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Re: Judgment Day and the Rapture

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  • Michael Welch
    Dear Dr./Mr. Kirk, Hi!!! I have to agree with you on your interpretation. I Thank You for taking the time out of your busy day and writing. I Thank You for
    Message 1 of 36 , Oct 8, 2010
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      Dear Dr./Mr. Kirk, Hi!!! I have to agree with you on your interpretation. I Thank You for taking the time out of your busy day and writing. I Thank You for your time.
      With Much Gratitude,
      Sincerely Yours,
      Michael Welch
      Deltona, Florida


      --- In biblicalist@yahoogroups.com, Peter Kirk <peter@...> wrote:
      >
      > Michael asked where this is taught in the Bible, not in the
      > imaginations of various apocalypticists.
      >
      > As far as the rapture is concerned, and if we are thinking of anything
      > like the "secret rapture" idea popularised in the Left Behind books, the
      > short answer is "nowhere". The idea is based on 1 Thessalonians 4:17,
      > but whatever is described there clearly follows the visible return of
      > Christ from heaven to earth in the previous verse. The idea of the
      > "secret rapture", believers being taken away before a special time of
      > Tribulation, was first invented in the 19th century, and popularised by
      > the early Plymouth Brethren such as Darby and Scofield.
      >
      > On 06/10/2010 16:44, Michael Welch wrote:
      > > Dear List Members, Hi!!! I was wondering if any of you have studied the ideas of a judgment day and a rapture being taught in the Bible. I have a good Muslim friend who says that he would be glad to stand next to me on judgment day. What will judgment day be like? Where will it be? What will we be judged for? Is there some rapture out of this judgment? Anything that you can tell me, I will appreciate it greatly.
      > > With Much Gratitude,
      > > Sincerely Yours,
      > > Michael Welch
      > > Deltona, Florida
      >
      > --
      > Peter Kirk
      > E-mail: peter@...
      > Blog: http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/
      > Website: http://www.qaya.org/
      >
    • Larry Wilson
      No biggee. This is the fundamental reason why there are a zillion different religions.  Different interpretations of the same scripture.  I come from a JW
      Message 36 of 36 , Oct 13, 2010
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        No biggee. This is the fundamental reason why there are a zillion different
        religions.  Different interpretations of the same scripture.  I come from a JW
        background so will likely have exception based on my background for lots of
        doctrines common in the rest of Christendom, not that I agree 100% with
        everything the JW teach; in fact, I don't. 


        But it matters not at a "salvation" level.  That's because Christ says he sends
        out "ten slaves" at the beginning of the harvest period during the end times. 
        Clearly that means among different religions.  So it appears that complete
        understanding of every single thing by everyone is not a requirement for
        salvation.

        I reflect on how Christ says he puts "NEW WINE into new wineskins, but not into
        OLD WINESKINS."  So clearly, some groups will know some advanced things and
        others will be spared from those advanced teachings since they would be so
        radical to their basic focus in Christ.  So he permits that level of darkness
        with some, but others have to come into the bright light to accomplish what has
        been assigned to them.


        Thus everywhere, each chosen "flock" or "ministry" has its own focus and own
        purpose, which sometimes means they may share a different specific view on
        certain things.  This does not mean they are rejected.  It's simply not that
        important that every single doctrine be understood by all if their focus and
        "calling" is somewhere else.  They will all in the end come together and these
        issues will be clarified and confirmed after the millennium.  There is no need
        for a confirmation of every teaching before then.  There is not enough time or
        mechanism to do that. 


        So technically, we don't have to agree and it doesn't bother me if you think you
        are the "new wine" and I'm the "old wineskins"; though I would presume, of
        course, visa versa.  :>

        Thanks for sharing your comments.

        LS58

         



        ________________________________
        From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
        To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 1:42:13 PM
        Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Judgment Day and the Rapture

         
        It's a pity you haven't been chosen to understand.
         george
        gfsomsel

        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.

        - Jan Hus
        _________

        ________________________________
        From: Larry Wilson <larsinger58@...>
        To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 11:29:50 AM
        Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Judgment Day and the Rapture

         
        That's how it works.  God chooses whom he wishes to understand the secret things


        but they are not understood by outsiders.  It may seem self-contradictory to you


        but it isn't to me.

        LS

        ________________________________
        From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
        To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 12:51:56 PM
        Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Judgment Day and the Rapture

         
        Again, you ignore the tradition as well as the fact that it is explicitly stated


        that these this are "signed" (σημαίνω), i.e. designated by visual symbols.  You


        choose to take some things very literally yet to understand others as more
        symbolic.  Your understanding is self-contradictory.

         george
        gfsomsel

        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.

        - Jan Hus
        _________

        ________________________________
        From: Larry Wilson <larsinger58@...>
        To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 9:17:56 AM
        Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Judgment Day and the Rapture

         
        It is a literal 1000 years as the Bible says.

        Larry

        ________________________________
        From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
        To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 1:50:49 PM
        Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Judgment Day and the Rapture

         
        Need I remind you that the "millenial" reign in the Apocalypse is depicted as
        the SAINTS RULING ?  It is a depiction of the bliss of the reign of
        the Messiah IN THE CHURCH so that it is not a literal 1000 year period but that
        of each saint who is thereby depicted as living a full and complete life.

         george
        gfsomsel

        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.

        - Jan Hus
        _________

        ________________________________
        From: Larry Wilson <larsinger58@...>
        To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 9:15:47 AM
        Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Judgment Day and the Rapture

         
        Some confuse the first resurrection, which occurs before the millennium as being


        the "rapture" of the saints.  It is not.   Christ must return in the flesh to
        rule in the earth for 1000 years.  How much of a "return" would it be if he were


        not a man again? 

        At any rate, before Christ actually takes up flesh again, which is through the
        agency of "Lazarus" one of his followers, he must raise the dead in Christ
        FIRST.  These are raised up per 1 Cor 15 into "corrupt", "dishonorable",
        "physical" bodies.  That is, like seeds they are implanted into imperfect
        bodies.  But these are not dead bodies, but the living bodies of the saints
        alive today.  Thus they "share" the body of someone alive today.  But don't
        worry, as 1 Cor 15:38 says:  "but God gives it a body just as it has pleased
        him, and to each of the seeds its own body."  So each "seed" or resurrected one
        has their own individual body.
         
        It sounds sci-fi but it is quite practical because (1) it makes the first
        resurrection totally invisible to the world before the second coming which
        occurred in 1992, and (2) it means there is zero time for orientation to the new


        modern world.  Think of how much time for them and others it would take to teach


        them modern languages and get them caught up on world history since their
        death?  Not to mention needing to be taken care of, which would expose the
        secret elect!  This way, they share the knowledge of a modern person as well as
        hide out in their body.
         
        But this establishes the FIRST PHASE of the 1st resurrection, which is being
        sown first in a corrupt body, a physical body.  It is AFTER this that they are
        then changed into an incorrupt body.   Two phases:  As verse 46 says: 
        "Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is
        physical, afterward that which is spiritual."
         
        So first the elect become flesh again and rule with Christ for 1000 years and
        then are judges during Judgment Day.  Then when death is no more, then is when
        they along with those alive when Christ arrives are changed into spiritual
        bodies.  
         
        So the "rapture" is not only definitely after the millennium and Judgment Day,
        it is also not the 1st resurrection, when Christ descends from heaven before the


        second coming and calls forth the dead elect.   This also is not technically
        the "second coming" since that event is when Christ himself, after raising the
        dead and placing them into "foster bodies" of the elect who are living ones,
        himself takes up a foster body in the flesh, the body of Lazarus, who is a
        descendant of the tribe of Joseph.  Christ appears in a body through the tribe
        of Judah the first time and then through Joseph the second time, etc.
         
        Anyway, some people confuse when Christ comes to raise the elect with the
        rapture, but these are two distinct events, separated by over 1000 years.
         
        Larry 

        ________________________________
        From: funhistory <yahoo_biblical-studies@...>
        To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 9:57:04 AM
        Subject: [biblicalist] Re: Judgment Day and the Rapture

         

        > Michael asked where this is taught in the Bible, not in the
        > imaginations of various apocalypticists.

        It's funny that the topic is so controversial that we can't even agree on which
        question is being asked!

        > As far as the rapture is concerned, and if we are thinking of
        > anything like the "secret rapture" idea popularised in the Left
        > Behind books, the short answer is "nowhere". The idea is based
        > on 1 Thessalonians 4:17...

        Don't Mat 24:40-42, Luke 17:34-36, 1Cor 15:51-52, & Rev 4:1-2 also factor in?

        > whatever is described there clearly follows the visible return
        > of Christ from heaven to earth in the previous verse.
        > Peter Kirk

        It doesn't say anything about Him being visible, so your "clearly" seems a bit
        imaginative. The rapture isn't necessarily followed by Christ's immediate return


        to Earth. Rapture, wrath, return (details in Rev 4-19), judgment (Rev 20), new
        world (Rev 21-22).

        G.M. Grena
        www.LMLK.org

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