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Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?

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  • Regan (Lukeion)
    Kevin, glad to share my experience with classical textbooks . but my apologies for the lengthy post. George, thanks for your comment as well. I, too, prefer
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 11, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Kevin, glad to share my experience with classical textbooks . but my
      apologies for the lengthy post.



      George, thanks for your comment as well. I, too, prefer to start with
      Classical Greek. After finishing my M.Div. in NT, even being a TA in
      graduate level Greek, I thought I was doing pretty well - and then I entered
      my first semester in my doctoral program at the University of Cincinnati and
      discovered I was playing catch-up with the Classical Greek students.



      Forgive me if I start with a bit of background that will help you understand
      my textbook selection - I teach upper-level high school, adult and gifted
      learners using college texts. To insure an appropriate pace, I have my
      students take the National Greek Exam each March, and so far 80% have taken
      honors. When they first begin, my students are motivated - they aren't in
      any program that requires them to take Greek; they take it because they want
      to. But if they don't love it and feel like they're making progress, they
      can easily walk away. I would say that probably 75% of my students are
      taking Greek with the ultimate goal of reading the New Testament, even
      though I teach Attic Greek.



      Several years ago, after much comparison and hand-wringing, I decided to use
      Oxford's "Athenaze," 2nd ed. by Balme and Lawall, books I & II. I take a
      year to teach each book, completing the grammar in 2 years. This is a text
      that seems to elicit strong feelings, whether pro or con. I've grown to
      truly enjoy and appreciate it. I understand that the first edition (which I
      never used) was panned as being too light on grammar so the 2nd edition
      corrected that. A translation section (including examples of the new
      grammar) begins each chapter, followed by the new grammatical principles and
      exercises. The translation portion of each chapter is a connected narrative
      that follows a fictional family living in the 430's BC, that moment in time
      when the Peloponnesian War is about to break out. The continuous story-line
      allows the authors to include a mice mix of Greek culture, some geography,
      some mythology, and adapted versions of Herodotus and Thucydides. In
      addition to the major translation passages (which get longer as the course
      progresses) and exercises, nearly every chapter includes shorter passages
      from "Greek Wisdom," "Classical Greek," and "New Testament Greek." These
      are all glossed so that they do not have to be adapted, familiarizing the
      student with "real" Greek from the very beginning of the course.



      As a great reference, however, I LOVE Mastronarde's "Introduction to Attic
      Greek." I don't use it as my student text because I think it's too dry, but
      I consult it before nearly every session with my advanced students. I find
      it to have concise, yet in-depth discussions of the grammar that get right
      to the heart of things.



      When I was first searching I checked out others, like Crosby and Schaefer,
      Cambridge's "Reading Greek," and others but thought that "Athenaze" provided
      solid grammar, systematic coverage, was easy to follow OR use as a reference
      (unlike "Reading Greek"), and would hold interest.



      To be honest, I'm looking at NT textbooks because it may be (sadly) a
      financial necessity. We fill up three Latin 1 classes (and turn students
      away), and have packed sessions of Latin 2 and 3/4, but I struggle to get
      students into a single Classical Greek class. Our feedback suggests that
      some students who would be interested in a NT Greek course are intimidated
      by an Attic Greek course. I suspect I'd have to abandon the National Greek
      Exam ...





      Regan Barr

      <mailto:regan@...> regan@...

      The Lukeion Project



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Revd. Stephen Williams
      To be honest, I m looking at NT textbooks because it may be (sadly) a financial necessity....Our feedback suggests that some students who would be interested
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 11, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        "To be honest, I'm looking at NT textbooks because it may be (sadly) a
        financial necessity....Our feedback suggests that
        some students who would be interested in a NT Greek course are intimidated
        by an Attic Greek course. I suspect I'd have to abandon the National Greek..."

        It's along time since I was taken through NT Greek, but I noticed not long ago that the textbook we used then has been released for a modern age as
        The Elements of New Testament Greek Paperback and Audio CD Pack (Paperback) by Jeremy Duff (Author), Jonathan T. Pennington (Author), David Wenham (Author).

        Would this be too basic for you?

        An Amazon link is added below.

        http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elements-Testament-Greek-Paperback-Audio/dp/0521670802/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257958216&sr=1-2

        Stephen.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Regan (Lukeion)
        To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:30 PM
        Subject: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?



        Kevin, glad to share my experience with classical textbooks . but my
        apologies for the lengthy post.

        George, thanks for your comment as well. I, too, prefer to start with
        Classical Greek. After finishing my M.Div. in NT, even being a TA in
        graduate level Greek, I thought I was doing pretty well - and then I entered
        my first semester in my doctoral program at the University of Cincinnati and
        discovered I was playing catch-up with the Classical Greek students.

        Forgive me if I start with a bit of background that will help you understand
        my textbook selection - I teach upper-level high school, adult and gifted
        learners using college texts. To insure an appropriate pace, I have my
        students take the National Greek Exam each March, and so far 80% have taken
        honors. When they first begin, my students are motivated - they aren't in
        any program that requires them to take Greek; they take it because they want
        to. But if they don't love it and feel like they're making progress, they
        can easily walk away. I would say that probably 75% of my students are
        taking Greek with the ultimate goal of reading the New Testament, even
        though I teach Attic Greek.

        Several years ago, after much comparison and hand-wringing, I decided to use
        Oxford's "Athenaze," 2nd ed. by Balme and Lawall, books I & II. I take a
        year to teach each book, completing the grammar in 2 years. This is a text
        that seems to elicit strong feelings, whether pro or con. I've grown to
        truly enjoy and appreciate it. I understand that the first edition (which I
        never used) was panned as being too light on grammar so the 2nd edition
        corrected that. A translation section (including examples of the new
        grammar) begins each chapter, followed by the new grammatical principles and
        exercises. The translation portion of each chapter is a connected narrative
        that follows a fictional family living in the 430's BC, that moment in time
        when the Peloponnesian War is about to break out. The continuous story-line
        allows the authors to include a mice mix of Greek culture, some geography,
        some mythology, and adapted versions of Herodotus and Thucydides. In
        addition to the major translation passages (which get longer as the course
        progresses) and exercises, nearly every chapter includes shorter passages
        from "Greek Wisdom," "Classical Greek," and "New Testament Greek." These
        are all glossed so that they do not have to be adapted, familiarizing the
        student with "real" Greek from the very beginning of the course.

        As a great reference, however, I LOVE Mastronarde's "Introduction to Attic
        Greek." I don't use it as my student text because I think it's too dry, but
        I consult it before nearly every session with my advanced students. I find
        it to have concise, yet in-depth discussions of the grammar that get right
        to the heart of things.

        When I was first searching I checked out others, like Crosby and Schaefer,
        Cambridge's "Reading Greek," and others but thought that "Athenaze" provided
        solid grammar, systematic coverage, was easy to follow OR use as a reference
        (unlike "Reading Greek"), and would hold interest.

        To be honest, I'm looking at NT textbooks because it may be (sadly) a
        financial necessity. We fill up three Latin 1 classes (and turn students
        away), and have packed sessions of Latin 2 and 3/4, but I struggle to get
        students into a single Classical Greek class. Our feedback suggests that
        some students who would be interested in a NT Greek course are intimidated
        by an Attic Greek course. I suspect I'd have to abandon the National Greek
        Exam ...

        Regan Barr

        <mailto:regan@...> regan@...

        The Lukeion Project

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • George F Somsel
        I haven t seen this myself, but I ve heard some good things about it.  george gfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 11, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          I haven't seen this myself, but I've heard some good things about it.
           george
          gfsomsel


          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________




          ________________________________
          From: Revd. Stephen Williams <sjw@...>
          To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 10:00:35 AM
          Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?

           
          "To be honest, I'm looking at NT textbooks because it may be (sadly) a
          financial necessity... .Our feedback suggests that
          some students who would be interested in a NT Greek course are intimidated
          by an Attic Greek course. I suspect I'd have to abandon the National Greek..."

          It's along time since I was taken through NT Greek, but I noticed not long ago that the textbook we used then has been released for a modern age as
          The Elements of New Testament Greek Paperback and Audio CD Pack (Paperback) by Jeremy Duff (Author), Jonathan T. Pennington (Author), David Wenham (Author).

          Would this be too basic for you?

          An Amazon link is added below.

          http://www.amazon co.uk/Elements- Testament- Greek-Paperback- Audio/dp/ 0521670802/ ref=sr_1_ 2?ie=UTF8& s=books&qid= 1257958216& sr=1-2

          Stephen.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Regan (Lukeion)
          To: biblicalist@ yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:30 PM
          Subject: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?

          Kevin, glad to share my experience with classical textbooks . but my
          apologies for the lengthy post.

          George, thanks for your comment as well. I, too, prefer to start with
          Classical Greek. After finishing my M.Div. in NT, even being a TA in
          graduate level Greek, I thought I was doing pretty well - and then I entered
          my first semester in my doctoral program at the University of Cincinnati and
          discovered I was playing catch-up with the Classical Greek students.

          Forgive me if I start with a bit of background that will help you understand
          my textbook selection - I teach upper-level high school, adult and gifted
          learners using college texts. To insure an appropriate pace, I have my
          students take the National Greek Exam each March, and so far 80% have taken
          honors. When they first begin, my students are motivated - they aren't in
          any program that requires them to take Greek; they take it because they want
          to. But if they don't love it and feel like they're making progress, they
          can easily walk away. I would say that probably 75% of my students are
          taking Greek with the ultimate goal of reading the New Testament, even
          though I teach Attic Greek.

          Several years ago, after much comparison and hand-wringing, I decided to use
          Oxford's "Athenaze," 2nd ed. by Balme and Lawall, books I & II. I take a
          year to teach each book, completing the grammar in 2 years. This is a text
          that seems to elicit strong feelings, whether pro or con. I've grown to
          truly enjoy and appreciate it. I understand that the first edition (which I
          never used) was panned as being too light on grammar so the 2nd edition
          corrected that. A translation section (including examples of the new
          grammar) begins each chapter, followed by the new grammatical principles and
          exercises. The translation portion of each chapter is a connected narrative
          that follows a fictional family living in the 430's BC, that moment in time
          when the Peloponnesian War is about to break out. The continuous story-line
          allows the authors to include a mice mix of Greek culture, some geography,
          some mythology, and adapted versions of Herodotus and Thucydides. In
          addition to the major translation passages (which get longer as the course
          progresses) and exercises, nearly every chapter includes shorter passages
          from "Greek Wisdom," "Classical Greek," and "New Testament Greek." These
          are all glossed so that they do not have to be adapted, familiarizing the
          student with "real" Greek from the very beginning of the course.

          As a great reference, however, I LOVE Mastronarde' s "Introduction to Attic
          Greek." I don't use it as my student text because I think it's too dry, but
          I consult it before nearly every session with my advanced students. I find
          it to have concise, yet in-depth discussions of the grammar that get right
          to the heart of things.

          When I was first searching I checked out others, like Crosby and Schaefer,
          Cambridge's "Reading Greek," and others but thought that "Athenaze" provided
          solid grammar, systematic coverage, was easy to follow OR use as a reference
          (unlike "Reading Greek"), and would hold interest.

          To be honest, I'm looking at NT textbooks because it may be (sadly) a
          financial necessity. We fill up three Latin 1 classes (and turn students
          away), and have packed sessions of Latin 2 and 3/4, but I struggle to get
          students into a single Classical Greek class. Our feedback suggests that
          some students who would be interested in a NT Greek course are intimidated
          by an Attic Greek course. I suspect I'd have to abandon the National Greek
          Exam ...

          Regan Barr

          <mailto:regan@lukeion. org> regan@lukeion. org

          The Lukeion Project

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • James Spinti
          Concerning Duff/Wenham: I have a copy and have looked through it a bit. The one thing some might find disconcerting (and others will like) is that it ignores
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 11, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Concerning Duff/Wenham: I have a copy and have looked through it a bit. The one thing some might find disconcerting (and others will like) is that it ignores accents entirely. Other than that, it is a pretty standard, non-inductive type first-year grammar. Also, beware that the US version does not necessarily include the CD (voice of experience here).

            Avoid Machen! I had to tutor out of that once; it was a nightmare. The sooner you can get students into "real" Greek, the better, which is why the Athenaze and Reading Greek series are so good. I wish there were something like that for NT Greek. Well, there was/is--Funk which is available on-line, I believe.

            Interesting that you prefer the Athenaze over the Reading Greek approach. But, I have heard that the Athenaze works better with High School than the Reading Greek does.

            James

            ________________________________
            James Spinti
            Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
            Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
            Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
            jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
            Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
            Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
            Fax: 574-269-6788

            -----Original Message-----
            From: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
            Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:15 PM
            To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?

            I haven't seen this myself, but I've heard some good things about it.
             george
            gfsomsel


            ... search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.


            - Jan Hus
            _________




            ________________________________
            From: Revd. Stephen Williams <sjw@...>
            To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 10:00:35 AM
            Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?

             
            "To be honest, I'm looking at NT textbooks because it may be (sadly) a
            financial necessity... .Our feedback suggests that
            some students who would be interested in a NT Greek course are intimidated
            by an Attic Greek course. I suspect I'd have to abandon the National Greek..."

            It's along time since I was taken through NT Greek, but I noticed not long ago that the textbook we used then has been released for a modern age as
            The Elements of New Testament Greek Paperback and Audio CD Pack (Paperback) by Jeremy Duff (Author), Jonathan T. Pennington (Author), David Wenham (Author).
            <snip>
          • Stephen Lord
            In terms of texts that take the grammar approach over immersion, Duff compares favorably to other first year Greek grammars.  As noted, ignores accents. 
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 11, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              In terms of texts that take the grammar approach over immersion, Duff compares favorably to other first year Greek grammars.  As noted, ignores accents.  Also inverts order of cases from most American grammars, no big deal there.

              Main drawback is cost.  Has some online aids, but not much.

              Mounce has a wealth of extra materials in print, CD and online.

              David Black's Learn to Read New Testament Greek is basic, but sound, and not near as spendy as the others.  Broadman and Holman is trying to play catch-up with Zondervan in terms of offering additional products related to the grammar, such as a workbook.

              Haven't seen the new edition of Hewett's New Testament Greek (a beginning and intermediate grammar).  Comes with a CD.

              Sadly, there is nothing, as yet, quite like Athenaze for Koine. 

              Croy's strength is "real" Greek sentences from the LXX, NT, and other sources.

              Respectfully,

              Stephen C. Lord

              --- On Wed, 11/11/09, James Spinti <jspinti@...> wrote:

              From: James Spinti <jspinti@...>
              Subject: RE: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?
              To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 5:29 PM







               









              Concerning Duff/Wenham: I have a copy and have looked through it a bit. The one thing some might find disconcerting (and others will like) is that it ignores accents entirely. Other than that, it is a pretty standard, non-inductive type first-year grammar. Also, beware that the US version does not necessarily include the CD (voice of experience here).



              Avoid Machen! I had to tutor out of that once; it was a nightmare. The sooner you can get students into "real" Greek, the better, which is why the Athenaze and Reading Greek series are so good. I wish there were something like that for NT Greek. Well, there was/is--Funk which is available on-line, I believe.



              Interesting that you prefer the Athenaze over the Reading Greek approach. But, I have heard that the Athenaze works better with High School than the Reading Greek does.



              James



              ____________ _________ _________ __

              James Spinti

              Marketing Director, Book Sales Division

              Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years

              Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies

              jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com

              Web: http://www.eisenbra uns.com

              Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226

              Fax: 574-269-6788



              -----Original Message-----

              From: biblicalist@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:biblicalist@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel

              Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:15 PM

              To: biblicalist@ yahoogroups. com

              Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?



              I haven't seen this myself, but I've heard some good things about it.

               george

              gfsomsel



              ... search for truth, hear truth,

              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,

              defend the truth till death.



              - Jan Hus

              _________



              ____________ _________ _________ __

              From: Revd. Stephen Williams <sjw@harlingtonchurc h.org.uk>

              To: biblicalist@ yahoogroups. com

              Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 10:00:35 AM

              Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?



               

              "To be honest, I'm looking at NT textbooks because it may be (sadly) a

              financial necessity... .Our feedback suggests that

              some students who would be interested in a NT Greek course are intimidated

              by an Attic Greek course. I suspect I'd have to abandon the National Greek..."



              It's along time since I was taken through NT Greek, but I noticed not long ago that the textbook we used then has been released for a modern age as

              The Elements of New Testament Greek Paperback and Audio CD Pack (Paperback) by Jeremy Duff (Author), Jonathan T. Pennington (Author), David Wenham (Author).

              <snip>




















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James Spinti
              Yes, I had forgotten to mention that Duff uses the standard British ordering of the cases, not the North American way :) I have Hewett sitting on a shelf at
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 11, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes, I had forgotten to mention that Duff uses the standard British ordering of the cases, not the North American way :)

                I have Hewett sitting on a shelf at home, waiting for me to look at it. Sadly, I haven't yet done more than open it, but it looks fairly traditional.

                As was noted by George, by all means check the b-greek archive. This topic comes up there about once a quarter.

                James

                ________________________________
                James Spinti
                Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
                Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                Fax: 574-269-6788

                -----Original Message-----
                From: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Lord
                Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:26 PM
                To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?

                In terms of texts that take the grammar approach over immersion, Duff compares favorably to other first year Greek grammars.  As noted, ignores accents.  Also inverts order of cases from most American grammars, no big deal there.

                Main drawback is cost.  Has some online aids, but not much.

                Mounce has a wealth of extra materials in print, CD and online.

                David Black's Learn to Read New Testament Greek is basic, but sound, and not near as spendy as the others.  Broadman and Holman is trying to play catch-up with Zondervan in terms of offering additional products related to the grammar, such as a workbook.

                Haven't seen the new edition of Hewett's New Testament Greek (a beginning and intermediate grammar).  Comes with a CD.

                Sadly, there is nothing, as yet, quite like Athenaze for Koine. 

                Croy's strength is "real" Greek sentences from the LXX, NT, and other sources.

                Respectfully,

                Stephen C. Lord

                --- On Wed, 11/11/09, James Spinti <jspinti@...> wrote:

                From: James Spinti <jspinti@...>
                Subject: RE: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?
                To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 5:29 PM







                 









                Concerning Duff/Wenham: I have a copy and have looked through it a bit. The one thing some might find disconcerting (and others will like) is that it ignores accents entirely. Other than that, it is a pretty standard, non-inductive type first-year grammar. Also, beware that the US version does not necessarily include the CD (voice of experience here).



                Avoid Machen! I had to tutor out of that once; it was a nightmare. The sooner you can get students into "real" Greek, the better, which is why the Athenaze and Reading Greek series are so good. I wish there were something like that for NT Greek. Well, there was/is--Funk which is available on-line, I believe.



                Interesting that you prefer the Athenaze over the Reading Greek approach. But, I have heard that the Athenaze works better with High School than the Reading Greek does.



                James



                ____________ _________ _________ __

                James Spinti

                Marketing Director, Book Sales Division

                Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years

                Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies

                jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com

                Web: http://www.eisenbra uns.com

                Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226

                Fax: 574-269-6788



                -----Original Message-----

                From: biblicalist@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:biblicalist@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel

                Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:15 PM

                To: biblicalist@ yahoogroups. com

                Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?



                I haven't seen this myself, but I've heard some good things about it.

                 george

                gfsomsel



                ... search for truth, hear truth,

                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,

                defend the truth till death.



                - Jan Hus

                _________



                ____________ _________ _________ __

                From: Revd. Stephen Williams <sjw@harlingtonchurc h.org.uk>

                To: biblicalist@ yahoogroups. com

                Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 10:00:35 AM

                Subject: Re: [biblicalist] Re: Preference for NT Greek textbook?



                 

                "To be honest, I'm looking at NT textbooks because it may be (sadly) a

                financial necessity... .Our feedback suggests that

                some students who would be interested in a NT Greek course are intimidated

                by an Attic Greek course. I suspect I'd have to abandon the National Greek..."



                It's along time since I was taken through NT Greek, but I noticed not long ago that the textbook we used then has been released for a modern age as

                The Elements of New Testament Greek Paperback and Audio CD Pack (Paperback) by Jeremy Duff (Author), Jonathan T. Pennington (Author), David Wenham (Author).

                <snip>




















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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