὼ βρῶσιν ἔχω φαγεῖν ἣν ὑμεῖς οὐκ οἴδατε
      > I have food to eat which you you do
      > not know
      > John 4:34 Ἐμὸν βρῶμά ἐστιν ἵνα ποιῶ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ
      > my food is that I may do the will of
      > the one
      > πέμψαντός με καὶ τελειώσω αὐτοῦ τὸ ἔργον
      > having sent me and may complete his work
      >
      > 4:32 אית לי מאכולתא
      > it li melkutha
      > I have FOOD
      > דאכול אידא דאנתון לא ידעין אנתון׃
      > dekol ayda datton la yad’in tton
      > to eat that you do not know about
      >
      > 4:34 מאכולתי דילי איתיה דאעבד צבינה
      > mekulthy dyly itheh de’ebb’ed tsibyaneh
      > my FOOD is to do the will of him
      > דמן דשׁדרני ואשׁלמיוהי לעבדה׃
      > d’man d’shaddrany we’shalmmiwhy la’abadeh
      > who sent me and to accomplish his work
      >
      > Obviously, Jesus isn’t talking about a hamburger (cheeseburgers wouldn’t
      > be
      > kosher).
      >
      > Food to eat (knowledge) I have KNOWLEDGE that you do not know about
      > My teaching (I am taught) to do the will of Him who sent me and to
      > accomplish
      > His work.
      >
      > In the Aramaic idiom, food and drink represented knowledge and teachings.
      > Drinking and eating were listening and learning. The bread and wine were
      > Jesus' teachings. If they want to produce the 501st translation, they
      > should
      > at least appeal to Common Aramaic idiom first, and then to "common
      > English."
      >
      > Jack Kilmon
      > Houston, TX
      >
      >
      > >
      > > Jack Kilmon
      > > Houston, TX
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Harold Holmyard
      Dear Jack, I apologize for hitting something on Gmail to send that last email out too soon. I think there is a good chance that Matthew s sermon on the mount
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 1, 2013
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        Dear Jack,

        I apologize for hitting something on Gmail to send that last email out too
        soon. I think there is a good chance that Matthew's sermon on the mount is
        a different sermon than Luke's sermon on the plain. Matthew's sermon
        (Matthew 5-7) comes well before the commissioning of the apostles (Matthew
        10), and Luke's sermon (Luke 6) comes right after the selection of the
        twelve apostles. Matthew's is much longer, and there are numerous
        differences between the two. Jesus would have preached many similar
        messages as he went from place to place addressing people who had not heard
        him before. So I don't assume that "in spirit" was a scribal insert. I like
        "food" in John 4 as it is, giving the idea of what fueled Jesus in his
        ministry. I'm sympathetic with you on "blessed" rather than "happy," but
        "happy" is a lexical entry for the word in BDAG, and the lexicon gives
        examples. Most translations use a variant of "blessed: CJB, HCSB, ESV, GWN,
        NASB, NET, NIV, NJB, NLT, NRSV.

        Yours,
        Harold


        >
        > Hi Harold:
        > At Matthew 5:3 "in spirit" τῷ πνεύματι, is an insert. The closer Greek
        > translation of this Aramaic saying can be found at Luke 6:20 Μακάριοι οἱ
        > πτωχοί ὅτι ὑμετέρα ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ tubaykon liskene
        > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha. There are several clues that suggest this is
        > the original vox Iesu. It conforms with Jesus' βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, malkutha
        > d'aloha "Kingdom of God" focus, whereas the Matthean version uses βασιλεία
        > τῶν οὐρανῶν "Kingdom of HEAVEN." The back translation is "tubaykon miskene
        > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha." "Blessed/fortunate (not "HAPPY") are the
        > poor, theirs is the Kingdom of God." Nothing made early scribes happier
        > than screwing around with the sources and texts so if there is going to be
        > the 500th translation of the NT texts to jump on the best seller band
        > wagon,
        > translations of "intent" or "thrust" of Jesus' sayings should, at the very
        > least, appeal to the same saying in the other gospels (Luke often being
        > the
        > more primitive/original) and intent appealed to the general corpus of
        > Jesus'
        > sayings. Getting a feel for what this man was all about and who is
        > audience
        > was (the poor and disenfranchised) would help and, as has been my mantra
        > since I was 12, an appeal to the actual idiom of Jesus himself. Why this
        > gets so much resistance in New Testament scholarship has always been an
        > enigma to me and, in my opinion, is academic negligence. This is why I get
        > amused when I see really silly paraphrases of Jesus' sayings by
        > translators
        > who produce something as bizarre as "Happy are those who know they are
        > spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them" or this "Common
        > English" rendition.
        >
        > Another of many examples for appealing to Aramaic idiom is in John:
        >
        > John 4:32 Ἐγὼ βρῶσιν ἔχω φαγεῖν ἣν ὑμεῖς οὐκ οἴδατε
        > I have food to eat which you you do
        > not know
        > John 4:34 Ἐμὸν βρῶμά ἐστιν ἵνα ποιῶ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ
        > my food is that I may do the will of
        > the one
        > πέμψαντός με καὶ τελειώσω αὐτοῦ τὸ ἔργον
        > having sent me and may complete his work
        >
        > 4:32 אית לי מאכולתא
        > it li melkutha
        > I have FOOD
        > דאכול אידא דאנתון לא ידעין אנתון׃
        > dekol ayda datton la yad’in tton
        > to eat that you do not know about
        >
        > 4:34 מאכולתי דילי איתיה דאעבד צבינה
        > mekulthy dyly itheh de’ebb’ed tsibyaneh
        > my FOOD is to do the will of him
        > דמן דשׁדרני ואשׁלמיוהי לעבדה׃
        > d’man d’shaddrany we’shalmmiwhy la’abadeh
        > who sent me and to accomplish his work
        >
        > Obviously, Jesus isn’t talking about a hamburger (cheeseburgers wouldn’t
        > be
        > kosher).
        >
        > Food to eat (knowledge) I have KNOWLEDGE that you do not know about
        > My teaching (I am taught) to do the will of Him who sent me and to
        > accomplish
        > His work.
        >
        > In the Aramaic idiom, food and drink represented knowledge and teachings.
        > Drinking and eating were listening and learning. The bread and wine were
        > Jesus' teachings. If they want to produce the 501st translation, they
        > should
        > at least appeal to Common Aramaic idiom first, and then to "common
        > English."
        >
        > Jack Kilmon
        > Houston, TX
        >
        >
        > >
        > > Jack Kilmon
        > > Houston, TX
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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