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The Tithe Blessing (was Re: Spelling check and meanings!!!)

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  • rwwilson147
    Oh, my, I think history has begun to be a bit less fun as I get into this, but. . . my impression is that somewhere a while back someone stumbled over their
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 30, 2008
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      Oh, my, I think history has begun to be a bit less fun as I get into
      this, but. . . my impression is that somewhere a while back someone
      stumbled over their rather myopic commitment to Old Testament Law,
      stubbed their toe on their too truncated understanding of The
      Prophets, and fell headlong into the dirt at the foot of The Cross,
      but still didn't sense the profound transformation that had surely
      found renewed expression in the teaching of Jesus, and perhaps fuller
      expression in the understanding of The Apostles as they breathed New
      Life in The Spirit. Legalism tends to suck the life-blood out of
      Jesus' sacrifice in an effort to find something else to take its
      place; I pray I don't go very far there looking . .. but if I do I
      hope we can find the way out together.
      Grace and Peace in Christ,
      Richard W. Wilson; St. Louis, MO, USA


      --- In biblicalist@yahoogroups.com, "funhistory"
      <yahoo_biblical-studies@...> wrote:
      >
      > > A friend of mine wrote this article on tithing a while ago.
      > > It's not too long and I've found it helpful for my
      > > own understanding. I think his conclusion is sensible also.
      > > by Glenn Peoples, PhD
      > > Geoff
      >
      > Though this article by Dr. Peoples presents a good argument for not
      > tithing, it conveniently omits Malachi, & also the great worship
      > reformation led by King Hezekiah. That's embarrassing for someone
      > with a PhD. It also misrepresents what Abram did when it says he
      > didn't tithe of his own income or produce, but only of booty. What
      > did he do with the other 90% of the booty? The truth is that we
      > don't know whether he tithed his income during any period of his life
      > because so little of it has been preserved, so this line of reasoning
      > doesn't bolster Dr. Peoples' case.
      >
      > Again, it begins with the same basic question asked at the beginning
      > of this thread, "Should Christians tithe?" Typical question from
      > people seeking to do something minimal to ease their conscience; but
      > it's not the question someone would ask after being saved/rescued
      > from a deadly car crash (or some other catastrophe; see Luke 18:13).
      >
      > Dr. Peoples also neglected mentioning the famous Mark 12 / Luke 21
      > record of Jesus commending the widow for giving 100% of her finances
      > to God (i.e., via the Temple treasury), & what the woman did in
      > Matthew 26 (i.e., "waste" her money on Jesus).
      >
      > In sum, his conclusion may seem sensible, but it's out-of-touch with
      > God's ways. Leviticus 27 makes it clear that 10% of one's income
      > is "the LORD's" (i.e., it's "holy"). Malachi 3 says unequivocally
      > that people who don't tithe are stealing from God, & simultaneously
      > missing out on a great blessing from God. As I said before, I don't
      > understand why any Christian would want to miss out on that, or hunt
      > down some Scriptural/historical escape clause.
      >
      > He concludes with 2 strawmen ("unless you tithe, God cannot bless
      > you"; "why would you withhold what God requires").
      >
      > Seeking a passage in the NT or early Christian church history that
      > would negate God's ways is not sensible. Psalm 95 & Hebrews 3
      > emphasize the importance of knowing God's ways. As George Somsel
      > pointed out, tithing is "lesser" (& easier) than other aspects of
      > God's ways, so of course I would conclude:
      >
      > "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in
      > much..."--Luke 16:10
      >
      > G.M. Grena
      > www.LMLK.com
      >
    • Geoff
      ... Actually, it appears to me that Malachi and Hezekiah dont really affect his conclusion at all. There is no information about the purpose and use of the
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 30, 2008
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        funhistory wrote:
        >
        >
        > > A friend of mine wrote this article on tithing a while ago.
        > > It's not too long and I've found it helpful for my
        > > own understanding. I think his conclusion is sensible also.
        > > by Glenn Peoples, PhD
        > > Geoff
        >
        > Though this article by Dr. Peoples presents a good argument for not
        > tithing, it conveniently omits Malachi, & also the great worship
        > reformation led by King Hezekiah. That's embarrassing for someone
        > with a PhD. It also misrepresents what Abram did when it says he
        > didn't tithe of his own income or produce, but only of booty. What
        > did he do with the other 90% of the booty? The truth is that we
        > don't know whether he tithed his income during any period of his life
        > because so little of it has been preserved, so this line of reasoning
        > doesn't bolster Dr. Peoples' case.

        Actually, it appears to me that Malachi and Hezekiah dont really affect
        his conclusion at all. There is no information about the "purpose and
        use" of the tithe, just the necessity for it. We know it was necessary
        then, but is it necessary now?
        The answer is yes. Some people are called to "tithe" and it is somewhat
        of a ministry and gifting. Other people are called to give from what
        they can, and gladly, whether it is money, food, clothes, shelter, love,
        whatever.

        <snip>

        > In sum, his conclusion may seem sensible, but it's out-of-touch with
        > God's ways. Leviticus 27 makes it clear that 10% of one's income
        > is "the LORD's" (i.e., it's "holy"). Malachi 3 says unequivocally
        > that people who don't tithe are stealing from God, & simultaneously
        > missing out on a great blessing from God. As I said before, I don't
        > understand why any Christian would want to miss out on that, or hunt
        > down some Scriptural/historical escape clause.

        Did the Israelites earn a wage one and all? No. One's income might be
        the crop one harvested, or some service one received, or the meat from
        cattle that were slaughtered. Claiming 10% of your wage appears to be
        out of touch with history.

        You know, recently in New Zealand there has been an outcry regarding
        tithing. People in some Churches (it appears to be mainly, but not
        restricted to Polynesian Churches) are going into debt to pay their
        tithes. They are re-mortgaging their houses, borrowing from loan sharks,
        and just not paying bills or buying the necessities of life because they
        are deathly afraid of "stealing from God", and worse, their Pastors
        "name and shame" those who dont give, or dont give enough.

        I dont know about you, but such teaching appears to be contradictory
        with "God's ways". If when you have paid all your bills and provided for
        your family there is less than 10% do you borrow money to meet the
        shortfall? If you dont, according to your understanding, you are
        stealing from God. Sounds like foolishness to me. How can it be that we
        have to give 10% if it means we have to put our families lives in
        danger, possibly lose our houses, etc?

        Fact is, the story about the woman who gave her last few coins is not
        really a story about tithing at all, because she wasnt giving 10% for a
        start. She was giving an offering out of faith. Thats what we're called
        to; to give what is laid on our hearts to give. For some its 10%, for
        some its countless hours of lawn mowing or building repairs, or baby
        sitting while people go to home groups, or picking up people who cant
        drive and taking them to meetings, or whatever.

        The idea that the OT form of tithing is still applicable today just
        doesnt stack up with the bible, love, or common sense.

        Geoff
        Auckland
        New Zealand.




        !DSPAM:4959f7b6122121065242388!
      • funhistory
        ... Here comes the broken record again: tithing is a vehicle for blessing. Don t tithe; don t get the blessing. Your choice. It s amazing that so many
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 30, 2008
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          > rather myopic commitment to Old Testament Law,
          > ...
          > Legalism tends to suck the life-blood out
          > Richard W. Wilson

          Here comes the broken record again: tithing is a vehicle for
          blessing. Don't tithe; don't get the blessing. Your choice. It's
          amazing that so many people like you only view it as a law. Truly a
          pity. Tithing is indeed fun if you're able to focus on eternal
          rewards instead of your temporary/temporal bank account. Please re-
          read Matthew 6:19-20, Richard, & I pray that you can break free from
          whatever corrupt tradition taught you that tithing is some sort of
          terrible, blood-sucking law.

          > We know it was necessary then, but is it necessary now?
          > Geoff

          Nothing in the NT or early church history negates Leviticus 27 (all
          the tithe is the LORD's) & Malachi 3 (if you don't return it to the
          LORD, you're no different than a bank robber). It's the same LORD
          today, yesterday, & forever. Is it "necessary" for you to lay up
          treasures for yourself in heaven? No. Sure you can be saved & go to
          heaven like any other thief, but you're missing out on accumulating
          eternal rewards for being a faithful steward while you're alive here
          on the stage of history per Matthew 25, Luke 19, & particularly
          2Corinthians 5:10. Your choice.

          > Some people are called to "tithe" and it is somewhat
          > of a ministry and gifting. Other people are called
          > to give ...
          > Geoff

          Another point I wanted to make yesterday on this subject was that
          tithing is not "giving" (someone had mentioned "freely giving"). One
          cannot give something that never was his/hers originally. If I
          entrust you with $100 for a month, then come back a month later,
          you're not giving me anything; you're returning what was & still is
          mine. You simply happen to be in temporary possession of it.
          Giving, on the other hand, would be if you were to not only return my
          $100, but "give" me something that was not mine, such as an
          additional $5 or $20 I was not expecting to receive, simply because
          you love me, & are generous.

          I think eternity will reveal that the average atheist was just as
          generous as the average Christian. Christians (& all I've been
          saying applies to Jews as well, but I think the main audience in this
          Biblicalist forum is Christians) should freely give to others, but
          they should first "give" back what doesn't really belong to them
          (i.e., the LORD's tithe, & also firstfruits by the way). Christians
          may fool humans into thinking they're generous by their charitable
          donations, but they can't fool God.

          > People in some Churches ...
          > are going into debt to pay their tithes.
          > ...
          > If when you have paid all your bills and provided
          > for your family there is less than 10%...
          > Geoff

          That's ridiculous. It shows how out of touch so many Christians are
          with God's ways, & putting God first in their lives. If tithing is
          set as a person's financial priority, then that person may go into
          debt over other matters, but not over tithing. It's a matter of
          setting priorities. Anybody who can afford to buy food, shelter, &
          other necessities (& that includes everybody capable of earning
          wages) can afford to tithe. The only reason they'd go into debt is
          if they were poor financial stewards with the 90%, or simply lazy, in
          which case they deserve to starve until they come to their senses
          (2Thessalonians 3:10).

          I don't believe anybody in the history of the world has ever starved
          to death because they gave 10% of their money to God; but even so,
          I'd rather go out doing it God's way than the world's way (i.e., pay
          all the other bills first, then see if there's anything left over for
          God; contrast your philosophy with Elijah's in 1Kings 17:13).

          G.M. Grena
          www.LMLK.com
        • George F Somsel
          Good grief !  Where does one begin ?   7     “Hear, O my people, and I will speak, O Israel, I will testify against you. I am God, your God.
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 30, 2008
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            Good grief !  Where does one begin ?

             
            7     “Hear, O my people, and I will speak,
            O Israel, I will testify against you.
            I am God, your God.
            8     Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you;
            your burnt offerings are continually before me.
            9     I will not accept a bull from your house,
            or goats from your folds.
            10     For every wild animal of the forest is mine,
            the cattle on a thousand hills.
            11     I know all the birds of the air,
            and all that moves in the field is mine.
            12     “If I were hungry, I would not tell you,
            for the world and all that is in it is mine.
            13     Do I eat the flesh of bulls,
            or drink the blood of goats?
            14     Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving,
            and pay your vows to the Most High.
            15     Call on me in the day of trouble;
            I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me.”
            16     But to the wicked God says:
            “What right have you to recite my statutes,
            or take my covenant on your lips?
            17     For you hate discipline,
            and you cast my words behind you.
            18     You make friends with a thief when you see one,
            and you keep company with adulterers.
            19     “You give your mouth free rein for evil,
            and your tongue frames deceit.
            20     You sit and speak against your kin;
            you slander your own mother’s child.
            21     These things you have done and I have been silent;
            you thought that I was one just like yourself.
            But now I rebuke you, and lay the charge before you.
            22     “Mark this, then, you who forget God,
            or I will tear you apart, and there will be no one to deliver.
            23     Those who bring thanksgiving as their sacrifice honor me;
            to those who go the right way
            I will show the salvation of God.”
             
            The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Ps 50:7-23). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
             george
            gfsomsel


            … search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.


            - Jan Hus
            _________




            ________________________________
            From: funhistory <yahoo_biblical-studies@...>
            To: biblicalist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:42:06 AM
            Subject: [biblicalist] The Tithe Blessing (was Re: Spelling check and meanings!!!)


            > rather myopic commitment to Old Testament Law,
            > ...
            > Legalism tends to suck the life-blood out
            > Richard W. Wilson

            Here comes the broken record again: tithing is a vehicle for
            blessing. Don't tithe; don't get the blessing. Your choice. It's
            amazing that so many people like you only view it as a law. Truly a
            pity. Tithing is indeed fun if you're able to focus on eternal
            rewards instead of your temporary/temporal bank account. Please re-
            read Matthew 6:19-20, Richard, & I pray that you can break free from
            whatever corrupt tradition taught you that tithing is some sort of
            terrible, blood-sucking law.

            > We know it was necessary then, but is it necessary now?
            > Geoff

            Nothing in the NT or early church history negates Leviticus 27 (all
            the tithe is the LORD's) & Malachi 3 (if you don't return it to the
            LORD, you're no different than a bank robber). It's the same LORD
            today, yesterday, & forever. Is it "necessary" for you to lay up
            treasures for yourself in heaven? No. Sure you can be saved & go to
            heaven like any other thief, but you're missing out on accumulating
            eternal rewards for being a faithful steward while you're alive here
            on the stage of history per Matthew 25, Luke 19, & particularly
            2Corinthians 5:10. Your choice.

            > Some people are called to "tithe" and it is somewhat
            > of a ministry and gifting. Other people are called
            > to give ...
            > Geoff

            Another point I wanted to make yesterday on this subject was that
            tithing is not "giving" (someone had mentioned "freely giving"). One
            cannot give something that never was his/hers originally. If I
            entrust you with $100 for a month, then come back a month later,
            you're not giving me anything; you're returning what was & still is
            mine. You simply happen to be in temporary possession of it.
            Giving, on the other hand, would be if you were to not only return my
            $100, but "give" me something that was not mine, such as an
            additional $5 or $20 I was not expecting to receive, simply because
            you love me, & are generous.

            I think eternity will reveal that the average atheist was just as
            generous as the average Christian. Christians (& all I've been
            saying applies to Jews as well, but I think the main audience in this
            Biblicalist forum is Christians) should freely give to others, but
            they should first "give" back what doesn't really belong to them
            (i.e., the LORD's tithe, & also firstfruits by the way). Christians
            may fool humans into thinking they're generous by their charitable
            donations, but they can't fool God.

            > People in some Churches ...
            > are going into debt to pay their tithes.
            > ...
            > If when you have paid all your bills and provided
            > for your family there is less than 10%...
            > Geoff

            That's ridiculous. It shows how out of touch so many Christians are
            with God's ways, & putting God first in their lives. If tithing is
            set as a person's financial priority, then that person may go into
            debt over other matters, but not over tithing. It's a matter of
            setting priorities. Anybody who can afford to buy food, shelter, &
            other necessities (& that includes everybody capable of earning
            wages) can afford to tithe. The only reason they'd go into debt is
            if they were poor financial stewards with the 90%, or simply lazy, in
            which case they deserve to starve until they come to their senses
            (2Thessalonians 3:10).

            I don't believe anybody in the history of the world has ever starved
            to death because they gave 10% of their money to God; but even so,
            I'd rather go out doing it God's way than the world's way (i.e., pay
            all the other bills first, then see if there's anything left over for
            God; contrast your philosophy with Elijah's in 1Kings 17:13).

            G.M. Grena
            www.LMLK.com






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • funhistory
            ... George, I don t understand the purpose of you quoting that Psalm. Please elaborate. It says to offer to God thanksgiving, & PAY our vows. Are you
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 31, 2008
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              > Good grief ! Where does one begin ?
              > Ps 50:7-23). Nashville:
              > gfsomsel

              George, I don't understand the purpose of you quoting that Psalm.
              Please elaborate. It says to offer to God thanksgiving, & PAY our
              vows. Are you actually suggesting that if somebody tithes to the
              LORD, that they are incapable of offering "a sacrifice of
              thanksgiving" to God? Or are you agreeing with my earlier posts &
              pointing out that "the wicked ... hate discipline" (i.e., put God
              first per Elijah instead of last) & cast God's words behind them
              (i.e., Malachi 3)?

              "And king David said to Ornan, "Nay, but I will verily buy it for the
              full price; for I will not take that which is thine for the LORD, nor
              offer burnt offerings WITHOUT COST."--1Chronicles 21:24

              True "worship" doesn't consist of warm wishes & thoughtful comments
              (i.e., the typical Sunday service at most Christian churches); it's
              an expression of worth, & in our society, we express worth with
              money, or things of significant monetary value (e.g., "an alabaster
              box of very precious ointment").

              Talk is cheap. Tithing is an excellent way for God to sort out the
              sincere from the fakers. It's been that way since Cain & Abel.

              G.M. Grena
              www.LMLK.com
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