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Common English Bible

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  • Harold Holmyard
    From: Harold Holmyard To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com Cc: Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 21:45:51 -0600 Subject: Re: [biblicalist] CEB
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 31, 2013
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      From: Harold Holmyard <haroldholmyard3@...>
      To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
      Cc:
      Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 21:45:51 -0600
      Subject: Re: [biblicalist] CEB reviews?

      Hi, Stephen,

      I've been searching the EBSCO and JSTOR databases for academic reviews of
      > the Common English Bible. To date I've only discovered one, of the New
      > Testament section only, in the Sewanee Theological Journal of 2011. There
      > are, of course, a number of informal reviews on the Web--not what I'm
      > looking for. So are such reviews just not out there yet, or what am I
      > overlooking?
      >

      I put "Common English Bible" into Google, including the quote marks around
      it, and added the word review. It brought up quite a bit of material,
      though I don't know if there is the kind of formal review that you perhaps
      may be seeking.

      Yours,
      Harold Holmyard

      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jack Kilmon
      ... From: Harold Holmyard Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 10:23 PM To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biblicalist] Common English Bible From: Harold
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 31, 2013
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        -----Original Message-----
        From: Harold Holmyard
        Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 10:23 PM
        To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [biblicalist] Common English Bible

        From: Harold Holmyard <haroldholmyard3@...>
        To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        Cc:
        Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 21:45:51 -0600
        Subject: Re: [biblicalist] CEB reviews?

        Hi, Stephen,

        I've been searching the EBSCO and JSTOR databases for academic reviews of
        > the Common English Bible. To date I've only discovered one, of the New
        > Testament section only, in the Sewanee Theological Journal of 2011. There
        > are, of course, a number of informal reviews on the Web--not what I'm
        > looking for. So are such reviews just not out there yet, or what am I
        > overlooking?
        >

        I put "Common English Bible" into Google, including the quote marks around
        it, and added the word review. It brought up quite a bit of material,
        though I don't know if there is the kind of formal review that you perhaps
        may be seeking.

        Yours,
        Harold Holmyard

        >
        >

        How many times can Hebrew and Greek be translated 10 different ways? What
        is "common English?" The first beatitude, for example, in this translation,
        which must be called a paraphrase, is:
        "Happy are people who are hopeless, because the kingdom of heaven is theirs"
        Another of these weird translations, the Good News Translation, is
        "Happy are those who know they are spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven
        belongs to them"

        I don't know why I went through all that time learning Hebrew, Greek and
        Aramaic. I could just make it up.

        Jack Kilmon
        Houston, TX



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

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      • Harold Holmyard
        Hi, Jack, ... I don t know that these translations are making things up. I assume that when Jesus spoke to his contemporaries, his words and phrases, though
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 1, 2013
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          Hi, Jack,

          > **
          >
          > How many times can Hebrew and Greek be translated 10 different ways? What
          > is "common English?" The first beatitude, for example, in this
          > translation,
          > which must be called a paraphrase, is:
          > "Happy are people who are hopeless, because the kingdom of heaven is
          > theirs"
          > Another of these weird translations, the Good News Translation, is
          > "Happy are those who know they are spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven
          > belongs to them"
          >
          > I don't know why I went through all that time learning Hebrew, Greek and
          > Aramaic. I could just make it up.
          >

          I don't know that these translations are making things up. I assume that
          when Jesus spoke to his contemporaries, his words and phrases, though
          perhaps not the thrust of what he was saying, was readily understandable.
          But even to churched people, the phrase "poor in spirit" may not connote
          much of anything. I am like you in having a preference for a literal
          translation, but I can certainly see how someone might try to capture the
          flavor of the literal Greek and put it in corresponding English. If someone
          researched the phrase and determined that in Greek it implied being
          discouraged or without hope, then I guess "hopeless" would communicate that
          usage. "Spiritually poor" more readily communicates to me than "poor in
          spirit," though I am not absolutely sure of the corrspondence. But with the
          variety of translations, one gets a fuller picture of what the original may
          have meant. As long as each translator is trying to capture what the
          original Greek implied, we can at least give a thoughtful consideration to
          his suggested translation. Knowing the original languages puts you in a
          better position than almost anyone. It may help you to absoutely rule out
          some efforts, whereas someone without that knowledge might not be able to
          pick and choose.

          Yours,
          Harold

          >
          > Jack Kilmon
          > Houston, TX
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... From: Harold Holmyard Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 6:49 AM To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Common English Bible Hi, Jack, ...
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 1, 2013
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            -----Original Message-----
            From: Harold Holmyard
            Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 6:49 AM
            To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Common English Bible

            Hi, Jack,

            > **
            >
            > How many times can Hebrew and Greek be translated 10 different ways? What
            > is "common English?" The first beatitude, for example, in this
            > translation,
            > which must be called a paraphrase, is:
            > "Happy are people who are hopeless, because the kingdom of heaven is
            > theirs"
            > Another of these weird translations, the Good News Translation, is
            > "Happy are those who know they are spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven
            > belongs to them"
            >
            > I don't know why I went through all that time learning Hebrew, Greek and
            > Aramaic. I could just make it up.
            >

            I don't know that these translations are making things up. I assume that
            when Jesus spoke to his contemporaries, his words and phrases, though
            perhaps not the thrust of what he was saying, was readily understandable.
            But even to churched people, the phrase "poor in spirit" may not connote
            much of anything. I am like you in having a preference for a literal
            translation, but I can certainly see how someone might try to capture the
            flavor of the literal Greek and put it in corresponding English. If someone
            researched the phrase and determined that in Greek it implied being
            discouraged or without hope, then I guess "hopeless" would communicate that
            usage. "Spiritually poor" more readily communicates to me than "poor in
            spirit," though I am not absolutely sure of the corrspondence. But with the
            variety of translations, one gets a fuller picture of what the original may
            have meant. As long as each translator is trying to capture what the
            original Greek implied, we can at least give a thoughtful consideration to
            his suggested translation. Knowing the original languages puts you in a
            better position than almost anyone. It may help you to absoutely rule out
            some efforts, whereas someone without that knowledge might not be able to
            pick and choose.

            Yours,
            Harold

            Hi Harold:
            At Matthew 5:3 "in spirit" τῷ πνεύματι, is an insert. The closer Greek
            translation of this Aramaic saying can be found at Luke 6:20 Μακάριοι οἱ
            πτωχοί ὅτι ὑμετέρα ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ <Aramaic> tubaykon liskene
            d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha. There are several clues that suggest this is
            the original vox Iesu. It conforms with Jesus' βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, malkutha
            d'aloha "Kingdom of God" focus, whereas the Matthean version uses βασιλεία
            τῶν οὐρανῶν "Kingdom of HEAVEN." The back translation is "tubaykon miskene
            d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha." "Blessed/fortunate (not "HAPPY") are the
            poor, theirs is the Kingdom of God." Nothing made early scribes happier
            than screwing around with the sources and texts so if there is going to be
            the 500th translation of the NT texts to jump on the best seller band wagon,
            translations of "intent" or "thrust" of Jesus' sayings should, at the very
            least, appeal to the same saying in the other gospels (Luke often being the
            more primitive/original) and intent appealed to the general corpus of Jesus'
            sayings. Getting a feel for what this man was all about and who is audience
            was (the poor and disenfranchised) would help and, as has been my mantra
            since I was 12, an appeal to the actual idiom of Jesus himself. Why this
            gets so much resistance in New Testament scholarship has always been an
            enigma to me and, in my opinion, is academic negligence. This is why I get
            amused when I see really silly paraphrases of Jesus' sayings by translators
            who produce something as bizarre as "Happy are those who know they are
            spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them" or this "Common
            English" rendition.

            Another of many examples for appealing to Aramaic idiom is in John:

            John 4:32 Ἐγὼ βρῶσιν ἔχω φαγεῖν ἣν ὑμεῖς οὐκ οἴδατε
            I have food to eat which you you do
            not know
            John 4:34 Ἐμὸν βρῶμά ἐστιν ἵνα ποιῶ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ
            my food is that I may do the will of
            the one
            πέμψαντός με καὶ τελειώσω αὐτοῦ τὸ ἔργον
            having sent me and may complete his work

            4:32 אית לי מאכולתא
            it li melkutha
            I have FOOD
            דאכול אידא דאנתון לא ידעין אנתון׃
            dekol ayda datton la yad’in tton
            to eat that you do not know about

            4:34 מאכולתי דילי איתיה דאעבד צבינה
            mekulthy dyly itheh de’ebb’ed tsibyaneh
            my FOOD is to do the will of him
            דמן דשׁדרני ואשׁלמיוהי לעבדה׃
            d’man d’shaddrany we’shalmmiwhy la’abadeh
            who sent me and to accomplish his work

            Obviously, Jesus isn’t talking about a hamburger (cheeseburgers wouldn’t be
            kosher).

            Food to eat (knowledge) I have KNOWLEDGE that you do not know about
            My teaching (I am taught) to do the will of Him who sent me and to
            accomplish
            His work.

            In the Aramaic idiom, food and drink represented knowledge and teachings.
            Drinking and eating were listening and learning. The bread and wine were
            Jesus' teachings. If they want to produce the 501st translation, they should
            at least appeal to Common Aramaic idiom first, and then to "common English."

            Jack Kilmon
            Houston, TX

            >
            > Jack Kilmon
            > Houston, TX
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Harold Holmyard
            Hi, Jack, Since you were kind enough to reply to my misspellings, I will respond by saying that I believe there is a good chance t ... [Non-text portions of
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 1, 2013
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              Hi, Jack,

              Since you were kind enough to reply to my misspellings, I will respond by
              saying that I believe there is a good chance t

              >
              >
              > Hi Harold:
              > At Matthew 5:3 "in spirit" τῷ πνεύματι, is an insert. The closer Greek
              > translation of this Aramaic saying can be found at Luke 6:20 Μακάριοι οἱ
              > πτωχοί ὅτι ὑμετέρα ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ tubaykon liskene
              > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha. There are several clues that suggest this is
              > the original vox Iesu. It conforms with Jesus' βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, malkutha
              > d'aloha "Kingdom of God" focus, whereas the Matthean version uses βασιλεία
              > τῶν οὐρανῶν "Kingdom of HEAVEN." The back translation is "tubaykon miskene
              > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha." "Blessed/fortunate (not "HAPPY") are the
              > poor, theirs is the Kingdom of God." Nothing made early scribes happier
              > than screwing around with the sources and texts so if there is going to be
              > the 500th translation of the NT texts to jump on the best seller band
              > wagon,
              > translations of "intent" or "thrust" of Jesus' sayings should, at the very
              > least, appeal to the same saying in the other gospels (Luke often being
              > the
              > more primitive/original) and intent appealed to the general corpus of
              > Jesus'
              > sayings. Getting a feel for what this man was all about and who is
              > audience
              > was (the poor and disenfranchised) would help and, as has been my mantra
              > since I was 12, an appeal to the actual idiom of Jesus himself. Why this
              > gets so much resistance in New Testament scholarship has always been an
              > enigma to me and, in my opinion, is academic negligence. This is why I get
              > amused when I see really silly paraphrases of Jesus' sayings by
              > translators
              > who produce something as bizarre as "Happy are those who know they are
              > spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them" or this "Common
              > English" rendition.
              >
              > Another of many examples for appealing to Aramaic idiom is in John:
              >
              > John 4:32 Ἐγὼ βρῶσιν ἔχω φαγεῖν ἣν ὑμεῖς οὐκ οἴδατε
              > I have food to eat which you you do
              > not know
              > John 4:34 Ἐμὸν βρῶμά ἐστιν ἵνα ποιῶ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ
              > my food is that I may do the will of
              > the one
              > πέμψαντός με καὶ τελειώσω αὐτοῦ τὸ ἔργον
              > having sent me and may complete his work
              >
              > 4:32 אית לי מאכולתא
              > it li melkutha
              > I have FOOD
              > דאכול אידא דאנתון לא ידעין אנתון׃
              > dekol ayda datton la yad’in tton
              > to eat that you do not know about
              >
              > 4:34 מאכולתי דילי איתיה דאעבד צבינה
              > mekulthy dyly itheh de’ebb’ed tsibyaneh
              > my FOOD is to do the will of him
              > דמן דשׁדרני ואשׁלמיוהי לעבדה׃
              > d’man d’shaddrany we’shalmmiwhy la’abadeh
              > who sent me and to accomplish his work
              >
              > Obviously, Jesus isn’t talking about a hamburger (cheeseburgers wouldn’t
              > be
              > kosher).
              >
              > Food to eat (knowledge) I have KNOWLEDGE that you do not know about
              > My teaching (I am taught) to do the will of Him who sent me and to
              > accomplish
              > His work.
              >
              > In the Aramaic idiom, food and drink represented knowledge and teachings.
              > Drinking and eating were listening and learning. The bread and wine were
              > Jesus' teachings. If they want to produce the 501st translation, they
              > should
              > at least appeal to Common Aramaic idiom first, and then to "common
              > English."
              >
              > Jack Kilmon
              > Houston, TX
              >
              >
              > >
              > > Jack Kilmon
              > > Houston, TX
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Harold Holmyard
              Dear Jack, I apologize for hitting something on Gmail to send that last email out too soon. I think there is a good chance that Matthew s sermon on the mount
              Message 6 of 6 , Feb 1, 2013
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                Dear Jack,

                I apologize for hitting something on Gmail to send that last email out too
                soon. I think there is a good chance that Matthew's sermon on the mount is
                a different sermon than Luke's sermon on the plain. Matthew's sermon
                (Matthew 5-7) comes well before the commissioning of the apostles (Matthew
                10), and Luke's sermon (Luke 6) comes right after the selection of the
                twelve apostles. Matthew's is much longer, and there are numerous
                differences between the two. Jesus would have preached many similar
                messages as he went from place to place addressing people who had not heard
                him before. So I don't assume that "in spirit" was a scribal insert. I like
                "food" in John 4 as it is, giving the idea of what fueled Jesus in his
                ministry. I'm sympathetic with you on "blessed" rather than "happy," but
                "happy" is a lexical entry for the word in BDAG, and the lexicon gives
                examples. Most translations use a variant of "blessed: CJB, HCSB, ESV, GWN,
                NASB, NET, NIV, NJB, NLT, NRSV.

                Yours,
                Harold


                >
                > Hi Harold:
                > At Matthew 5:3 "in spirit" τῷ πνεύματι, is an insert. The closer Greek
                > translation of this Aramaic saying can be found at Luke 6:20 Μακάριοι οἱ
                > πτωχοί ὅτι ὑμετέρα ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ tubaykon liskene
                > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha. There are several clues that suggest this is
                > the original vox Iesu. It conforms with Jesus' βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, malkutha
                > d'aloha "Kingdom of God" focus, whereas the Matthean version uses βασιλεία
                > τῶν οὐρανῶν "Kingdom of HEAVEN." The back translation is "tubaykon miskene
                > d'dilkon hy malkutha d'aloha." "Blessed/fortunate (not "HAPPY") are the
                > poor, theirs is the Kingdom of God." Nothing made early scribes happier
                > than screwing around with the sources and texts so if there is going to be
                > the 500th translation of the NT texts to jump on the best seller band
                > wagon,
                > translations of "intent" or "thrust" of Jesus' sayings should, at the very
                > least, appeal to the same saying in the other gospels (Luke often being
                > the
                > more primitive/original) and intent appealed to the general corpus of
                > Jesus'
                > sayings. Getting a feel for what this man was all about and who is
                > audience
                > was (the poor and disenfranchised) would help and, as has been my mantra
                > since I was 12, an appeal to the actual idiom of Jesus himself. Why this
                > gets so much resistance in New Testament scholarship has always been an
                > enigma to me and, in my opinion, is academic negligence. This is why I get
                > amused when I see really silly paraphrases of Jesus' sayings by
                > translators
                > who produce something as bizarre as "Happy are those who know they are
                > spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them" or this "Common
                > English" rendition.
                >
                > Another of many examples for appealing to Aramaic idiom is in John:
                >
                > John 4:32 Ἐγὼ βρῶσιν ἔχω φαγεῖν ἣν ὑμεῖς οὐκ οἴδατε
                > I have food to eat which you you do
                > not know
                > John 4:34 Ἐμὸν βρῶμά ἐστιν ἵνα ποιῶ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ
                > my food is that I may do the will of
                > the one
                > πέμψαντός με καὶ τελειώσω αὐτοῦ τὸ ἔργον
                > having sent me and may complete his work
                >
                > 4:32 אית לי מאכולתא
                > it li melkutha
                > I have FOOD
                > דאכול אידא דאנתון לא ידעין אנתון׃
                > dekol ayda datton la yad’in tton
                > to eat that you do not know about
                >
                > 4:34 מאכולתי דילי איתיה דאעבד צבינה
                > mekulthy dyly itheh de’ebb’ed tsibyaneh
                > my FOOD is to do the will of him
                > דמן דשׁדרני ואשׁלמיוהי לעבדה׃
                > d’man d’shaddrany we’shalmmiwhy la’abadeh
                > who sent me and to accomplish his work
                >
                > Obviously, Jesus isn’t talking about a hamburger (cheeseburgers wouldn’t
                > be
                > kosher).
                >
                > Food to eat (knowledge) I have KNOWLEDGE that you do not know about
                > My teaching (I am taught) to do the will of Him who sent me and to
                > accomplish
                > His work.
                >
                > In the Aramaic idiom, food and drink represented knowledge and teachings.
                > Drinking and eating were listening and learning. The bread and wine were
                > Jesus' teachings. If they want to produce the 501st translation, they
                > should
                > at least appeal to Common Aramaic idiom first, and then to "common
                > English."
                >
                > Jack Kilmon
                > Houston, TX
                >
                >
                > >
                > > Jack Kilmon
                > > Houston, TX
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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