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Re: [biblicalist] "Pit" in Exodus 21:33-34

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  • Christopher Heard
    Dear George et al., ... Ancedotal evidence suggests that, in the American south at least, the number of bird dogs named Nimrod greatly exceeds the number of
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 6, 2011
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      Dear George et al.,

      On Apr 6, 2011, at 9:10 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
      > I had subliminally noted the reference to Esau, but mentally substituted Nimrod
      > though even there I thought it was going somewhat beyond the evidence to
      > characterize him as one who hunted for pleasure yet not without some basis.
      >

      Ancedotal evidence suggests that, in the American south at least, the number of bird dogs named "Nimrod" greatly exceeds the number of bird dogs named "Esau." But I think I've gone off-topic.

      Chris
      --
      Christopher Heard
      Associate Professor of Religion
      Pepperdine University
      Malibu, CA 90263-4352
      http://drchris.me



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • George F Somsel
      As I said, I SUBLIMINALLY noted the reference to Esau but substituted Nimrod.  I nevertheless felt a certain dis-ease regarding the reference.  Your post
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 6, 2011
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        As I said, I SUBLIMINALLY noted the reference to Esau but substituted Nimrod.  I
        nevertheless felt a certain dis-ease regarding the reference.  Your post caused
        me to recognize why I was uncomfortable with the reference.

         george
        gfsomsel


        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.


        - Jan Hus
        _________




        ________________________________
        From: Christopher Heard <christopher.heard@...>
        To: "biblicalist@yahoogroups.com" <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 9:36:45 AM
        Subject: Re: [biblicalist] "Pit" in Exodus 21:33-34

         
        Dear George et al.,

        On Apr 6, 2011, at 9:10 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
        > I had subliminally noted the reference to Esau, but mentally substituted Nimrod
        >
        > though even there I thought it was going somewhat beyond the evidence to
        > characterize him as one who hunted for pleasure yet not without some basis.
        >

        Ancedotal evidence suggests that, in the American south at least, the number of
        bird dogs named "Nimrod" greatly exceeds the number of bird dogs named "Esau."
        But I think I've gone off-topic.

        Chris
        --
        Christopher Heard
        Associate Professor of Religion
        Pepperdine University
        Malibu, CA 90263-4352
        http://drchris.me

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Christopher Heard
        Dear George, ... I understood that, George. I was trying to be funny with my comment about the bird dogs. I seem to have failed. This is why I do not make my
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 6, 2011
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          Dear George,

          On Apr 6, 2011, at 9:48 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
          > As I said, I SUBLIMINALLY noted the reference to Esau but substituted Nimrod. I
          > nevertheless felt a certain dis-ease regarding the reference. Your post caused
          > me to recognize why I was uncomfortable with the reference.
          >
          I understood that, George. I was trying to be funny with my comment about the bird dogs. I seem to have failed. This is why I do not make my living as a stand-up comedian.

          To bring this reply almost on-topic, my current research concerns the reception history of Genesis, about as broadly conceived as possible. During the course of that investigation, I've listened to various performance of Sir Edward Elgar's Enigma Variations #9, "Nimrod," about a bazillion times. I simply don't "hear" Nimrod in the music. It's so stately and serene, full of "gravitas"�I don't hear hunting and battle, which is what I generally associate with Nimrod. Any biblicalisters got an idea what I'm missing, or what I'm doing wrong? Should I be thinking more about "kingship"? (I admit to having an unskilled ear and not much training in "reading" classical music. Johnny Cash and Bob Dylan I "get.")

          Chris
          --
          Christopher Heard
          Associate Professor of Religion
          Pepperdine University
          Malibu, CA 90263-4352
          http://drchris.me



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • George F Somsel
          The Enigma Variations of Elgar were impressions of Elgar s friends and a dog.  Nimrod was the dog.  I wouldn t attempt to associate the Nimrod of the Enigma
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 6, 2011
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            The Enigma Variations of Elgar were impressions of Elgar's friends and a dog. 
            Nimrod was the dog.  I wouldn't attempt to associate the Nimrod of the Enigma
            Variations with the biblical Nimrod.

             george
            gfsomsel


            … search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.


            - Jan Hus
            _________




            ________________________________
            From: Christopher Heard <christopher.heard@...>
            To: "biblicalist@yahoogroups.com" <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 10:04:16 AM
            Subject: [biblicalist] Pulling Nimrod out of the pit

            Dear George,

            On Apr 6, 2011, at 9:48 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
            > As I said, I SUBLIMINALLY noted the reference to Esau but substituted Nimrod. 
            >I
            >
            > nevertheless felt a certain dis-ease regarding the reference.  Your post caused
            >
            > me to recognize why I was uncomfortable with the reference.
            >
            I understood that, George. I was trying to be funny with my comment about the
            bird dogs. I seem to have failed. This is why I do not make my living as a
            stand-up comedian.

            To bring this reply almost on-topic, my current research concerns the reception
            history of Genesis, about as broadly conceived as possible. During the course of
            that investigation, I've listened to various performance of Sir Edward Elgar's
            Enigma Variations #9, "Nimrod," about a bazillion times. I simply don't "hear"
            Nimrod in the music. It's so stately and serene, full of "gravitas"—I don't hear
            hunting and battle, which is what I generally associate with Nimrod. Any
            biblicalisters got an idea what I'm missing, or what I'm doing wrong? Should I
            be thinking more about "kingship"? (I admit to having an unskilled ear and not
            much training in "reading" classical music. Johnny Cash and Bob Dylan I "get.")

            Chris
            --
            Christopher Heard
            Associate Professor of Religion
            Pepperdine University
            Malibu, CA 90263-4352
            http://drchris.me



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Revd. Stephen Williams
            Dear Christopher, As a keen Elgarian, brought up just a few hundred yards from where Elgar lived here in the UK, can I say I honestly don t think you are meant
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 6, 2011
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              Dear Christopher,
              As a keen Elgarian, brought up just a few hundred yards from where Elgar
              lived here in the UK, can I say I honestly don't think you are meant to hear
              either hunting or battle in the Enigma variation Elgar titled 'Nimrod'. It
              was not a tone poem in that sense. Rather, each of the Variations was
              intended to capture the character of one of several of the friends of Elgar
              and his wife Alice.

              Variation 9 was no exception. The sounds you hear are meant to capture the
              essence of someone Elgar had huge respect for, whose noble character Elgar
              wanted to enshrine in tribute. It was titled 'Nimrod' because of a
              literary pun. Elgar's main publisher was Novello, and they appointed a young
              man of German extraction, Augustus Jaeger to be the music editor and agent
              who had to liaise on a day-to-day basis with one of their premier composers.

              Elgar loved puns and 'japes' - practical jokes. He was also a man of typical
              Victorian understatement. It was not done to give a piece of music a literal
              title. So, rather than prosaically give the variation the title of his
              "go-between", however indebted he felt to him, instead, he punned on the
              meaning of Augustus' surname in German - Jäger meaning hunter - and showed
              his wide knowledge of the Scriptures by using the cryptic name Nimrod, whom
              he expected those who thought about it to be intelligent and wide-read
              enough to solve the puzzle by remembering the Biblical character was 'a
              mighty HUNTER before the Lord'.

              I hope this helps, and counters the mis-information of another of our
              biblicalist circle who has just chipped in with a quick answer, and whose
              theological expertise is surely better than his musical memory!

              Stephen.
              (One of the Anglican clergy who follows these threads, and a member of the
              Elgar Society).

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Christopher Heard" <christopher.heard@...>
              To: <biblicalist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 6:04 PM
              Subject: [biblicalist] Pulling Nimrod out of the pit


              Dear George,

              On Apr 6, 2011, at 9:48 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
              > As I said, I SUBLIMINALLY noted the reference to Esau but substituted
              > Nimrod. I
              > nevertheless felt a certain dis-ease regarding the reference. Your post
              > caused
              > me to recognize why I was uncomfortable with the reference.
              >
              I understood that, George. I was trying to be funny with my comment about
              the bird dogs. I seem to have failed. This is why I do not make my living as
              a stand-up comedian.

              To bring this reply almost on-topic, my current research concerns the
              reception history of Genesis, about as broadly conceived as possible. During
              the course of that investigation, I've listened to various performance of
              Sir Edward Elgar's Enigma Variations #9, "Nimrod," about a bazillion times.
              I simply don't "hear" Nimrod in the music. It's so stately and serene, full
              of "gravitas"-I don't hear hunting and battle, which is what I generally
              associate with Nimrod. Any biblicalisters got an idea what I'm missing, or
              what I'm doing wrong? Should I be thinking more about "kingship"? (I admit
              to having an unskilled ear and not much training in "reading" classical
              music. Johnny Cash and Bob Dylan I "get.")

              Chris
              --
              Christopher Heard
              Associate Professor of Religion
              Pepperdine University
              Malibu, CA 90263-4352
              http://drchris.me



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Christopher Heard
              Dear Stephen, Thank you for your very enlightening response regarding Elgar. This is one of the occupational hazards of doing reception history or the
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 6, 2011
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                Dear Stephen,

                Thank you for your very enlightening response regarding Elgar.

                This is one of the occupational hazards of doing "reception history" or the "history of influence" (Wirkungsgeschichte): I end up playing in other people's sandboxes, where you know relatively little. One is almost forced into dilettantism when one's assignment is as broad as "the use, influence, and impact of Genesis 1-21 in/on Western culture." One also finds oneself overwhelmed and tending to withdraw from one's online communities as one reads far and wide on these subjects. :-)

                Chris
                --
                Christopher Heard
                Associate Professor of Religion
                Pepperdine University
                Malibu, CA 90263-4352
                http://drchris.me



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Revd. Stephen Williams
                Dear Chris, De nada! Very kind of you to reply. Stephen. PS. Dr Percy Young, in his Elgar O.M. , p.281 tells that Elgar had had a long summer evening talk
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 7, 2011
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                  Dear Chris,
                  De nada!
                  Very kind of you to reply.
                  Stephen.
                  PS. Dr Percy Young, in his Elgar O.M. , p.281 tells that Elgar had had 'a long summer evening talk' with his dear friend, valued advisor, and sternest critic, Jaeger, where Jaeger had spoken eloquently on the slow movements of Beethoven. As a result, Elgar explained, "It will be noticed that the opening bars are made to suggest the slow movement of the Eighth Sonata (the Pathétique)."

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Christopher Heard
                  To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:53 AM
                  Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Pulling Nimrod out of the pit



                  Dear Stephen,

                  Thank you for your very enlightening response regarding Elgar.

                  This is one of the occupational hazards of doing "reception history" or the "history of influence" (Wirkungsgeschichte): I end up playing in other people's sandboxes, where you know relatively little. One is almost forced into dilettantism when one's assignment is as broad as "the use, influence, and impact of Genesis 1-21 in/on Western culture." One also finds oneself overwhelmed and tending to withdraw from one's online communities as one reads far and wide on these subjects. :-)

                  Chris
                  --
                  Christopher Heard
                  Associate Professor of Religion
                  Pepperdine University
                  Malibu, CA 90263-4352
                  http://drchris.me

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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