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Isaiah servant songs

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  • Bob MacDonald
    Re Isaiah 50:4 – who is speaking If we hear this verse how might it apply to the ‘servant’, to Israel, to the prophet, to Christ, to self? Lord
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 26, 2009
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      Re Isaiah 50:4 – who is speaking



      If we hear this verse how might it apply to the ‘servant’, to Israel, to the prophet, to Christ, to self?



      Lord יְהֹוִה has given me a tongue of one who is taught
      so I may know how to assist the weary with a word
      he wakens morning by morning
      he wakens for me an ear of one who is taught



      I ask because this verse has meant a lot to me personally and I am supposed to say something of that tomorrow night at a Bible study. I am trying to stay away from my usual approach which everyone thinks is too scholarly – you real scholars should have a laugh at that.



      I understood this list was supposed to help in situations like this – and I am wondering if anyone has thoughts – or a good pointer



      Please respond here or on my blog http://stenagmois.blogspot.com/2009/04/isaiah-504.html



      thanks



      Bob



      Bob MacDonald

      Victoria BC

      http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com

      http://stbarnabasvictoria.blogspot.com







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jim Hopkins
      Hi Bob, Barnes thinks it is Messianic and states: Isa 50:4 The Lord God hath given me - This verse commences a new subject, and the deliverer is directly
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 26, 2009
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        Hi Bob,

        Barnes thinks it is Messianic and states:

        Isa 50:4
        The Lord God hath given me - This verse commences a new subject, and the
        deliverer is directly introduced as himself speaking. The reasons why
        this is supposed to refer to the Messiah, have been given in the
        analysis to the chapter. Those reasons will be strengthened by the
        examination of the particular expressions in the passage, and by
        showing, as we proceed in the exposition, in what way they are
        applicable to him. It will be assumed that the reference is to the
        Messiah; and we shall find that it is a most beautiful description of
        his character, and of some of the principal events of his life. This
        verse is designed to state how he was suited for the special work to
        which he was called. The whole endowment is traced to Yahweh. It was he
        who had called him; he who had given him the tongue of the learned, and
        he who had carefully and attentively qualified him for his work.
        The tongue of the learned - Hebrew, ‘The tongue of those who are
        instructed;’ that is, of the eloquent; or the tongue of instruction
        (παιδείας paideias, Septuagint); that is, he has qualified me to
        instruct others. It does not mean human science or learning; nor does it
        mean that any other had been qualified as he was, or that there were any
        others who were learned like him. But it means that on the subject of
        religion he was eminently endowed with intelligence, and with eloquence.
        In regard to the Redeemer’s power of instruction, the discourses which
        he delivered, as recorded in the New Testament, and especially his
        sermon on the mount, may be referred to. None on the subject of religion
        ever spake like him; none was ever so well qualified to instruct mankind
        (compare Mat_13:54).
        That I should know how to speak a word in season - The Hebrew here is,
        ‘That I might know how to strengthen with a word the weary;’ that is,
        that he might sustain, comfort, and refresh them by his promises and his
        counsels. How eminently he was suited to alleviate those who were heavy
        laden with sin and to comfort those who were burdened with calamities
        and trials, may be seen by the slightest reference to the New Testament,
        and the most partial acquaintance with his instructions and his life.
        The weary here are those who are burdened with a sense of guilt; who
        feel that they have no strength to bear up under the mighty load, and
        who therefore seek relief (see Mat_11:28).
        He wakeneth morning by morning - That is, he wakens me every morning
        early. The language is taken from an instructor who awakens his pupils
        early, in order that they may receive instruction. The idea is, that the
        Redeemer would be eminently endowed, under the divine instruction and
        guidance, for his work. He would be one who was, so to speak, in the
        school of God; and who would be qualified to impart instruction to others.
        He wakeneth mine ear - To awaken the ear is to prepare one to receive
        instruction. The expressions, to open the ear, to uncover the ear, to
        awaken the ear, often occur in the Scriptures, in the sense of preparing
        to receive instruction, or of disposing to receive divine
        communications. The sense here is plain. The Messiah would be taught of
        God, and would be inclined to receive all that he imparted.
        To hear as the learned - Many translate the phrase here ‘as disciples,’
        that is, as those who are learning. So Lowth; ‘With the attention of a
        learner.’ So Noyes; ‘In the manner of a disciple.’ The Septuagint
        renders it, ‘He has given me an ear to hear.’ The idea is, probably,
        that he was attentive as they are who wish to learn; that is, as docile
        disciples. The figure is taken from a master who in the morning summons
        his pupils around him, and imparts instruction to them. And the doctrine
        which is taught is, that the Messiah would be eminently qualified, by
        divine teaching, to be the instructor of mankind. The Chaldee
        paraphrases this, ‘Morning by morning, he anticipates (the dawn), that
        he may send his prophets, if perhaps they my open the ears of sinners,
        and receive instruction.’

        Gill says,

        Isa 50:4 The Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned,....
        These are not the words of the prophet, as Aben Ezra, Kimchi, and others
        think; though what is here said is applicable to ministers of the word,
        who have to do with weary souls, and it is their work to comfort and
        refresh them; and which work requires knowledge and experience of their
        case, a good degree of elocution to speak aptly and with propriety, even
        to have the tongue of the learned, especially in a spiritual sense; as
        such have who have learned of the Father, and have been taught by the
        Spirit of God, and are well versed in the Scriptures, and can speak in
        the taught words of the Holy Ghost, comparing spiritual things with
        spiritual; and they have need of great prudence to time things right, to
        speak fitly and opportunely, and give to each their portion in due
        season, to whom they minister; and also great diligence and assiduity in
        prayer, reading, and meditation; and such as are teachers of others must
        be the Lord's hearers, and should be very diligent and attentive ones;
        all which are gifts from the Lord, and to be ascribed to him. But the
        words are to be understood of Christ, the same person that is speaking
        in the preceding verses; who being anointed by the Spirit of the Lord
        God, as man, whose gifts and graces he received without measure, he was
        abundantly qualified for the discharge of his prophetic office; and was
        capable of speaking as never man did, and with such power and authority
        as the Scribes and Pharisees did not, and with so much wisdom and
        eloquence as were surprising to all that heard him; he had the Spirit of
        wisdom on him, and the treasures of wisdom and knowledge hid in him:

        that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary;
        not only saints, weary with sin, their own and others, and with troubles
        from the world, from Satan, and by afflictive providences; but sinners
        under first awakenings, distressed and uneasy in their minds at a sight
        of sin, in its exceeding sinfulness; pressed with the guilt of it,
        filled with a sense of divine wrath on account of it, and terrified with
        the thoughts of death, and a future judgment; and are weary with
        labouring for bread which satisfies not, for righteousness and life, and
        in seeking for resting places, being in want of spiritual rest, peace,
        and comfort; and who are hungry and thirsting after righteousness, after
        pardoning grace and mercy, after Christ and salvation by him, after his
        word and ordinances, after communion with him, and conformity to him;
        who are weak and without strength, and ready to faint for want of
        refreshment. The word for "weary" signifies "thirsty", according to
        Jarchi, Kimchi, and Ben Melech; who explain it of persons that thirst
        after hearing the word of the Lord: the Targum is,

        "to know how to teach the righteous that weary themselves at the words
        of the law;''

        or, as some render it, that pant after the words of the law: but not the
        law, but the Gospel, is "the word in season", to be spoken to weary
        souls; which proclaims pardon, preaches peace, is the word of
        righteousness and salvation; which directs hungry and thirsty souls to
        Christ, as the bread and water of life, and invites weary ones to him
        for rest. That word of his, Mat_11:28 is a word in season to such
        persons: such a word Christ spoke when he was here on earth in his own
        person, and now speaks by his ministers in the preaching of the Gospel,
        and by his Spirit applying it to his people.

        He wakeneth morning by morning; one after another continually, meaning
        himself; the allusion is to masters calling their scholars early to
        their studies; the morning being the fittest season for instruction and
        learning.

        He wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned; who hear attentively, and
        with great pleasure and profit. This and the preceding clause seem to
        denote both the earliness in which Christ entered on his prophetic
        office, and his attentiveness in hearkening to all that was said in the
        eternal council and covenant by his divine Father; which he, as the
        Prophet of his church, makes known unto his people, Joh_15:15.

        Matthew Henry thinks it speaks of the prophet Isaiah.

        Isa 50:4-9
        Our Lord Jesus, having proved himself able to save, here shows himself
        as willing as he is able to save, here shows himself as willing as he is
        able. We suppose the prophet Isaiah to say something of himself in these
        verses, engaging and encouraging himself to go on in his work as a
        prophet, notwithstanding the many hardships he met with, not doubting
        but that God would stand by him and strengthen him; but, like David, he
        speaks of himself as a type of Christ, who is here prophesied of and
        promised to be the Saviour.
        I. As an acceptable preacher. Isaiah, a a prophet, was qualified for the
        work to which he was called, so were the rest of God's prophets, and
        others whom he employed as his messengers; but Christ was anointed with
        the Spirit above his fellows. To make the man of God perfect, he has, 1.
        The tongue of the learned, to know how to give instruction, how to speak
        a word in season to him that is weary, Isa_50:4. God, who made man's
        mouth, gave Moses the tongue of the learned, to speak for the terror and
        conviction of Pharaoh, Exo_4:11, Exo_4:12. He gave to Christ the tongue
        of the learned, to speak a word in season for the comfort of those that
        are weary and heavily laden under the burden of sin, Mat_11:28. Grace
        was poured into his lips, and they are said to drop sweet-smelling
        myrrh. See what is the best learning of a minister, to know how to
        comfort troubled consciences, and to speak pertinently, properly, and
        plainly, to the various cases of poor souls. An ability to do this is
        God's gift, and it is one of the best gifts, which we should covet
        earnestly. Let us repose ourselves in the many comfortable words which
        Christ has spoken to the weary. 2. The ear of the learned, to receive
        instruction. Prophets have as much need of this as of the tongue of the
        learned; for they must deliver what they are taught and no other, must
        hear the word from God's mouth diligently and attentively, that they may
        speak it exactly, Eze_3:17. Christ himself received that he might give.
        None must undertake to be teachers who have not first been learners.
        Christ's apostles were first disciples, scribes instructed unto the
        kingdom of heaven, Mat_13:52. Nor is it enough to hear, but we must hear
        as the learned, hear and understand, hear and remember, hear as those
        that would learn by what we hear. Those that would hear as the learned
        must be awake, and wakeful; for we are naturally drowsy and sleepy, and
        unapt to hear at all, or we hear by the halves, hear and do not heed.
        Our ears need to be wakened; we need to have something said to rouse us,
        to awaken us out of our spiritual slumbers, that we may hear as for our
        lives. We need to be awakened morning by morning, as duly as the day
        returns, to be awakened to do the work of the day in its day. Our case
        calls for continual fresh supplies of divine grace, to free us from the
        dulness we contract daily. The morning, when our spirits are most
        lively, is a proper time for communion with God; then we are in the best
        frame both to speak to him (my voice shalt thou hear in the morning) and
        to hear from him. The people came early in the morning to hear Christ in
        the temple (Luk_21:38), for, it seems, his were morning lectures. And it
        is God that wakens us morning by morning. If we do any thing to purpose
        in his service, it is he who, as our Master, calls us up; and we should
        doze perpetually if he did not waken us morning by morning.
        II. As a patient sufferer, Isa_50:5, Isa_50:6. One would think that he
        who was commissioned and qualified to speak comfort to the weary should
        meet with no difficulty in his work, but universal acceptance. It is
        however quite otherwise; he has both hard work to do and hard usage to
        undergo; and here he tells us with what undaunted constancy he went
        through with it. We have no reason to question but that the prophet
        Isaiah went on resolutely in the work to which God had called him,
        though we read not of his undergoing any such hardships as are here
        supposed; but we are sure that the prediction was abundantly verified in
        Jesus Christ: and here we have, 1. His patient obedience in his doing
        work. “The Lord God has not only wakened my ear to hear what he says,
        but has opened my ear to receive it, and comply with it” (Psa_40:6,
        Psa_40:7, My ear hast thou opened; then said I, Lo, I come); for when he
        adds, I was not rebellious, neither turned away back, more is implied
        than expressed - that he was willing, that though he foresaw a great
        deal of difficulty and discouragement, though he was to take pains and
        give constant attendance as a servant, though he was to empty himself of
        that which was very great and humble himself to that which was very
        mean, yet he did not fly off, did not fail, nor was discouraged. He
        continued very free and forward to his work even when he came to the
        hardest part of it. Note, As a good understanding in the truths of God,
        so a good will to the work and service of God, is from the grace of God.
        2. His obedient patience in his suffering work. I call it obedient
        patience because he was patient with an eye to his Father's will, thus
        pleading with himself, This commandment have I received of my Father,
        and thus submitting to God, Not as I will, but as thou wilt. In this
        submission he resigned himself, (1.) To be scourged: I gave my back to
        the smiters; and that not only by submitting to the indignity when he
        was smitten, but by permitting it (or admitting it rather) among the
        other instances of pain and shame which he would voluntarily undergo for
        us. (2.) To be buffeted: I gave my cheeks to those that not only smote
        them, but plucked off the hair of the beard, which was a greater degree
        both of pain and of ignominy. (3.) To be spit upon: I hid not my face
        from shame and spitting. He could have hidden his face from it, could
        have avoided it, but he would not, because he was made a reproach of
        men, and thus he would answer to the type of Job, that man of sorrows,
        of whom it is said that they smote him on the cheek reproachfully
        (Job_16:10), which was an expression not only of contempt, but of
        abhorrence and indignation. All this Christ underwent for us, and
        voluntarily, to convince us of his willingness to save us.
        III. As a courageous champion, Isa_50:7-9. The Redeemer is as famous for
        his boldness as for his humility and patience, and, though he yields,
        yet he is more than a conqueror. Observe, 1. The dependence he has upon
        God. What was the prophet Isaiah's support was the support of Christ
        himself (v. 7): The Lord God will help me; and again, v. 9. Those whom
        God employs he will assist, and will take care they want not any help
        that they or their work call for. God, having laid help upon his Son for
        us, gave help to him, and his hand was all along with the man of his
        right hand. Nor will he only assist him in his work, but accept of him
        (v. 8): He is near that justifieth. Isaiah, no doubt, was falsely
        accused and loaded with reproach and calumny, as other prophets were;
        but he despised the reproach, knowing that God would roll it away and
        bring forth his righteousness as the light, perhaps in this world
        (Psa_37:6), at furthest in the great day, when there will be a
        resurrection of names as well as bodies, and the righteous shall shine
        forth as the morning sun. And so it was verified in Christ; by his
        resurrection he was proved to be not the man that he was represented,
        not a blasphemer, not a deceiver, not an enemy to Caesar. The judge that
        condemned him owned he found no fault in him; the centurion, or sheriff,
        that had charge of his execution, declared him a righteous man: so near
        was he that justified him. But it was true of him in a further and more
        peculiar sense: the Father justified him when he accepted the
        satisfaction he made for the sin of man, and constituted him the Lord
        our righteousness, who was made sin for us. He was justified in the
        Spirit, 1Ti_3:16. He was near who did it; for his resurrection, by which
        he was justified, soon followed his condemnation and crucifixion. He was
        straightway glorified, Joh_13:32. 2. The confidence he thereupon has of
        success in his undertaking: “If God will help me, if he will justify me,
        will stand by me and bear me out, I shall not be confounded, as those
        are that come short of the end they aimed at and the satisfaction they
        promised themselves: I know that I shall not be ashamed.” Though his
        enemies did all they could to put him to shame, yet he kept his ground,
        he kept his countenance, and was not ashamed of the work he had
        undertaken. Note, Work for God is work that we should not be ashamed of;
        and hope in God is hope that we shall not be ashamed of. Those that
        trust in God for help shall not be disappointed; they know whom they
        have trusted, and therefore know they shall not be ashamed. 3. The
        defiance which in this confidence he bids to all opposers and
        opposition: “God will help me, and therefore have I set my face like a
        flint.” The prophet did so; he was bold in reproving sin, in warning
        sinners (Eze_3:8, Eze_3:9), and in asserting the truth of his
        predictions. Christ did so; he went on in his work, as Mediator, with
        unshaken constancy and undaunted resolution; he did not fail nor was
        discouraged; and here he challenges all his opposers, (1.) To enter the
        lists with him: Who will contend with me, either in law or by the sword?
        Let us stand together as combatants, or as the plaintiff and defendant.
        Who is my adversary? Who is the master of my cause? so the word is, “Who
        will pretend to enter an action against me? Let him appear, and come
        near to me, for I will not abscond.” Many offered to dispute with
        Christ, but he put them to silence. The prophet speaks this in the name
        of all faithful ministers; those who keep close to the pure word of God,
        in delivering their message, need not fear contradiction; the scriptures
        will bear them out, whoever contends with them. Great is the truth and
        will prevail. Christ speaks this in the name of all believers, speaks it
        as their champion. Who dares be an enemy to those whom he is a friend
        to, or contend with those for whom he is an advocate? Thus St. Paul
        applies it (Rom_8:33): Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's
        elect? (2.) He challenges them to prove any crime upon him (Isa_50:9):
        Who is he that shall condemn me? The prophet perhaps was condemned to
        die; Christ we are sure was; and yet both could say, Who is he that
        shall condemn? For there is no condemnation to those whom God justifies.
        There were those that did condemn them, but what became of them? They
        all shall wax old as a garment. The righteous cause of Christ and his
        prophets shall outlive all opposition. The moth shall eat them up
        silently and insensibly; a little thing will serve to destroy them. But
        the roaring lion himself shall not prevail against God's witnesses. All
        believers are enabled to make this challenge, Who is he that shall
        condemn? It is Christ that died.


        So, here are three different approaches. I like the Messianic best of all.

        Jim Hopkins


        Bob MacDonald wrote:
        > Re Isaiah 50:4 – who is speaking
        >
        >
        >
        > If we hear this verse how might it apply to the ‘servant’, to Israel, to the prophet, to Christ, to self?
        >
        >
        >
        > Lord יְהֹוִה has given me a tongue of one who is taught
        > so I may know how to assist the weary with a word
        > he wakens morning by morning
        > he wakens for me an ear of one who is taught
        >
        >
        >
        > I ask because this verse has meant a lot to me personally and I am supposed to say something of that tomorrow night at a Bible study. I am trying to stay away from my usual approach which everyone thinks is too scholarly – you real scholars should have a laugh at that.
        >
        >
        >
        > I understood this list was supposed to help in situations like this – and I am wondering if anyone has thoughts – or a good pointer
        >
        >
        >
        > Please respond here or on my blog http://stenagmois.blogspot.com/2009/04/isaiah-504.html
        >
        >
        >
        > thanks
        >
        >
        >
        > Bob
        >
        >
        >
        > Bob MacDonald
        >
        > Victoria BC
        >
        > http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com
        >
        > http://stbarnabasvictoria.blogspot.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
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      • George F Somsel
        I think you need to go clear back to 40.1 where it is the prophet of the return from exile who presents it as a second exodus in the journey through the desert
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 26, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          I think you need to go clear back to 40.1 where it is the prophet of the return from exile who presents it as a second exodus in the journey through the desert who is speaking.
           george
          gfsomsel


          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________




          ________________________________
          From: Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...>
          To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 9:11:37 PM
          Subject: [biblicalist] Isaiah servant songs





          Re Isaiah 50:4 – who is speaking

          If we hear this verse how might it apply to the ‘servant’, to Israel, to the prophet, to Christ, to self?

          Lord יְהֹוִה has given me a tongue of one who is taught
          so I may know how to assist the weary with a word
          he wakens morning by morning
          he wakens for me an ear of one who is taught

          I ask because this verse has meant a lot to me personally and I am supposed to say something of that tomorrow night at a Bible study. I am trying to stay away from my usual approach which everyone thinks is too scholarly – you real scholars should have a laugh at that.

          I understood this list was supposed to help in situations like this – and I am wondering if anyone has thoughts – or a good pointer

          Please respond here or on my blog http://stenagmois. blogspot. com/2009/ 04/isaiah- 504.html

          thanks

          Bob

          Bob MacDonald

          Victoria BC

          http://drmacdonald. blogspot. com

          http://stbarnabasvi ctoria.blogspot. com
          .






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bob MacDonald
          Jim – thanks That is a long reply – I find copying and pasting large amounts of text from other places is best done by a link If this verse – even out of
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 26, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Jim – thanks



            That is a long reply – I find copying and pasting large amounts of text from other places is best done by a link



            If this verse – even out of context – were for you, without looking up what someone else has said about it, how does it apply? I am not looking for explanation – explanations are everywhere – but for response



            If it only applies to the mysterious servant – who is the servant for the writer? – writing long before Jesus. It is obvious that people have applied this verse to Jesus as Messiah – that is not news. Is the servant Israel, or the prophet, or Cyrus or unknown?



            The voice arises from a rebuke in the first 3 verses concerning a bill of divorce.

            In the midst of a rebuke from YHWH why does this voice arise for the writer?



            Morning by morning he wakes… – I suppose it could refer to a school situation as one of your references suggest, but I would not take it this way without some historical support. Is this the same experience as the psalmist records in psalm 139? When I awake I am still with you.



            Bob



            Bob MacDonald

            Victoria BC

            http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com

            http://stenagmois.blogspot.com

            http://stbarnabasvictoria.blogspot.com







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bob MacDonald
            ... Thanks George – that is helpful. Curiously enough there is a helpful IMO short summary of the servant songs in Wikipedia (I am having a hard time not
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 26, 2009
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              >>I think you need to go clear back to 40.1 where it is the prophet of the return from exile who presents it as a second exodus in the journey through the desert who is speaking.<<



              Thanks George – that is helpful.



              Curiously enough there is a helpful IMO short summary of the servant songs in Wikipedia (I am having a hard time not smiling as I say this) – link here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah#Servant_Songs



              This is helpful because without having to go to the library or translate Isaiah myself – (some day maybe but no time between now and tomorrow) I did not know that this analysis came from the late 1800s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Duhm)



              I am guessing that all analyses have their own datedness



              Who is the servant today – I wonder?



              Bob



              Bob MacDonald

              Victoria BC

              http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com

              http://stenagmois.blogspot.com

              http://stbarnabasvictoria.blogspot.com







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bob MacDonald
              Another question The word לִמּוּדִים (limudim) occurs twice in this verse – I see two competing Jewish translations – Mechon-mamre has the tongue
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 26, 2009
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                Another question



                The word לִמּוּדִים (limudim) occurs twice in this verse – I see two competing Jewish translations – Mechon-mamre has the tongue of them that are taught –



                Another (http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15981 ) has – the Lord God gave me a tongue for teaching. (I think this ‘translation’ is wrong on a number of points but that is because I do not read prophets as if I know the answers in advance – it’s no way to learn)



                Any thoughts on how this word should be read – active as teacher or receptive as learner? Singular or plural?



                Bob





                Bob MacDonald

                Victoria BC

                http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com

                http://stenagmois.blogspot.com

                http://stbarnabasvictoria.blogspot.com









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Harold Holmyard
                Bob, ... HH: Passages where the servant is personified and speaks refer to the Messianic servant, the king, the one who would suffer before he was glorified
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 27, 2009
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                  Bob,
                  >
                  >
                  > Re Isaiah 50:4 – who is speaking
                  >
                  > If we hear this verse how might it apply to the ‘servant’, to Israel,
                  > to the prophet, to Christ, to self?
                  >
                  > Lord יְהֹוִה has given me a tongue of one who is taught
                  > so I may know how to assist the weary with a word
                  > he wakens morning by morning
                  > he wakens for me an ear of one who is taught
                  >
                  > I ask because this verse has meant a lot to me personally and I am
                  > supposed to say something of that tomorrow night at a Bible study. I
                  > am trying to stay away from my usual approach which everyone thinks is
                  > too scholarly – you real scholars should have a laugh at that.
                  >
                  > I understood this list was supposed to help in situations like this –
                  > and I am wondering if anyone has thoughts – or a good pointer
                  >




















                  HH: Passages where the servant is personified and speaks refer to the
                  Messianic servant, the king, the one who would suffer before he was
                  glorified (Isaiah 52-53):

                  3 Incline your ear, and come unto me; hear, and your soul shall live:
                  and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies
                  of David. 4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the peoples, a
                  leader and commander to the peoples. 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation
                  that thou knowest not, and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto
                  thee, because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for
                  he hath glorified thee.

                  The Davidic covenant involved a descendant of David who would rule like
                  David and have the obedience of the nations.

                  CSB Isaiah 42:1 "This is My Servant; I strengthen Him, this is My
                  Chosen One; I delight in Him. I have put My Spirit on Him; He will bring
                  justice to the nations. 2 He will not cry out or shout or make His voice
                  heard in the streets. 3 He will not break a bruised reed, and He will
                  not put out a smoldering wick; He will faithfully bring justice. 4 He
                  will not grow weak or be discouraged until He has established justice on
                  earth. The islands will wait for His instruction."

                  HH: But before he instructed others he had to learn to take instruction.
                  He had to learn to follow God carefully before he led.

                  Yours,
                  Harold Holmyard




                  >



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                • Harold Holmyard
                  Bob, ... HH: I think the verse s overall meaning includes both ideas, but the word itself refers to learning. here is the Holman Christian Standard Bible
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 27, 2009
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                    Bob,
                    > Another question
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The word לִמּוּדִים (limudim) occurs twice in this verse – I see two competing Jewish translations – Mechon-mamre has the tongue of them that are taught –
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Another (http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15981 ) has – the Lord God gave me a tongue for teaching. (I think this ‘translation’ is wrong on a number of points but that is because I do not read prophets as if I know the answers in advance – it’s no way to learn)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Any thoughts on how this word should be read – active as teacher or receptive as learner? Singular or plural?
                    >

                    HH: I think the verse's overall meaning includes both ideas, but the
                    word itself refers to learning. here is the Holman Christian Standard
                    Bible interpretation:

                    4 The Lord God has given Me the tongue of those who are instructed to
                    know how to sustain the weary with a word. He awakens Me each morning;
                    He awakens My ear to listen like those being instructed.

                    Yours,
                    Harold Holmyard
                  • Bob MacDonald
                    Thanks Harold Maybe my thoughts are so obvious that no one would consider them as important. I think this verse applies as a microcosm of faith for anyone who
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 27, 2009
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                      Thanks Harold



                      Maybe my thoughts are so obvious that no one would consider them as important. I think this verse applies as a microcosm of faith for anyone who is in the role of servant. For me it redefines life away from the need to know the right things about God or about his servant and away from the need to be dominant and towards the simple action of being still and listening.



                      It is a curious beginning – Adonai YHWH – often translated Lord God – because they had to write something and Lord LORD would look strange.



                      I (prophet, servant, Israel, Christ, anyone who is anointed, you – me personally) am given a tongue – words to encourage fellow laborers – not copying someone else’s words but my very own – a creative language, not a descriptive or derived language.



                      To get the tongue I must have an ear – it is a slow process to open an ear. Hearing and obedience are so tightly tied together that the ear can be seen as the obedience of faith itself. Is the whole body an ear? Sometimes yes it is. Listening is the human’s hardest problem when one is concerned with being right or being strong rather than being servant. So the first commandment on Sabbath is Hear – O Israel…



                      Thanks for listening – it helped me prepare my thoughts without writing stuff down and plastering my colleagues this evening with all that stuff



                      Lord יְהֹוִה has given me a tongue of those who are taught
                      so I may know how to assist the weary with a word
                      he wakens morning by morning
                      he wakens for me an ear of those who are taught



                      Bob MacDonald

                      Victoria BC

                      http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com

                      http://stenagmois.blogspot.com

                      http://stbarnabasvictoria.blogspot.com







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Norm Patriquin
                      Isaiah 50:4 who is speaking…I believe it is likely Jesus…. This is understandably going to sound crazy but for those with an openness to totally new
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 27, 2009
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                        Isaiah 50:4 who is speaking…I believe it is likely Jesus….



                        This is understandably going to sound crazy but for those with an openness to totally new ideas, compare the below verses to Isaiah 50:4. As impossible as it sounds for seven years I’ve been studying symbolism of biblical numbers and about three years after I began I could no longer deny that God had in his own spectacular way inspired all Bible numbers to follow the same patterns as numbers in the text—this incredibly includes book, chapter and verse numbers. I know all the reasons this just cannot be -- but when you see the evidence for yourself it can’t be denied. I’ve just published a book explaining all this (link below). I say this to explain the strange answer to the question…



                        Since this is verse 50:4 it relates to the numbers 54 and 45. The theme for number 54 appears to be about people actually realizing Jesus is God and relates to how Jesus speaks to us and shows us who he is. There’s lots more evidence than these verses below but they will give some food for thought on the subject of Isaiah 50:4. The Bible’s 5400th verse is a good example for this group since it was a random question I happened to read in the list serve. Is it coincidence the raised on the list regarding Isaiah 50:4 is about who is speaking and it just so happens that the 5400th Bible verse refers to the very same specific subject?





                        The 5400th verse of the Bible…Deu 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.





                        Deu 5:4 "The LORD spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire,

                        1Pet 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

                        Josh 5:14 …Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?"

                        Mrk 6:54 When they got out of the boat, immediately {the people} recognized Him,

                        Amo 5:4 For thus says the LORD to the house of Israel, "Seek Me that you may live.

                        Act 7:54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they {began} gnashing their teeth at him.

                        Luke 5:4 When He had finished speaking, He said to Simon, "Put out into the deep water and let down your nets for a catch."



                        Exo 4:15 "You are to speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I, even I, will be with your mouth and his mouth, and I will teach you what you are to do.

                        John 8:54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';

                        Hos 5:4 Their deeds will not allow them To return to their God. For a spirit of harlotry is within them, And they do not know the LORD.





                        http://www.amazon.com/BIBLES-REDEMPTION-PATTERN-NUMERIC-MAP/dp/1607914484/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 <http://www.amazon.com/BIBLES-REDEMPTION-PATTERN-NUMERIC-MAP/dp/1607914484/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240864339&sr=1-1> &s=books&qid=1240864339&sr=1-1



                        Impossible: To add just a tiny bit of credibility to this crazy sounding note---consider a day has 24 hours and that Matthew 24:42 is about being alert for the coming Day of the Lord. The chapter about this day has a number of 24, verse 42 is 24 in reverse and is the key verse. These might all be considered an interesting coincidence if it was not for the fact this is exactly the 24,000th verse of the Bible.



                        I’m totally OK if you can’t believe this. It took me years to build up to this understanding. I don’t think it is possible to grasp the possibility without lots of personal investigation.



                        Norm







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                      • Stephen G. Keating
                        ... Norm: While numerology is fascinating, and there are many examples of numbers being used in symbolic ways, the assignment of chapters and verses to
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 27, 2009
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                          --- In biblicalist@yahoogroups.com, "Norm Patriquin" <npatriquin@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Isaiah 50:4 who is speaking…I believe it is likely Jesus….
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > This is understandably going to sound crazy but for those with an openness to totally new ideas, compare the below verses to Isaiah 50:4. As impossible as it sounds for seven years I’ve been studying symbolism of biblical numbers and about three years after I began I could no longer deny that God had in his own spectacular way inspired all Bible numbers to follow the same patterns as numbers in the textâ€"this incredibly includes book, chapter and verse numbers. I know all the reasons this just cannot be -- but when you see the evidence for yourself it can’t be denied. I’ve just published a book explaining all this (link below). I say this to explain the strange answer to the question…

                          Norm:

                          While numerology is fascinating, and there are many examples of numbers being used in symbolic ways, the assignment of chapters and verses to biblical printings is a comparatively recent phenomenon, with the modern texts derived from a 1551 printing by Robert Estienne, where he found it helpful when cross-referencing a parallel translation of two Latin and one Greek text.

                          See: Hapanta ta tés kainés diathékés. Nouum Iesu Christi D. N. Testamentum. Cum duplici interpretatione, D. Erasmi, & Veteris interpretis: Harmonia item Euangelica, & copioso Indice. [Geneva]: Robert Estienne, 1551.

                          Steve Keating
                        • Bob MacDonald
                          Mr. Norm Patriquin You may be related to some people I knew years ago or have been my brother’s classmate – but that doesn’t mean I am going to swallow
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 27, 2009
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                            Mr. Norm Patriquin



                            You may be related to some people I knew years ago or have been my brother’s classmate – but that doesn’t mean I am going to swallow numerology. There is certainly magic in words but not that sort of magic – the right sort of magic is in listening and obedience and its cost. So here’s a bit of spitting and smiting for your back.



                            Job may be a laughing stock for his friends but we don’t need to turn the ancient literature into such a laughing stock. Perhaps I am too serious also about who I have believed but I have not believed only to play either games as have no boundaries or games where the boundary is only my own understanding.



                            I understand that this list is for questions that tie scholarship to faith. So far half the responses have been dumps of verses in English – hobby horse exercises without thought.



                            Is it not possible to wake up and grow up? If God wanted to prove his existence by numerology, God would have no reason for the invitation to faith.



                            Where are the moderators? All off blogging.



                            Bob MacDonald

                            Victoria BC

                            http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com

                            http://stenagmois.blogspot.com

                            http://stbarnabasvictoria.blogspot.com







                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • George F Somsel
                            Yes, it is true that all analyses have a certain datedness to them though they are frequently still valid in a modified form.  We stand on the shoulders of
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 27, 2009
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                              Yes, it is true that all analyses have a certain datedness to them though they are frequently still valid in a modified form.  We stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before us.  This reminds me of the (American Indian ?) view that the world was founded on the back of a turtle and a remark I heard on that that it's "turtles all the way down."  No significance to this -- I simply thought it rather humorous.  While I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a scholarly source, it isn't a totally bad place to start (even though there are better places).  I emphasize START.
                               george
                              gfsomsel


                              … search for truth, hear truth,
                              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              defend the truth till death.


                              - Jan Hus
                              _________




                              ________________________________
                              From: Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...>
                              To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 11:47:12 PM
                              Subject: RE: [biblicalist] Isaiah servant songs





                              >>I think you need to go clear back to 40.1 where it is the prophet of the return from exile who presents it as a second exodus in the journey through the desert who is speaking.<<

                              Thanks George – that is helpful.

                              Curiously enough there is a helpful IMO short summary of the servant songs in Wikipedia (I am having a hard time not smiling as I say this) – link here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah#Servant_Songs

                              This is helpful because without having to go to the library or translate Isaiah myself – (some day maybe but no time between now and tomorrow) I did not know that this analysis came from the late 1800s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Duhm)

                              I am guessing that all analyses have their own datedness

                              Who is the servant today – I wonder?

                              Bob

                              Bob MacDonald

                              Victoria BC

                              http://drmacdonald. blogspot. com

                              http://stenagmois. blogspot. com

                              http://stbarnabasvi ctoria.blogspot. com

                              .






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                            • Norm Patriquin
                              Since I received this message from the group “Numerology is very interesting, but this is not the list for it.” I’ll refrain from further discussion
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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                                Since I received this message from the group “Numerology is very interesting, but this is not the list for it.” I’ll refrain from further discussion about Biblical numbers.



                                Norm Patriquin

                                npatriquin@...







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