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Re: [biblicalapologetics] RE: The Trinity

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  • Paul Leonard
    Hope you get much better soon. Robert Bowman wrote:All, I apologize for not being more involved in the discussions lately--I was
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 12, 2005
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      Hope you get much better soon.

      Robert Bowman <robertbowman@...> wrote:
      All,


      I apologize for not being more involved in the discussions lately--I was
      sick for almost a month and am only now most of the way better. Now I have a
      lot of catching up to do.
    • robert newman
      Rev evangelist wrote, PROOFS FOR JESUS BEING DEITY The savior has the power to forgive sins. Only God is able to forgive sins, Luke 7:48-50 And Jesus said to
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 13, 2005
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        Rev evangelist wrote,

         

        PROOFS FOR JESUS BEING DEITY

        The savior has the power to forgive sins.

        Only God is able to forgive sins, Luke 7:48-50"And Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven. "And those who sat atthe table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

        Mark 2:5-10 "When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you." And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? "Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise, take up your bed and walk'? "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"-- First thing noticeable is that Jesus personally forgives the mans sins. He is also able perceive what they are thinking. He tells the man to rise up and walk after his sins are forgiven. Showing those around him that his statement of forgiveness is true by giving them a physical example of his power. Jesus points to himself as the source of forgiveness, this is why the Pharisee’s were so taken back, they were right, only God can forgive sins.

         

        Hi to all,

         

        Is it really so that ONLY God can forgive sins?

         

        Marks gives this viewpoint as expressed by the Pharisees, yet the same account in Matthew presents a different view, that of the people, consider

         

        Matthew 9:2-8   2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."  3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"  4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?  5 Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'?  6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home."  7 And the man got up and went home.  8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

         

        Might the crowds have had the right viewpoint? Can authority to forgive sins be given?

         

        Jesus says

        John 20:22-23   22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.  23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

         

        So could it not be possible that Jesus was given authority to forgive sins from his God and father?

         

        Much agape

        Rob

      • Iamaccfiile@aol.com
        In a message dated 2/13/2005 4:23:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rob@designceramics.co.uk writes: So could it not be possible that Jesus was given authority
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 13, 2005
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          In a message dated 2/13/2005 4:23:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rob@... writes:

          So could it not be possible that Jesus was given authority to forgive sins from his God and father?

           

          Much agape

          Rob

          Rob I put up this post but I didn't see it go though
           
          J
           
           
          In a message dated 2/12/2005 5:30:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, RevEvangelist@... writes:
          PROOFS FOR JESUS BEING DEITY

          The savior has the power to forgive sins.

          Only God is able to forgive sins, Luke 7:48-50"And Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven. "And those who sat atthe table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."
          Interesting you try to settle my scriptures with others when you haven't given an answer to the MANY scriptures showing that being at someone's RIGHT HAND doesn't signify being that person but being a SEPERATE entity. So first answer this problem first before you start using other scriptures that I have all heard before.....boring.......
           
          HOW is it possible to be at someone's REIGHT hand and be that person revevangelist?
           
           Not to complicated. No early Church Fathers comments here, No Sharps Rule here, No qualitative quantitive bla bla bla. Just answer the SIMPLE question. The Bible is VERY SPECIFIC about Jesus being at Gods RIGHT HAND for a reason. Give me an answer. Remember your trying to prove your MYTH now and I can see the sweat coming off your forehead.
           
          As to your other Scriptures about forgiving Sins only being from God you miss one itty bitty point...Jesus was given what.....tick tick tick...........The AUTHORITY to do it.
           
           AUTHORITY comes from WHO????      Someone HIGHER.......... God doesn't need Authority to do anything he is the Authority....PERIOD.... Jesus was given the AUTHORITY just like Moses was given the Authority to stand between God and the Nation Of Israel. Moses wasn't God....Then maybe he was????
           
          Exo 7:1  The LORD said, "I am going to make you like God to the king, and your brother Aaron will speak to him as your prophet.
           
          There you have it Moses was like God...........
           
          Could Jesus be "like" God  as was Moses?? Hmmmmmmmmm
           
          Aren't the Scriptures fun...???
           
          When God gives the Authority to someone you can forgive SINS, raise the dead, make miracles, and what ever else he wants you to do. The Bible is proof of all that...
          We have resurrections in the OT, I thought ONLY God could do that???
           
           We have Miracles.
           
           But then again, you all knew that didn't you?
           
          J
        • Paul Leonard
          HI Robert, An excellent post. I would only change two things. The might makes it a question. Yet Jesus own statement that the Father has given him such
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 13, 2005
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            HI Robert,
             
            An excellent post.
             
            I would only change two things.
             
            The "might" makes it a question. Yet Jesus own statement that the Father has given him such authority, indicates that they did get it right. Thus it is not simply "possible" but a reality.
             
            I know you were asking  rhetorical questions, in both instances. :^)

            robert newman <rob@...> wrote:

              8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

             

            Might the crowds have had the right viewpoint? Can authority to forgive sins be given?

             

             So could it not be possible that Jesus was given authority to forgive sins from his God and father?

             

          • dean198
            ... There were a few cases of poor reasoning in your article: Rev ... her, Your sins are forgiven. And those who sat atthe table with Him began to say to
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 20, 2005
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              --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, <RevEvangelist@b...>
              wrote:
              > PROOFS FOR JESUS BEING DEITY

              There were a few cases of poor reasoning in your article:



              Rev
              > The savior has the power to forgive sins.
              >
              > Only God is able to forgive sins, Luke 7:48-50"And Jesus said to
              her, "Your sins are forgiven. "And those who sat atthe table with Him
              began to say to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"
              Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

              Reply
              This *could* be a proof of his divinity. There again, it could simply
              be a proof that Jesus was sent by God with the authority of God, and
              anointed with power by the Holy Spirit to function as the Messiah.
              Later he gives the power to forgive sins to his disciples, and they
              were not divine.

              Rev
              Showing those around him that his statement of forgiveness is true
              by giving them a physical example of his power. Jesus points to
              himself as the source of forgiveness, this is why the Pharisee's were
              so taken back, they were right, only God can forgive sins.

              reply
              He simply asserts that the Son of Man has authority on earth to
              forgive sins.



              Rev
              > "Luke 5:22: "But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he,
              answering, said unto them, why reason your in your hearts?' John 2:24-
              25."But Jesus did not commit himself unto them (believe in them) ,
              because he knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of
              man; for He knew what was in mans heart". Mt. 9:4"And Jesus, knowing
              their thoughts, said, Why think you evil in your hearts ." Someone
              who can read others thoughts and the intents of others hearts like
              Jesus means he is more than just a prophet or representative. This is
              certainly not psychic powers but an ability only reserved for God. We
              find consistently Jesus exercising the same abilities as God.

              Reply
              Jesus was a prophet, and by the power of the Spirit he healed, did
              good, and cast out demons. Just as prophets would know the counsels
              of peoples' hearts, so did Jesus. He operated in the gifts of
              prophecy and words of knowledge. Others did the same in scripture,
              both before and after Jesus.




              Rev
              > CREATOR OR CREATED
              The New Testament is not lacking in attributing divine creatorship to
              his hands in Jn.1:1-3 and Col.1:15-17. The Alpha and Omega, he is the
              architect of all things.

              Reply
              We recognise that God created the worlds through Jesus, his Word and
              Wisdom.

              Rev
              That he is God the master craftsman of Prov.8. the one who spoke and
              formed things to what they are today.

              Reply
              Actually he is the Wisdom of Proverbs 8.
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