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RE: Romans 3:10-11

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  • Robert Bowman
    Paul, You wrote:
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 31, 2004
      Paul,

      You wrote:

      << If I understand you correctly, you are saying that God chooses for what
      ever reason he has, to leads some to life and let others go to death. Yet
      this is not based on what we want or choose, but on His choice.
       
      That being the case it would appear that he wants some to die and some to
      live. But doesn' that contradict;
       
      KJV 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men
      count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any
      should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

      This verse is contradicted by your view OR you believe in Universal
      Salvation. >>

      Not at all. May I suggest that you review my paper, "The Five Points of
      Calvinism," in the files section of this list:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblicalapologetics/files/

      You'll find my comment on 2 Peter 3:9 and many other texts often cited in
      opposition to the position I am taking.

      So Paul--and I find I keep asking this question--do you have any response on
      the numerous biblical texts I have cited in support of my position?

      In Christ's service,
      Rob Bowman
    • Paul Leonard
      A.P. Rob, Do you believe that God s foreknowldege means that we will not change from what he saw and in fact cannot change because he foresaw it? I read your
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004

        A.P. Rob,

        Do you believe that God's "foreknowldege" means that we will not change from what he saw and in fact cannot change because he foresaw it?

        I read your points. The first section caught my eye;

        This seems to support predestination. We "cannot cooperate". Men only cooperate if God saw them doing so and then gives them the will and ability to do so.

        Yet if a person cannot cooperate then he is not sinning willfully because he can't do anything else. It seems that God created some to die for no purpose at all. It certainly doesn't bring any glory to God to have people suffer and die if they have no control over it at all.

        Yet the same words imply that man can choose what to do because it says they "don't want to". That implies free will. They choose not to. Seems contradictory

        Total Depravity

        Understanding the doctrine

        "Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."-Westminster Confession of Faith 9.3

        Better termed "total inability": Sinners have "lost all ability of will" to cooperate with God in salvation (and therefore must be operated upon by God)

        Note that the inability is an inability "of will," not of intellect or feeling, not a metaphysical defect; sinners cannot cooperate with God because they don�t want to

         

         

         

         

         


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      • Robert Bowman
        Paul, Sorry, that last message was a goof; I accidentally hit send before writing anything! We seem to continue having the same problem: I present biblical
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
          Paul,

          Sorry, that last message was a goof; I accidentally hit "send" before
          writing anything!

          We seem to continue having the same problem: I present biblical support for
          my position and instead of addressing the biblical texts, you raise
          extraneous objections.

          You wrote:

          << Do you believe that God's "foreknowldege" means that we will not change
          from what he saw and in fact cannot change because he foresaw it? >>

          If God foresees something, it must be. Mustn't it? What would it mean for
          God to foresee or foreknow something that doesn't happen?

          We cannot change what we do after we do it, can we? Now, God sees what I did
          yesterday. He knows what I did. Therefore, I cannot *not* do what I did. But
          that doesn't mean that I could not have done otherwise in the sense of not
          doing what I chose. No, I chose to do what I did, and God's knowing it
          doesn't alter my responsibility for my choice. Well, why should his seeing
          it *before* I do it alter that same responsibility?

          Imagine that I have a machine that allows me to view events of the past and
          the future on a video screen. If I see an event that occurred in the past,
          my seeing it does not prevent the persons involved in that event from doing
          what they choose to do. The same is true for any event that I might see
          happening in the future.

          I'm not asserting that this kind of "seeing" is all that is involved in
          God's relation to time and history. But I think the argument here shows that
          God's knowledge of the future is not necessarily inconsistent with human
          responsibility.

          You wrote:

          << I read your points. The first section caught my eye;
          This seems to support predestination. We "cannot cooperate". Men only
          cooperate if God saw them doing so and then gives them the will and ability
          to do so.
          Yet if a person cannot cooperate then he is not sinning willfully because he
          can't do anything else. It seems that God created some to die for no purpose
          at all. It certainly doesn't bring any glory to God to have people suffer
          and die if they have no control over it at all.
          Yet the same words imply that man can choose what to do because it says they
          "don't want to". That implies free will. They choose not to. Seems
          contradictory >>

          Take it up with the apostle Paul. He says the same thing.

          You misunderstand the doctrine when you say that "if a person cannot
          cooperate then he is not sinning willfully." The "cannot" is not a
          metaphysical inability, but a moral and/or spiritual ability. The child
          molester "can't help himself" in the sense that he has lost the moral
          ability to say no to his perverted desire; but of course he is still
          responsible for his actions because he does have the physical ability to
          walk away, to restrain himself from doing wrong. Sinners generally have the
          physical and mental ability to repent, to believe, and to obey God, but
          spiritually and morally they are in bondage to pride, unbelief, and sin.

          In Christ's service,
          Rob Bowman
        • Paul Leonard
          A.P. See below: Robert Bowman wrote: We seem to continue having the same problem: I present biblical support for my position and
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 3, 2004
            A.P. See below:

            Robert Bowman <robertbowman@...> wrote:
            We seem to continue having the same problem: I present biblical support for my position and instead of addressing the biblical texts, you raise extraneous objections.

            A.P. No, you present what you claim is Biblical support for your view. I question your view.

            ___________________________________________________________

            << Do you believe that God's "foreknowldege" means that we will not change
            from what he saw and in fact cannot change because he foresaw it? >>

            If God foresees something, it must be. Mustn't it? What would it mean for God to foresee or foreknow something that doesn't happen?

            A.P. Actualluy such a view contradicts your position that Goid is all powerful. If he SEES something he can't change it. That measn that God is a by stander and cannot alter what he SEES.If he sees everything for all eternity into the future then he cannot change anything at all.A scripture that shows that not ll that happens is what he wants to happen.

            KJV Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

            God neither commanded it nor had it come up into his heart. Yet it happened.

            _____________________________________________________________
            << I read your points. The first section caught my eye;
            This seems to support predestination. We "cannot cooperate". Men only cooperate if God saw them doing so and then gives them the will and ability to do so.
            Yet if a person cannot cooperate then he is not sinning willfully because he can't do anything else. It seems that God created some to die for no purpose at all. It certainly doesn't bring any glory to God to have people suffer and die if they have no control over it at all. Yet the same words imply that man can choose what to do because it says they
            "don't want to". That implies free will. They choose not to. Seems
            contradictory >>

            Take it up with the apostle Paul. He says the same thing.

            A.P. Paul contradicts himself?

            _______________________________________________________________

            You misunderstand the doctrine when you say that "if a person cannot cooperate then he is not sinning willfully." The "cannot" is not a metaphysical inability, but a moral and/or spiritual ability.

            A.P. But we are speakimng not of a metaphysical ability, so i dom't knwo whay that came up, but a physical ability. If we cannot sin willfully, a physical ability, then he must be made to sin. Either God makes him  sin or he choses to sin.

            ____________________________________________________________

            The child molester "can't help himself" in the sense that he has lost the moral ability to say no to his perverted desire; but of course he is still responsible for his actions because he does have the physical ability to walk away, to restrain himself from doing wrong. Sinners generally have the physical and mental ability to repent, to believe, and to obey God, but spiritually and morally they are in bondage to pride, unbelief, and sin.

            A.P. Again this contradicts predestination. IF he CAN "walk away" or as you say "restrain himself", and he CAN refuse to "walk away" from sin and is as you say "responsible for his actions", it is his free choice to do one or the other. Free will.





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          • Robert Bowman
            Paul, I wrote: We seem to continue having the same problem: I present biblical support for my position and instead of addressing the biblical texts, you raise
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 4, 2004
              Paul,

              I wrote:

              "We seem to continue having the same problem: I present biblical support for
              my position and instead of addressing the biblical texts, you raise
              extraneous objections."

              You replied:

              << No, you present what you claim is Biblical support for your view. I
              question your view. >>

              Paul, my meaning was and is plain: I presented biblical texts that I argued
              supported my position, and instead of addressing those biblical texts, you
              raised extraneous objections. Please address the point instead of trying to
              circumvent it by playing word games.

              I wrote:

              "If God foresees something, it must be. Mustn't it? What would it mean for
              God to foresee or foreknow something that doesn't happen?"

              You replied:

              << Actualluy such a view contradicts your position that Goid is all
              powerful. If he SEES something he can't change it. That measn that God is a
              by stander and cannot alter what he SEES. >>

              On the other hand, Paul, the Bible says:

              "He who answers a matter before he hears,
              It is folly and shame to him" (Prov. 18:13).

              My view is that God is all-powerful, but evidently yours is not, or you
              would not raise such an absurdly off-base criticism against the doctrine of
              divine omnipotence. That God is all-powerful does not mean he can do the
              self-contradictory. God cannot make 2 + 2 = 386.4792. He cannot and would
              not make good evil or evil good. God also cannot do anything contrary to his
              perfect moral character. For example, he cannot lie (Titus 1:2). If he knows
              that something is true, he cannot make it NOT true, since that is
              self-contradictory. Thus, if he knows that X will happen on April 5, 2004,
              he cannot change it so that X will NOT happen, since that would mean that
              God knows that X will happen and that X will not happen, and that is
              self-contradictory nonsense.

              Given that you are not addressing the biblical texts I cite and are
              misconstruing my position beyond recognition, there is no need for me to
              respond to the rest of your post.

              In Christ's service,
              Rob Bowman
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