Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [biblicalist] Common English Bible

Expand Messages
  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: Harold Holmyard Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 6:49 AM To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Common English Bible Hi, Jack, ...
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 1, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Harold Holmyard
      Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 6:49 AM
      To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Common English Bible

      Hi, Jack,

      > **
      >
      > How many times can Hebrew and Greek be translated 10 different ways? What
      > is "common English?" The first beatitude, for example, in this
      > translation,
      > which must be called a paraphrase, is:
      > "Happy are people who are hopeless, because the kingdom of heaven is
      > theirs"
      > Another of these weird translations, the Good News Translation, is
      > "Happy are those who know they are spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven
      > belongs to them"
      >
      > I don't know why I went through all that time learning Hebrew, Greek and
      > Aramaic. I could just make it up.
      >

      I don't know that these translations are making things up. I assume that
      when Jesus spoke to his contemporaries, his words and phrases, though
      perhaps not the thrust of what he was saying, was readily understandable.
      But even to churched people, the phrase "poor in spirit" may not connote
      much of anything. I am like you in having a preference for a literal
      translation, but I can certainly see how someone might try to capture the
      flavor of the literal Greek and put it in corresponding English. If someone
      researched the phrase and determined that in Greek it implied being
      discouraged or without hope, then I guess "hopeless" would communicate that
      usage. "Spiritually poor" more readily communicates to me than "poor in
      spirit," though I am not absolutely sure of the corrspondence. But with the
      variety of translations, one gets a fuller picture of what the original may
      have meant. As long as each translator is trying to capture what the
      original Greek implied, we can at least give a thoughtful consideration to
      his suggested translation. Knowing the original languages puts you in a
      better position than almost anyone. It may help you to absoutely rule out
      some efforts, whereas someone without that knowledge might not be able to
      pick and choose.

      Yours,
      Harold

      Hi Harold:
      At Matthew 5:3 "in spirit" τῷ πνεύματι, is an insert. The closer Greek
      translation of this Aramaic saying can be found at Luke 6:20 Μακάριοι οἱ
      πτωχοί ὅτι ὑμετέρα ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ <Aramaic> tubaykon liskene
      d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha. There are several clues that suggest this is
      the original vox Iesu. It conforms with Jesus' βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, malkutha
      d'aloha "Kingdom of God" focus, whereas the Matthean version uses βασιλεία
      τῶν οὐρανῶν "Kingdom of HEAVEN." The back translation is "tubaykon miskene
      d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha." "Blessed/fortunate (not "HAPPY") are the
      poor, theirs is the Kingdom of God." Nothing made early scribes happier
      than screwing around with the sources and texts so if there is going to be
      the 500th translation of the NT texts to jump on the best seller band wagon,
      translations of "intent" or "thrust" of Jesus' sayings should, at the very
      least, appeal to the same saying in the other gospels (Luke often being the
      more primitive/original) and intent appealed to the general corpus of Jesus'
      sayings. Getting a feel for what this man was all about and who is audience
      was (the poor and disenfranchised) would help and, as has been my mantra
      since I was 12, an appeal to the actual idiom of Jesus himself. Why this
      gets so much resistance in New Testament scholarship has always been an
      enigma to me and, in my opinion, is academic negligence. This is why I get
      amused when I see really silly paraphrases of Jesus' sayings by translators
      who produce something as bizarre as "Happy are those who know they are
      spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them" or this "Common
      English" rendition.

      Another of many examples for appealing to Aramaic idiom is in John:

      John 4:32 Ἐγὼ βρῶσιν ἔχω φαγεῖν ἣν ὑμεῖς οὐκ οἴδατε
      I have food to eat which you you do
      not know
      John 4:34 Ἐμὸν βρῶμά ἐστιν ἵνα ποιῶ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ
      my food is that I may do the will of
      the one
      πέμψαντός με καὶ τελειώσω αὐτοῦ τὸ ἔργον
      having sent me and may complete his work

      4:32 אית לי מאכולתא
      it li melkutha
      I have FOOD
      דאכול אידא דאנתון לא ידעין אנתון׃
      dekol ayda datton la yad’in tton
      to eat that you do not know about

      4:34 מאכולתי דילי איתיה דאעבד צבינה
      mekulthy dyly itheh de’ebb’ed tsibyaneh
      my FOOD is to do the will of him
      דמן דשׁדרני ואשׁלמיוהי לעבדה׃
      d’man d’shaddrany we’shalmmiwhy la’abadeh
      who sent me and to accomplish his work

      Obviously, Jesus isn’t talking about a hamburger (cheeseburgers wouldn’t be
      kosher).

      Food to eat (knowledge) I have KNOWLEDGE that you do not know about
      My teaching (I am taught) to do the will of Him who sent me and to
      accomplish
      His work.

      In the Aramaic idiom, food and drink represented knowledge and teachings.
      Drinking and eating were listening and learning. The bread and wine were
      Jesus' teachings. If they want to produce the 501st translation, they should
      at least appeal to Common Aramaic idiom first, and then to "common English."

      Jack Kilmon
      Houston, TX

      >
      > Jack Kilmon
      > Houston, TX
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Harold Holmyard
      Hi, Jack, Since you were kind enough to reply to my misspellings, I will respond by saying that I believe there is a good chance t ... [Non-text portions of
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 1, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi, Jack,

        Since you were kind enough to reply to my misspellings, I will respond by
        saying that I believe there is a good chance t

        >
        >
        > Hi Harold:
        > At Matthew 5:3 "in spirit" τῷ πνεύματι, is an insert. The closer Greek
        > translation of this Aramaic saying can be found at Luke 6:20 Μακάριοι οἱ
        > πτωχοί ὅτι ὑμετέρα ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ tubaykon liskene
        > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha. There are several clues that suggest this is
        > the original vox Iesu. It conforms with Jesus' βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, malkutha
        > d'aloha "Kingdom of God" focus, whereas the Matthean version uses βασιλεία
        > τῶν οὐρανῶν "Kingdom of HEAVEN." The back translation is "tubaykon miskene
        > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha." "Blessed/fortunate (not "HAPPY") are the
        > poor, theirs is the Kingdom of God." Nothing made early scribes happier
        > than screwing around with the sources and texts so if there is going to be
        > the 500th translation of the NT texts to jump on the best seller band
        > wagon,
        > translations of "intent" or "thrust" of Jesus' sayings should, at the very
        > least, appeal to the same saying in the other gospels (Luke often being
        > the
        > more primitive/original) and intent appealed to the general corpus of
        > Jesus'
        > sayings. Getting a feel for what this man was all about and who is
        > audience
        > was (the poor and disenfranchised) would help and, as has been my mantra
        > since I was 12, an appeal to the actual idiom of Jesus himself. Why this
        > gets so much resistance in New Testament scholarship has always been an
        > enigma to me and, in my opinion, is academic negligence. This is why I get
        > amused when I see really silly paraphrases of Jesus' sayings by
        > translators
        > who produce something as bizarre as "Happy are those who know they are
        > spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them" or this "Common
        > English" rendition.
        >
        > Another of many examples for appealing to Aramaic idiom is in John:
        >
        > John 4:32 Ἐγὼ βρῶσιν ἔχω φαγεῖν ἣν ὑμεῖς οὐκ οἴδατε
        > I have food to eat which you you do
        > not know
        > John 4:34 Ἐμὸν βρῶμά ἐστιν ἵνα ποιῶ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ
        > my food is that I may do the will of
        > the one
        > πέμψαντός με καὶ τελειώσω αὐτοῦ τὸ ἔργον
        > having sent me and may complete his work
        >
        > 4:32 אית לי מאכולתא
        > it li melkutha
        > I have FOOD
        > דאכול אידא דאנתון לא ידעין אנתון׃
        > dekol ayda datton la yad’in tton
        > to eat that you do not know about
        >
        > 4:34 מאכולתי דילי איתיה דאעבד צבינה
        > mekulthy dyly itheh de’ebb’ed tsibyaneh
        > my FOOD is to do the will of him
        > דמן דשׁדרני ואשׁלמיוהי לעבדה׃
        > d’man d’shaddrany we’shalmmiwhy la’abadeh
        > who sent me and to accomplish his work
        >
        > Obviously, Jesus isn’t talking about a hamburger (cheeseburgers wouldn’t
        > be
        > kosher).
        >
        > Food to eat (knowledge) I have KNOWLEDGE that you do not know about
        > My teaching (I am taught) to do the will of Him who sent me and to
        > accomplish
        > His work.
        >
        > In the Aramaic idiom, food and drink represented knowledge and teachings.
        > Drinking and eating were listening and learning. The bread and wine were
        > Jesus' teachings. If they want to produce the 501st translation, they
        > should
        > at least appeal to Common Aramaic idiom first, and then to "common
        > English."
        >
        > Jack Kilmon
        > Houston, TX
        >
        >
        > >
        > > Jack Kilmon
        > > Houston, TX
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Harold Holmyard
        Dear Jack, I apologize for hitting something on Gmail to send that last email out too soon. I think there is a good chance that Matthew s sermon on the mount
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 1, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Jack,

          I apologize for hitting something on Gmail to send that last email out too
          soon. I think there is a good chance that Matthew's sermon on the mount is
          a different sermon than Luke's sermon on the plain. Matthew's sermon
          (Matthew 5-7) comes well before the commissioning of the apostles (Matthew
          10), and Luke's sermon (Luke 6) comes right after the selection of the
          twelve apostles. Matthew's is much longer, and there are numerous
          differences between the two. Jesus would have preached many similar
          messages as he went from place to place addressing people who had not heard
          him before. So I don't assume that "in spirit" was a scribal insert. I like
          "food" in John 4 as it is, giving the idea of what fueled Jesus in his
          ministry. I'm sympathetic with you on "blessed" rather than "happy," but
          "happy" is a lexical entry for the word in BDAG, and the lexicon gives
          examples. Most translations use a variant of "blessed: CJB, HCSB, ESV, GWN,
          NASB, NET, NIV, NJB, NLT, NRSV.

          Yours,
          Harold


          >
          > Hi Harold:
          > At Matthew 5:3 "in spirit" τῷ πνεύματι, is an insert. The closer Greek
          > translation of this Aramaic saying can be found at Luke 6:20 Μακάριοι οἱ
          > πτωχοί ὅτι ὑμετέρα ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ tubaykon liskene
          > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha. There are several clues that suggest this is
          > the original vox Iesu. It conforms with Jesus' βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, malkutha
          > d'aloha "Kingdom of God" focus, whereas the Matthean version uses βασιλεία
          > τῶν οὐρανῶν "Kingdom of HEAVEN." The back translation is "tubaykon miskene
          > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha." "Blessed/fortunate (not "HAPPY") are the
          > poor, theirs is the Kingdom of God." Nothing made early scribes happier
          > than screwing around with the sources and texts so if there is going to be
          > the 500th translation of the NT texts to jump on the best seller band
          > wagon,
          > translations of "intent" or "thrust" of Jesus' sayings should, at the very
          > least, appeal to the same saying in the other gospels (Luke often being
          > the
          > more primitive/original) and intent appealed to the general corpus of
          > Jesus'
          > sayings. Getting a feel for what this man was all about and who is
          > audience
          > was (the poor and disenfranchised) would help and, as has been my mantra
          > since I was 12, an appeal to the actual idiom of Jesus himself. Why this
          > gets so much resistance in New Testament scholarship has always been an
          > enigma to me and, in my opinion, is academic negligence. This is why I get
          > amused when I see really silly paraphrases of Jesus' sayings by
          > translators
          > who produce something as bizarre as "Happy are those who know they are
          > spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them" or this "Common
          > English" rendition.
          >
          > Another of many examples for appealing to Aramaic idiom is in John:
          >
          > John 4:32 Ἐγὼ βρῶσιν ἔχω φαγεῖν ἣν ὑμεῖς οὐκ οἴδατε
          > I have food to eat which you you do
          > not know
          > John 4:34 Ἐμὸν βρῶμά ἐστιν ἵνα ποιῶ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ
          > my food is that I may do the will of
          > the one
          > πέμψαντός με καὶ τελειώσω αὐτοῦ τὸ ἔργον
          > having sent me and may complete his work
          >
          > 4:32 אית לי מאכולתא
          > it li melkutha
          > I have FOOD
          > דאכול אידא דאנתון לא ידעין אנתון׃
          > dekol ayda datton la yad’in tton
          > to eat that you do not know about
          >
          > 4:34 מאכולתי דילי איתיה דאעבד צבינה
          > mekulthy dyly itheh de’ebb’ed tsibyaneh
          > my FOOD is to do the will of him
          > דמן דשׁדרני ואשׁלמיוהי לעבדה׃
          > d’man d’shaddrany we’shalmmiwhy la’abadeh
          > who sent me and to accomplish his work
          >
          > Obviously, Jesus isn’t talking about a hamburger (cheeseburgers wouldn’t
          > be
          > kosher).
          >
          > Food to eat (knowledge) I have KNOWLEDGE that you do not know about
          > My teaching (I am taught) to do the will of Him who sent me and to
          > accomplish
          > His work.
          >
          > In the Aramaic idiom, food and drink represented knowledge and teachings.
          > Drinking and eating were listening and learning. The bread and wine were
          > Jesus' teachings. If they want to produce the 501st translation, they
          > should
          > at least appeal to Common Aramaic idiom first, and then to "common
          > English."
          >
          > Jack Kilmon
          > Houston, TX
          >
          >
          > >
          > > Jack Kilmon
          > > Houston, TX
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.