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RE: [biblicalist] Samuel's Spirit

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  • Yigal Levin
    Hi Jerry, I agree with both your comments. I was trying to simplify things, but obviously one will find many variations on the basic beliefs a society that
    Message 1 of 6 , May 12, 2012
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      Hi Jerry,



      I agree with both your comments. I was trying to simplify things, but
      obviously one will find many variations on the basic beliefs a society that
      developed over time as biblical Israel did, and in as large a corpus of
      literature as the Hebrew Bible. Thanks for your clarifications.



      Yigal



      From: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalist@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Jerry Shepherd
      Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 6:40 AM
      To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [biblicalist] Samuel's Spirit





      Yigal,

      Thanks for your reply to Michael. You said pretty much what I was going to
      say myself. Let me, however, make a couple of slight quibbles.

      (1) I do believe there is a case to be made that the inhabitants of Sheol
      are thought of as having some kind of consciousness, however slight it might
      be. Therefore, they are not "completely" dead. I think Qohelet's take on the
      situation in Ecclesiastes 9 is perhaps at an extreme. Passages like Isa 14:9
      and Ezek 32:31 would suggest, however, that there is some kind of
      consciousness; therefore perhaps dormant, but not dead.

      (2) I think your statement that the good die peacefully and the bad die
      painfully is certainly generally true. But there were exceptions, and there
      are complaints made about these actualities and/or possibilities in Gen
      37:36; 44:29, 31; 1 Kgs 2:6; Job 21:13. Perhaps it was these and other
      inequities that prepared the way for the concept for day of judgment when
      the righteous would be finally vindicated.

      Blessings,

      Jerry

      Dr. Jerry E. Shepherd
      Associate Professor of Old Testament
      Taylor Seminary
      11525 - 23 Avenue
      Edmonton, AB T6J 4T3
      CANADA
      Office: (780)431-5250
      Home: (780)434-1164
      Fax: (780)436-9416
      Email: jerry.shepherd@... <mailto:jerry.shepherd%40taylor-edu.ca>
      <mailto:Jerry.shepherd@... <mailto:Jerry.shepherd%40taylor-edu.ca>
      >
      Internet: http://www.taylor-edu.ca
      <https://owa.taylor-edu.ca/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.taylor-edu.c
      a>

      ________________________________

      From: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com> on
      behalf of Yigal Levin
      Sent: Sat 5/12/2012 8:47 PM
      To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [biblicalist] Samuel's Spirit

      Hi Michael,

      As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the text which would indicate that
      Samuel's spirit was anything other than Samuel's spirit. As far as their
      general view of death, from the Bible it would seem that the pre-exilic
      Israelites did not have a concept of a good underworld vs. a bad one. All
      dead souls went to Sheol. Good people lived good lives in this world, and
      went to Sheol peacefully. Bad people went painfully. But once there, they
      were dead. Only God has the power to take a soul out of Sheol if He so
      chooses. Concepts of "Heaven" and "Hell" onky appeared in Judaism during the
      Second Temple Period, and passed from there into Christianity as well.

      Yigal Levin

      From: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
      Behalf Of Michael Welch
      Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 4:39 AM
      To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [biblicalist] Samuel's Spirit

      Dear List Members, Hi!!! When King Saul cannot get any response from Yahweh
      and his prophets, he goes to the Witch of Endor and she brings up Samuel's
      spirit. Is this a demon acting like Samuel or is this Samuel's spirit from
      Sheol. Was the Jewish concept of the realm of the dead like a three part
      underworld where there was a place of punished souls, a place of souls in
      limbo, and a place of rewarded souls? Thank you for any help that you can
      give to me.
      With Much Gratitude,
      Sincerely Yours,
      Michael Welch
      Deltona, Florida

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Welch
      Dear Dr. Levin and Dr. Shepherd, Hi!!! I am just getting back in. Would you say that a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous is first mentioned in
      Message 2 of 6 , May 13, 2012
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        Dear Dr. Levin and Dr. Shepherd, Hi!!! I am just getting back in. Would you say that a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous is first mentioned in Daniel 12:2,3,13? Also from a New Testament perspective has this changed any? I am thinking of the thief on the cross who was told that he would be together with Jesus Christ in Paradise and the Apostle Paul said absent from the body present with the Lord. I too think that Samuel was in his spirit form. Thank you for all of your very helpful, insightful, and useful comments like usual. I really appreciate it.
        With Much Gratitude and Admiration,
        Sincerely Yours,
        Michael Welch
        Deltona, Florida

        --- In biblicalist@yahoogroups.com, Yigal Levin <yigal.levin@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Jerry,

        > I agree with both your comments. I was trying to simplify things, but
        > obviously one will find many variations on the basic beliefs a society that
        > developed over time as biblical Israel did, and in as large a corpus of
        > literature as the Hebrew Bible. Thanks for your clarifications.

        > Yigal

        > Yigal,
        >
        > Thanks for your reply to Michael. You said pretty much what I was going to
        > say myself. Let me, however, make a couple of slight quibbles.
        >
        > (1) I do believe there is a case to be made that the inhabitants of Sheol
        > are thought of as having some kind of consciousness, however slight it might
        > be. Therefore, they are not "completely" dead. I think Qohelet's take on the
        > situation in Ecclesiastes 9 is perhaps at an extreme. Passages like Isa 14:9
        > and Ezek 32:31 would suggest, however, that there is some kind of
        > consciousness; therefore perhaps dormant, but not dead.
        >
        > (2) I think your statement that the good die peacefully and the bad die
        > painfully is certainly generally true. But there were exceptions, and there
        > are complaints made about these actualities and/or possibilities in Gen
        > 37:36; 44:29, 31; 1 Kgs 2:6; Job 21:13. Perhaps it was these and other
        > inequities that prepared the way for the concept for day of judgment when
        > the righteous would be finally vindicated.
        >
        > Blessings,
        >
        > Jerry
        >
        > Dr. Jerry E. Shepherd
        > Associate Professor of Old Testament
        > Taylor Seminary
        > 11525 - 23 Avenue
        > Edmonton, AB T6J 4T3
        > CANADA

        > Hi Michael,
        >
        > As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the text which would indicate that
        > Samuel's spirit was anything other than Samuel's spirit. As far as their
        > general view of death, from the Bible it would seem that the pre-exilic
        > Israelites did not have a concept of a good underworld vs. a bad one. All
        > dead souls went to Sheol. Good people lived good lives in this world, and
        > went to Sheol peacefully. Bad people went painfully. But once there, they
        > were dead. Only God has the power to take a soul out of Sheol if He so
        > chooses. Concepts of "Heaven" and "Hell" onky appeared in Judaism during the
        > Second Temple Period, and passed from there into Christianity as well.
        >
        > Yigal Levin
        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Yigal Levin
        Hi Michael, Yes, the end of Daniel does seem to refer to this concept. Remember that Daniel is often considered to be one of the very latest-written books of
        Message 3 of 6 , May 13, 2012
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          Hi Michael,



          Yes, the end of Daniel does seem to refer to this concept. Remember that
          Daniel is often considered to be one of the very latest-written books of the
          Hebrew Bible, reflecting a mid-Second-Temple period point of view, far
          removed from that of pre-exilic Israel. And the New Testament, of course, is
          even later than that.



          Yigal Levin



          From: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalist@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Michael Welch
          Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 5:23 PM
          To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [biblicalist] Re: Samuel's Spirit





          Dear Dr. Levin and Dr. Shepherd, Hi!!! I am just getting back in. Would you
          say that a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous is first mentioned
          in Daniel 12:2,3,13? Also from a New Testament perspective has this changed
          any? I am thinking of the thief on the cross who was told that he would be
          together with Jesus Christ in Paradise and the Apostle Paul said absent from
          the body present with the Lord. I too think that Samuel was in his spirit
          form. Thank you for all of your very helpful, insightful, and useful
          comments like usual. I really appreciate it.
          With Much Gratitude and Admiration,
          Sincerely Yours,
          Michael Welch
          Deltona, Florida

          --- In biblicalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:biblicalist%40yahoogroups.com> ,
          Yigal Levin <yigal.levin@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Jerry,

          > I agree with both your comments. I was trying to simplify things, but
          > obviously one will find many variations on the basic beliefs a society
          that
          > developed over time as biblical Israel did, and in as large a corpus of
          > literature as the Hebrew Bible. Thanks for your clarifications.

          > Yigal

          > Yigal,
          >
          > Thanks for your reply to Michael. You said pretty much what I was going to
          > say myself. Let me, however, make a couple of slight quibbles.
          >
          > (1) I do believe there is a case to be made that the inhabitants of Sheol
          > are thought of as having some kind of consciousness, however slight it
          might
          > be. Therefore, they are not "completely" dead. I think Qohelet's take on
          the
          > situation in Ecclesiastes 9 is perhaps at an extreme. Passages like Isa
          14:9
          > and Ezek 32:31 would suggest, however, that there is some kind of
          > consciousness; therefore perhaps dormant, but not dead.
          >
          > (2) I think your statement that the good die peacefully and the bad die
          > painfully is certainly generally true. But there were exceptions, and
          there
          > are complaints made about these actualities and/or possibilities in Gen
          > 37:36; 44:29, 31; 1 Kgs 2:6; Job 21:13. Perhaps it was these and other
          > inequities that prepared the way for the concept for day of judgment when
          > the righteous would be finally vindicated.
          >
          > Blessings,
          >
          > Jerry
          >
          > Dr. Jerry E. Shepherd
          > Associate Professor of Old Testament
          > Taylor Seminary
          > 11525 - 23 Avenue
          > Edmonton, AB T6J 4T3
          > CANADA

          > Hi Michael,
          >
          > As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the text which would indicate
          that
          > Samuel's spirit was anything other than Samuel's spirit. As far as their
          > general view of death, from the Bible it would seem that the pre-exilic
          > Israelites did not have a concept of a good underworld vs. a bad one. All
          > dead souls went to Sheol. Good people lived good lives in this world, and
          > went to Sheol peacefully. Bad people went painfully. But once there, they
          > were dead. Only God has the power to take a soul out of Sheol if He so
          > chooses. Concepts of "Heaven" and "Hell" onky appeared in Judaism during
          the
          > Second Temple Period, and passed from there into Christianity as well.
          >
          > Yigal Levin
          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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