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Re: [biblicalapologetics] women teaching in church

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  • Chris Criminger
    Hi Everyone, Someone said these issues come down to hermeneutics and I tend to agree. All I can say at that point is follow the argument and logic here and
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 5, 2004
      Hi Everyone,
      Someone said these issues come down to hermeneutics and I tend to agree.  All I can say at that point is follow the argument and logic here and for people to really think if they make sense both pastorally and holistically with the rest of scripture.  An elder must be a man . . .  An elder must be married .  . . An elder must have children (plural---that is more than one). And maybe I should add in, an "elder" has to be "old" to be an elder!.
       
      As one who has worked and seen so many divergent situations where people take these kinds of issues literally, I will give a few examples of how this has worked out in churches.  Single men are excluded from ministry and told they should get maried (and what's wrong with you for not being married already!).  I have witnessed a married man get presented as an Elder whose eyes were always wondering but he had never been divorced so he was qualified while another man who has been divorced (before he even became a Christian) and eyes never wondered from his wife is not even considered because he's somehow not a "one woman man."
       
      The most pastorally irresponsible things I have heard about in ministry is one church told an elder he had to step down from being an elder because his wife died (he no longer was the husband of one wife) and another church told an elder to step down from being an elder because one of his two children accidently got killed and he was no longer qualified because his "children" could no longer obey him since he had only one child now.
       
      And then we wonder why people leave the church . . . Chris C.
       
       
       
       
       
      *************
      sinbadthesailor0 <anjohnla@...> wrote:

      I had an opinion about this grey area. I think so many people have
      opinions about things like this where the biblical teaching seems to
      rub their societies social constructs the wrong way. I had a teacher
      who told a story about someone coming up to him after a sermon and
      saying,"Pastor your sermon really rubbed me the wrong way."
              He responded, "Well then I guess you had better turn around."
      I think this andecdote applies here sort of in that shifting( I
      should say deteriorating) social norms shouldn't drive our exegesis.
      Not that anyone was doing that. But are we going into the Word to
      gain understanding of the truth, or do we have an agenda to align the
      teaching of God with society. I think reflection on the whole counsel
      of God relating to women's issues would clear up many questions.
           For instance the qualifications for elders 1 Timothy 3:1-5  ESV
      1 Timothy 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the
      office of overseer, he desires a noble task.  2 Therefore an
      overseer... the husband of one wife,... 4 He must manage his own
      household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,  5
      for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how
      will he care for God's church?"
           The scripture seems to indicate that an elder should be part of
      a family not just that he is a man. God is teaching us about his plan
      for the church. God sees people, not all, joining together as one
      flesh and not acting in a vacuum. An elder it seems to me is someone
      who is part of a healthy family an knows how to manage that God given
      institution as a pre-req to managing God's larger institution the
      church. I know that Jesus taught some will be single for God. And the
      Lord remained single also despite the vitriolic pablum of psuedo
      scholars; whose crendtials are the best seller list.
          I know and have seen many women who are doing great things for
      God in many capacities within the Church. But my post was mainly to
      give another opinion not to preach or lecture, even though I am a man
      and have every right :) ---just kidding.





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    • Daniel Cook
      As interesting as these posts might be, they don t have anything to do with Biblical Apologetics - defending the Bible (and Christian faith) from sceptics and
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 5, 2004
        As interesting as these posts might be, they don't
        have anything to do with Biblical Apologetics -
        defending the Bible (and Christian faith) from
        sceptics and heretics. This is not a general biblical
        studies forum.

        I might though recommend CARM discussion boards:

        http://www.carm.org/

        and then go to TOPICAL.

        Dan

        --- Chris Criminger <chris_criminger@...>
        wrote:
        > Hi Everyone,
        > Someone said these issues come down to hermeneutics
        > and I tend to agree. All I can say at that point is
        > follow the argument and logic here and for people to
        > really think if they make sense both pastorally and
        > holistically with the rest of scripture. An elder
        > must be a man . . . An elder must be married . . .
        > An elder must have children (plural---that is more
        > than one). And maybe I should add in, an "elder" has
        > to be "old" to be an elder!.
        >
        > As one who has worked and seen so many divergent
        > situations where people take these kinds of issues
        > literally, I will give a few examples of how this
        > has worked out in churches. Single men are excluded
        > from ministry and told they should get maried (and
        > what's wrong with you for not being married
        > already!). I have witnessed a married man get
        > presented as an Elder whose eyes were always
        > wondering but he had never been divorced so he was
        > qualified while another man who has been divorced
        > (before he even became a Christian) and eyes never
        > wondered from his wife is not even considered
        > because he's somehow not a "one woman man."
        >
        > The most pastorally irresponsible things I have
        > heard about in ministry is one church told an elder
        > he had to step down from being an elder because his
        > wife died (he no longer was the husband of one wife)
        > and another church told an elder to step down from
        > being an elder because one of his two children
        > accidently got killed and he was no longer qualified
        > because his "children" could no longer obey him
        > since he had only one child now.
        >
        > And then we wonder why people leave the church . . .
        > Chris C.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > *************
        > sinbadthesailor0 <anjohnla@...> wrote:
        >
        > I had an opinion about this grey area. I think so
        > many people have
        > opinions about things like this where the biblical
        > teaching seems to
        > rub their societies social constructs the wrong way.
        > I had a teacher
        > who told a story about someone coming up to him
        > after a sermon and
        > saying,"Pastor your sermon really rubbed me the
        > wrong way."
        > He responded, "Well then I guess you had
        > better turn around."
        > I think this andecdote applies here sort of in that
        > shifting( I
        > should say deteriorating) social norms shouldn't
        > drive our exegesis.
        > Not that anyone was doing that. But are we going
        > into the Word to
        > gain understanding of the truth, or do we have an
        > agenda to align the
        > teaching of God with society. I think reflection on
        > the whole counsel
        > of God relating to women's issues would clear up
        > many questions.
        > For instance the qualifications for elders 1
        > Timothy 3:1-5 ESV
        > 1 Timothy 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone
        > aspires to the
        > office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2
        > Therefore an
        > overseer... the husband of one wife,... 4 He must
        > manage his own
        > household well, with all dignity keeping his
        > children submissive, 5
        > for if someone does not know how to manage his own
        > household, how
        > will he care for God's church?"
        > The scripture seems to indicate that an elder
        > should be part of
        > a family not just that he is a man. God is teaching
        > us about his plan
        > for the church. God sees people, not all, joining
        > together as one
        > flesh and not acting in a vacuum. An elder it seems
        > to me is someone
        > who is part of a healthy family an knows how to
        > manage that God given
        > institution as a pre-req to managing God's larger
        > institution the
        > church. I know that Jesus taught some will be single
        > for God. And the
        > Lord remained single also despite the vitriolic
        > pablum of psuedo
        > scholars; whose crendtials are the best seller list.
        >
        > I know and have seen many women who are doing
        > great things for
        > God in many capacities within the Church. But my
        > post was mainly to
        > give another opinion not to preach or lecture, even
        > though I am a man
        > and have every right :) ---just kidding.
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Robert Bowman
        All, Please remember the list rules. Discussions on subjects not directly relating to the reliability of the Bible should be limited to the interpretation of
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 5, 2004
          All,

          Please remember the list rules. Discussions on subjects not directly
          relating to the reliability of the Bible should be limited to the
          interpretation of specific biblical texts.

          In Christ's service,

          Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
          Center for Biblical Apologetics
          Online: http://www.biblicalapologetics.net
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