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RE: [biblicalapologetics] The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

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  • Jeff Koenig
    I would have a problem with any NT book being written by a woman. Paul taught that he did not allow a woman to exercise authority or teach in church, because
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 31, 2004
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      I would have a problem with any NT book being written by a woman.  Paul taught that he did not allow a woman to exercise authority or teach in church, because the woman was created after the man, and she is the one that was deceived.  How much more would the same principles apply to teaching that applies to the entire Church, rather than a local congregation.  If there was a book purporting to be written by a woman disciple and to be authoritative as Scripture, the fact that it was written by a woman along would be grounds for rejecting it, regardless of its content. 
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Chris Criminger [mailto:chris_criminger@...]
      Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:44 AM
      To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

      Han J. Lee said,
      Dan Brown, along w/ many other liberal scholars claim that the
      disciple whom Jesus loved, mentioned several times in the Gospel of
      John, was Mary Magdalene, and that she also wrote the fourth Gospel.

      While I do not personally hold to this view, after reading a few
      arguments for it, I wanted to raise a few questions --

      If the author of the fourth Gospel, and also the disciple whom Jesus
      loved was indeed Mary Magdalene, would it pose a serious problem to
      any of the essential Christian doctrines?
      RE:  Hi Han,
      Good question . . . My initial response is "no" :-)  I for one don't know what difference it would make if one of the N.T. documents even like Hebrews was written by a woman, what difference that would make in the end?????
       
      Han said,
      The liberal scholars argue that the only reason the church attributed
      the fourth Gospel to the authorship of John of Zebedee was that it
      was Irenaeus' childhood recollection of what Polycarp of Smyrna, a
      disciple of John, taught him.  Is this true? or are there more
      reasons to believe, other than exegeting from the scripture itself,
      that led us to believe that John of Zebedee was the author of the
      fourth Gospel?

      RE:  I find it interesting that a strong reason for authorship is simply reversed into doubting Polycarp testimony (or Iranaeus's memory) who Polycarp was probably a disciple of one or several of the early apostles.  I think history needs to be examined critically but I find these kind of arguments to be quite nonsensical without more corroborating evidence.  From the early church Fathers, it certainly was not the case that Iranaeus was the only one who spoke about Johannine authorship.  So does other contemporaries in the second century like Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian!  There are also later references to earlier references such as Papias about John as the fourth Gospel writer in Eusebius.

      Well, that's a start  -  Chris C.

      PS  -  For further study on Johannine authorship, I recommend
      D. A. Carson's "The Gospel According to John" as a good starting place.
       

       


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    • Chris Criminger
      Jeff said, I would have a problem with any NT book being written by a woman. Paul taught that he did not allow a woman to exercise authority or teach in
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 1, 2004
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        Jeff said,
        I would have a problem with any NT book being written by a woman.  Paul taught that he did not allow a woman to exercise authority or teach in church, because the woman was created after the man, and she is the one that was deceived.  How much more would the same principles apply to teaching that applies to the entire Church, rather than a local congregation.  If there was a book purporting to be written by a woman disciple and to be authoritative as Scripture, the fact that it was written by a woman along would be grounds for rejecting it, regardless of its content.
         
        RE:  Hi  Jeff,
        Whether it's preaching or teaching, all of it is under the authority of God, God's Word, the elders or leaders of a church, and even the congregation.  In other words, it's all *delegated authority*!  I wouild rather have a woman teacher who taught The Word properly than a man who did not.  I find it strange logic that women are often entrusted to teaching the Word of God to children which has more influence of mollding and shaping people's attitudes, beliefs, and behavioir than anything they do as an adult but they can't teach a boy who just turned 18 (or fit in your own magic number) because now he is a "man?"  Unfortunately, some of our theology really *sounds* like in the end, the disciples whom Jesus loved most are men! (I mean, all twelve disciples were *male* or so the argument goes). The situation in the Ephesian Church in First Timothy was one of power plays by women trying to grab the positions of Elders who did the teaching in the church.  The issue is not that woman can not teach or even teach men but that they were trying to grab leadership positions in the church.
         
        Shalom  -  Chris C.
         
         
         
         
        ******************** 
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chris Criminger [mailto:chris_criminger@...]
        Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:44 AM
        To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

        Han J. Lee said,
        Dan Brown, along w/ many other liberal scholars claim that the
        disciple whom Jesus loved, mentioned several times in the Gospel of
        John, was Mary Magdalene, and that she also wrote the fourth Gospel.

        While I do not personally hold to this view, after reading a few
        arguments for it, I wanted to raise a few questions --

        If the author of the fourth Gospel, and also the disciple whom Jesus
        loved was indeed Mary Magdalene, would it pose a serious problem to
        any of the essential Christian doctrines?
        RE:  Hi Han,
        Good question . . . My initial response is "no" :-)  I for one don't know what difference it would make if one of the N.T. documents even like Hebrews was written by a woman, what difference that would make in the end?????
         
        Han said,
        The liberal scholars argue that the only reason the church attributed
        the fourth Gospel to the authorship of John of Zebedee was that it
        was Irenaeus' childhood recollection of what Polycarp of Smyrna, a
        disciple of John, taught him.  Is this true? or are there more
        reasons to believe, other than exegeting from the scripture itself,
        that led us to believe that John of Zebedee was the author of the
        fourth Gospel?

        RE:  I find it interesting that a strong reason for authorship is simply reversed into doubting Polycarp testimony (or Iranaeus's memory) who Polycarp was probably a disciple of one or several of the early apostles.  I think history needs to be examined critically but I find these kind of arguments to be quite nonsensical without more corroborating evidence.  From the early church Fathers, it certainly was not the case that Iranaeus was the only one who spoke about Johannine authorship.  So does other contemporaries in the second century like Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian!  There are also later references to earlier references such as Papias about John as the fourth Gospel writer in Eusebius.

        Well, that's a start  -  Chris C.

        PS  -  For further study on Johannine authorship, I recommend
        D. A. Carson's "The Gospel According to John" as a good starting place.
         

         


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      • Jeff Koenig
        So you think Paul meant to say I do not all a woman to exercise authority over a man (by usurping the role of an elder). But then why did Paul actually say
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 1, 2004
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          So you think Paul meant to say "I do not all a woman to exercise authority over a man" (by usurping the role of an elder).  But then why did Paul actually say "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."  Seems to me like he was concerned with teaching, not only with women trying to "grab" the poisition of Elders.  The problems are related, since both involve an inversion of the created order (which Paul appeals to -- that Adam was created first, then Eve).  Also, Paul's argument about Eve's having been deceived seems particularly pertinent to teaching, more so than to usurpation. 
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Chris Criminger [mailto:chris_criminger@...]
          Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 6:30 AM
          To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [biblicalapologetics] The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

          Jeff said,
          I would have a problem with any NT book being written by a woman.  Paul taught that he did not allow a woman to exercise authority or teach in church, because the woman was created after the man, and she is the one that was deceived.  How much more would the same principles apply to teaching that applies to the entire Church, rather than a local congregation.  If there was a book purporting to be written by a woman disciple and to be authoritative as Scripture, the fact that it was written by a woman along would be grounds for rejecting it, regardless of its content.
           
          RE:  Hi  Jeff,
          Whether it's preaching or teaching, all of it is under the authority of God, God's Word, the elders or leaders of a church, and even the congregation.  In other words, it's all *delegated authority*!  I wouild rather have a woman teacher who taught The Word properly than a man who did not.  I find it strange logic that women are often entrusted to teaching the Word of God to children which has more influence of mollding and shaping people's attitudes, beliefs, and behavioir than anything they do as an adult but they can't teach a boy who just turned 18 (or fit in your own magic number) because now he is a "man?"  Unfortunately, some of our theology really *sounds* like in the end, the disciples whom Jesus loved most are men! (I mean, all twelve disciples were *male* or so the argument goes). The situation in the Ephesian Church in First Timothy was one of power plays by women trying to grab the positions of Elders who did the teaching in the church.  The issue is not that woman can not teach or even teach men but that they were trying to grab leadership positions in the church.
           
          Shalom  -  Chris C.
           
           
           
           
          ******************** 
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Chris Criminger [mailto:chris_criminger@...]
          Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:44 AM
          To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

          Han J. Lee said,
          Dan Brown, along w/ many other liberal scholars claim that the
          disciple whom Jesus loved, mentioned several times in the Gospel of
          John, was Mary Magdalene, and that she also wrote the fourth Gospel.

          While I do not personally hold to this view, after reading a few
          arguments for it, I wanted to raise a few questions --

          If the author of the fourth Gospel, and also the disciple whom Jesus
          loved was indeed Mary Magdalene, would it pose a serious problem to
          any of the essential Christian doctrines?
          RE:  Hi Han,
          Good question . . . My initial response is "no" :-)  I for one don't know what difference it would make if one of the N.T. documents even like Hebrews was written by a woman, what difference that would make in the end?????
           
          Han said,
          The liberal scholars argue that the only reason the church attributed
          the fourth Gospel to the authorship of John of Zebedee was that it
          was Irenaeus' childhood recollection of what Polycarp of Smyrna, a
          disciple of John, taught him.  Is this true? or are there more
          reasons to believe, other than exegeting from the scripture itself,
          that led us to believe that John of Zebedee was the author of the
          fourth Gospel?

          RE:  I find it interesting that a strong reason for authorship is simply reversed into doubting Polycarp testimony (or Iranaeus's memory) who Polycarp was probably a disciple of one or several of the early apostles.  I think history needs to be examined critically but I find these kind of arguments to be quite nonsensical without more corroborating evidence.  From the early church Fathers, it certainly was not the case that Iranaeus was the only one who spoke about Johannine authorship.  So does other contemporaries in the second century like Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian!  There are also later references to earlier references such as Papias about John as the fourth Gospel writer in Eusebius.

          Well, that's a start  -  Chris C.

          PS  -  For further study on Johannine authorship, I recommend
          D. A. Carson's "The Gospel According to John" as a good starting place.
           

           


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        • supergohanlee
          I think that Paul s teaching does not preclude a woman from writing any of the NT books. (Although I do not personally hold to the view that the fourth Gospel
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 1, 2004
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            I think that Paul's teaching does not preclude a woman from writing
            any of the NT books. (Although I do not personally hold to the view
            that the fourth Gospel was written by a woman.) I recently read an
            interesting explanation of the verse you site "I do not permit a
            woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
            For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one
            deceived;" (1 Timothy 2:12) by Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason. Mr.
            Koukl believes that the words man and woman in the above passage was
            actually mistranslated and should be "husband" and "wife." So Mr.
            Koukl paraphrases the verse as "Let a wife quietly receive
            instruction with entire submissiveness; but I don't allow a wife to
            teach or usurp the authority of her husband, but to remain quiet."
            I really like Koukl's interpretation, since it seems to be coherent
            with Paul's general stance on women's role in the church -- he
            allowed Priscilla to teach and even commended her for doing so.

            Okay, but enough of women's authority in the church -- that's not the
            topic I had originally intended. Let's get back to the subject of
            the "Disciple whom Jesus Loved" in the Gospel of John and the alleged
            Mary Magdalene's authorship of the Gospel of John.


            Han J. Lee




            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Chris Criminger
            <chris_criminger@y...> wrote:
            > Jeff said,
            > I would have a problem with any NT book being written by a woman.
            Paul taught that he did not allow a woman to exercise authority or
            teach in church, because the woman was created after the man, and she
            is the one that was deceived. How much more would the same
            principles apply to teaching that applies to the entire Church,
            rather than a local congregation. If there was a book purporting to
            be written by a woman disciple and to be authoritative as Scripture,
            the fact that it was written by a woman along would be grounds for
            rejecting it, regardless of its content.
            >
            > RE: Hi Jeff,
            > Whether it's preaching or teaching, all of it is under the
            authority of God, God's Word, the elders or leaders of a church, and
            even the congregation. In other words, it's all *delegated
            authority*! I wouild rather have a woman teacher who taught The Word
            properly than a man who did not. I find it strange logic that women
            are often entrusted to teaching the Word of God to children which has
            more influence of mollding and shaping people's attitudes, beliefs,
            and behavioir than anything they do as an adult but they can't teach
            a boy who just turned 18 (or fit in your own magic number) because
            now he is a "man?" Unfortunately, some of our theology really
            *sounds* like in the end, the disciples whom Jesus loved most are
            men! (I mean, all twelve disciples were *male* or so the argument
            goes). The situation in the Ephesian Church in First Timothy was one
            of power plays by women trying to grab the positions of Elders who
            did the teaching in the church. The issue is not that woman can
            > not teach or even teach men but that they were trying to grab
            leadership positions in the church.
            >
            > Shalom - Chris C.
            >
            >
            >
          • Jeff Koenig
            I think the context in 1 tim 2 is more about conduct in public assembly, rather than within the family. verse 8 seems to be speaking about public prayer by
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 2, 2004
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              I think the context in 1 tim 2 is more about conduct in public assembly, rather than within the family.  verse 8 seems to be speaking about public prayer by men.  then v. 9 to the end of the chapter is about women (what they should wear, how they should act, etc.).  Then chapter 3 is about the qualifications for overseers and deacons in the church.  In 3:15 Paul explains that these instructions were given "that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God.  Chapter 1 is about refuting doctrinal error through public teaching. 
               
              Also, Paul gives a similar teaching concerning the role of women in 1 cor. 14:34, basing it on "the Law" (possibly referring to Gen. 2 as in 1 Tim 2).  There, the context clear is that of the public assembly and proper conduct in that place.
               
              If women can't teach in the church (at least where that would amount to exercising authority over men, as where the woman is the senior teaching pastor), then women can't be apostles and write NT books.
              -----Original Message-----
              From: supergohanlee [mailto:supergohanlee@...]
              Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 11:24 PM
              To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved


              I think that Paul's teaching does not preclude a woman from writing
              any of the NT books.  (Although I do not personally hold to the view
              that the fourth Gospel was written by a woman.)  I recently read an
              interesting explanation of the verse you site "I do not permit a
              woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
              For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one
              deceived;" (1 Timothy 2:12) by Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason.  Mr.
              Koukl believes that the words man and woman in the above passage was
              actually mistranslated and should be "husband" and "wife."  So Mr.
              Koukl paraphrases the verse as "Let a wife quietly receive
              instruction with entire submissiveness; but I don't allow a wife to
              teach or usurp the authority of her husband, but to remain quiet."
              I really like Koukl's interpretation, since it seems to be coherent
              with Paul's general stance on women's role in the church -- he
              allowed Priscilla to teach and even commended her for doing so.

              Okay, but enough of women's authority in the church -- that's not the
              topic I had originally intended. Let's get back to the subject of
              the "Disciple whom Jesus Loved" in the Gospel of John and the alleged
              Mary Magdalene's authorship of the Gospel of John.


              Han J. Lee




              --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Chris Criminger
              <chris_criminger@y...> wrote:
              > Jeff said,
              > I would have a problem with any NT book being written by a woman. 
              Paul taught that he did not allow a woman to exercise authority or
              teach in church, because the woman was created after the man, and she
              is the one that was deceived.  How much more would the same
              principles apply to teaching that applies to the entire Church,
              rather than a local congregation.  If there was a book purporting to
              be written by a woman disciple and to be authoritative as Scripture,
              the fact that it was written by a woman along would be grounds for
              rejecting it, regardless of its content.

              > RE:  Hi  Jeff,
              > Whether it's preaching or teaching, all of it is under the
              authority of God, God's Word, the elders or leaders of a church, and
              even the congregation.  In other words, it's all *delegated
              authority*!  I wouild rather have a woman teacher who taught The Word
              properly than a man who did not.  I find it strange logic that women
              are often entrusted to teaching the Word of God to children which has
              more influence of mollding and shaping people's attitudes, beliefs,
              and behavioir than anything they do as an adult but they can't teach
              a boy who just turned 18 (or fit in your own magic number) because
              now he is a "man?"  Unfortunately, some of our theology really
              *sounds* like in the end, the disciples whom Jesus loved most are
              men! (I mean, all twelve disciples were *male* or so the argument
              goes).  The situation in the Ephesian Church in First Timothy was one
              of power plays by women trying to grab the positions of Elders who
              did the teaching in the church.  The issue is not that woman can
              >  not teach or even teach men but that they were trying to grab
              leadership positions in the church.

              > Shalom  -  Chris C.







            • Chris Criminger
              Jeff said, Do you think Paul meant to say I do not all a woman to exercise authority over a man (by usurping the role of an elder). But then why did Paul
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 2, 2004
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                Jeff said,
                Do you think Paul meant to say "I do not all a woman to exercise authority over a man" (by usurping the role of an elder).  But then why did Paul actually say "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."  Seems to me like he was concerned with teaching, not only with women trying to "grab" the poisition of Elders.  The problems are related, since both involve an inversion of the created order (which Paul appeals to -- that Adam was created first, then Eve).  Also, Paul's argument about Eve's having been deceived seems particularly pertinent to teaching, more so than to usurpation. 
                 
                RE:  Hi Jeff,
                I agree that teaching and Elders are related (take out our un-inspired chapter divisions and connect chapter two with chapter three).  Elders were the teaching elders in the early church.  Although I personally would not have a problem with a book being written by a woman (anyone read any Beth Moore's books or Anne Graham Lotz lately?).  Anne is also a better preacher than a lot of men preachers that I have heard; I also want to add that I don't think 1 Tim.2 is speaking about husband and wife relationship within the context.  The context of the pastoral epistles is false teaching in the church and Paul addresses the men problem in v. 8 and the women problem in the following verses.
                 
                Shalom  -  Chris C.
                 
                 
                 
                **************** 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Chris Criminger [mailto:chris_criminger@...]
                Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 6:30 AM
                To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [biblicalapologetics] The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

                Jeff said,
                I would have a problem with any NT book being written by a woman.  Paul taught that he did not allow a woman to exercise authority or teach in church, because the woman was created after the man, and she is the one that was deceived.  How much more would the same principles apply to teaching that applies to the entire Church, rather than a local congregation.  If there was a book purporting to be written by a woman disciple and to be authoritative as Scripture, the fact that it was written by a woman along would be grounds for rejecting it, regardless of its content.
                 
                RE:  Hi  Jeff,
                Whether it's preaching or teaching, all of it is under the authority of God, God's Word, the elders or leaders of a church, and even the congregation.  In other words, it's all *delegated authority*!  I wouild rather have a woman teacher who taught The Word properly than a man who did not.  I find it strange logic that women are often entrusted to teaching the Word of God to children which has more influence of mollding and shaping people's attitudes, beliefs, and behavioir than anything they do as an adult but they can't teach a boy who just turned 18 (or fit in your own magic number) because now he is a "man?"  Unfortunately, some of our theology really *sounds* like in the end, the disciples whom Jesus loved most are men! (I mean, all twelve disciples were *male* or so the argument goes). The situation in the Ephesian Church in First Timothy was one of power plays by women trying to grab the positions of Elders who did the teaching in the church.  The issue is not that woman can not teach or even teach men but that they were trying to grab leadership positions in the church.
                 
                Shalom  -  Chris C.
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ******************** 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Chris Criminger [mailto:chris_criminger@...]
                Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:44 AM
                To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

                Han J. Lee said,
                Dan Brown, along w/ many other liberal scholars claim that the
                disciple whom Jesus loved, mentioned several times in the Gospel of
                John, was Mary Magdalene, and that she also wrote the fourth Gospel.

                While I do not personally hold to this view, after reading a few
                arguments for it, I wanted to raise a few questions --

                If the author of the fourth Gospel, and also the disciple whom Jesus
                loved was indeed Mary Magdalene, would it pose a serious problem to
                any of the essential Christian doctrines?
                RE:  Hi Han,
                Good question . . . My initial response is "no" :-)  I for one don't know what difference it would make if one of the N.T. documents even like Hebrews was written by a woman, what difference that would make in the end?????
                 
                Han said,
                The liberal scholars argue that the only reason the church attributed
                the fourth Gospel to the authorship of John of Zebedee was that it
                was Irenaeus' childhood recollection of what Polycarp of Smyrna, a
                disciple of John, taught him.  Is this true? or are there more
                reasons to believe, other than exegeting from the scripture itself,
                that led us to believe that John of Zebedee was the author of the
                fourth Gospel?

                RE:  I find it interesting that a strong reason for authorship is simply reversed into doubting Polycarp testimony (or Iranaeus's memory) who Polycarp was probably a disciple of one or several of the early apostles.  I think history needs to be examined critically but I find these kind of arguments to be quite nonsensical without more corroborating evidence.  From the early church Fathers, it certainly was not the case that Iranaeus was the only one who spoke about Johannine authorship.  So does other contemporaries in the second century like Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian!  There are also later references to earlier references such as Papias about John as the fourth Gospel writer in Eusebius.

                Well, that's a start  -  Chris C.

                PS  -  For further study on Johannine authorship, I recommend
                D. A. Carson's "The Gospel According to John" as a good starting place.
                 

                 


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              • Chris Criminger
                Jeff said, If women can t teach in the church (at least where that would amount to exercising authority over men, as where the woman is the senior teaching
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 4, 2004
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                  Jeff said,
                  If women can't teach in the church (at least where that would amount to exercising authority over men, as where the woman is the senior teaching pastor), then women can't be apostles and write NT books.
                  Hi Jeff and all,
                  I quess I see so many inconsistencies with people that strongly limit the role of women in the church that it seems to me, the only ones truly consistent are the ones who don't allow women to teach at all! (which few would ever suggest).  So here is my litany of questions:
                   
                  1.  Are women more gullible or deceivable than men? (and if they are, why would they teach other women or children then that are even more easily deceived?).
                   
                  2.  Is the senior pastor preaching or teaching or both?  How do folks distinguish this and is 1 Tim.2 really talking about forbidding women from the role of Pastor?  And did not Priscilla teach Apollos who was man?
                   
                  3.  If women can not teach men, then does the great commission some how become more limited to who women can teach and disciple and baptize?  Should all women serving as missionaries then stop teaching and preaching the gospel to adult men? (and when is a man an adult?  Isn't age kind of a cultural thing and are there not cultural modifiers when it comes to the Scriptures dealing with male and female issues?).
                   
                  4.  Is not much of our Sunday School church curriculum and even Hymns that have theology and doctrine in them written by some women?
                   
                  5.  Lastly, what is the authority that a teacher has anyway?  Where does it come from and how is it recognized.  It seems like many churches say for example that when someone stands behind the pulpit, that is an authoratative preaching and teaching role.  So when a man does it "He's preaching the Word!" and when a woman does it "She's sharing her heart about the Word of God." 
                   
                  Are not current church practices very inconsistent when it comes to what women can and can not do?
                   
                  Grace and peace  -  Chris C.
                   
                   
                   
                   


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                • Jeff Koenig
                  Clearly, there are situations where a woman can teach. For instance, they can teach younger women and/or children in the church. Whatever 1 Tim. 2 means, it
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 4, 2004
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                    Clearly, there are situations where a woman can teach.  For instance, they can teach younger women and/or children in the church.  Whatever 1 Tim. 2 means, it can't mean no teaching for women at all, since the NT expressly says older women should teach the younger ones. 
                     
                    I don't think this limitation has anything to do with evangelism or the great commission.  Clearly, all christians are called to be witnesses for Christ.
                     
                    The question of women missionaries is interesting.  Even if the missionary planting a church is a women, I beleive over time the church should move to male elders and a male senior pastor/teacher.
                     
                    I think Paul's resort to the order of creation in 1 Tim. 2, 1 Cor. 14 and elsewhere makes clear that the male/female roles in the family and in church should be in accord with that natural order.
                     
                    I do think, based on Paul's comment about Eve being deceived, that part of the reason for the restriction is to avoid false teaching; it seems hard to avoid the conclusion that Paul thought women were somehow by nature more likely to be deceived, though there are obvious exceptions.
                     
                    What the bible teaches on this subject is one thing, what churches are doing today is another.  Many people try to avoid 1 Tim. 2 or twist its meaning to fit in with feminist trends.
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Chris Criminger [mailto:chris_criminger@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 4:24 PM
                    To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Consistent Inconsistencies:

                    Jeff said,
                    If women can't teach in the church (at least where that would amount to exercising authority over men, as where the woman is the senior teaching pastor), then women can't be apostles and write NT books.
                    Hi Jeff and all,
                    I quess I see so many inconsistencies with people that strongly limit the role of women in the church that it seems to me, the only ones truly consistent are the ones who don't allow women to teach at all! (which few would ever suggest).  So here is my litany of questions:
                     
                    1.  Are women more gullible or deceivable than men? (and if they are, why would they teach other women or children then that are even more easily deceived?).
                     
                    2.  Is the senior pastor preaching or teaching or both?  How do folks distinguish this and is 1 Tim.2 really talking about forbidding women from the role of Pastor?  And did not Priscilla teach Apollos who was man?
                     
                    3.  If women can not teach men, then does the great commission some how become more limited to who women can teach and disciple and baptize?  Should all women serving as missionaries then stop teaching and preaching the gospel to adult men? (and when is a man an adult?  Isn't age kind of a cultural thing and are there not cultural modifiers when it comes to the Scriptures dealing with male and female issues?).
                     
                    4.  Is not much of our Sunday School church curriculum and even Hymns that have theology and doctrine in them written by some women?
                     
                    5.  Lastly, what is the authority that a teacher has anyway?  Where does it come from and how is it recognized.  It seems like many churches say for example that when someone stands behind the pulpit, that is an authoratative preaching and teaching role.  So when a man does it "He's preaching the Word!" and when a woman does it "She's sharing her heart about the Word of God." 
                     
                    Are not current church practices very inconsistent when it comes to what women can and can not do?
                     
                    Grace and peace  -  Chris C.
                     
                     
                  • nomad@nomadicoder.com
                    Hi all, I came across a related passage that had me scratching my head. Romans 16:1-2 says I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 4, 2004
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                      Hi all,

                      I came across a related passage that had me scratching my head.

                      Romans 16:1-2 says "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant
                      of the church which is at Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord in
                      a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter
                      she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of
                      many, and of myself as well."

                      Here Paul asks the commends the Romans into the trust of Phoebe. First,
                      that she is a servant of the Cenchrean church, and second that she has
                      been a helper of many, she seems to have been a deaconess. But if she
                      is a deaconess, then that seems to violate I Tim 3:8-12. My reading of
                      the NASB version of I Tim 3:11 seems to include women as deaconesses.
                      But can "women" can be translated as "wives." and this is supposed to
                      apply to the wife of a deacon? The KJV does, but it draws this as an
                      inference. The on-line Bible I checked phrases it this way, "Even so
                      [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all
                      things."

                      Back to Romans... The Romans are to "help her in whatever matter she may
                      have need of [them]," Paul is asking the Roman church to follow her
                      directions. In any event, Paul reconizes this woman has a leadership
                      role in the church.

                      Are these contradictions? I don't think so. If she is a deaconess,
                      which I believe she is, then she must carry out her duties as a servant
                      of the church. If there men assist her, then in order for her to carry
                      out the service with which she has been entrusted, she, by necessity,
                      must tell them what needs to be done.


                      Steven


                      Chris Criminger wrote:

                      > Jeff said,
                      > If women can't teach in the church (at least where that would
                      > amount to exercising authority over men, as where the woman is the
                      > senior teaching pastor), then women can't be apostles and write NT
                      > books.
                      > Hi Jeff and all,
                      > I quess I see so many inconsistencies with people that strongly
                      > limit the role of women in the church that it seems to me, the
                      > only ones truly consistent are the ones who don't allow women to
                      > teach at all! (which few would ever suggest). So here is my
                      > litany of questions:
                      >
                      > 1. Are women more gullible or deceivable than men? (and if they
                      > are, why would they teach other women or children then that are
                      > even more easily deceived?).
                      >
                      > 2. Is the senior pastor preaching or teaching or both? How do
                      > folks distinguish this and is 1 Tim.2 really talking about
                      > forbidding women from the role of Pastor? And did not Priscilla
                      > teach Apollos who was man?
                      >
                      > 3. If women can not teach men, then does the great commission
                      > some how become more limited to who women can teach and disciple
                      > and baptize? Should all women serving as missionaries then stop
                      > teaching and preaching the gospel to adult men? (and when is a man
                      > an adult? Isn't age kind of a cultural thing and are there not
                      > cultural modifiers when it comes to the Scriptures dealing with
                      > male and female issues?).
                      >
                      > 4. Is not much of our Sunday School church curriculum and even
                      > Hymns that have theology and doctrine in them written by some women?
                      >
                      > 5. Lastly, what is the authority that a teacher has anyway?
                      > Where does it come from and how is it recognized. It seems like
                      > many churches say for example that when someone stands behind the
                      > pulpit, that is an authoratative preaching and teaching role. So
                      > when a man does it "He's preaching the Word!" and when a woman
                      > does it "She's sharing her heart about the Word of God."
                      >
                      > Are not current church practices very inconsistent when it comes
                      > to what women can and can not do?
                      >
                      > Grace and peace - Chris C.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Jeff Koenig
                      I don t know whether Phoebe held a formal office of deaconess, or was just a servant of the Cenchrea church (doing some sort of ministry on their behalf).
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 5, 2004
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                        Message
                        I don't know whether Phoebe held a formal office of deaconess, or was just a "servant" of the Cenchrea church (doing some sort of ministry on their behalf).  In any event, though, I don't think her informing the romans of her needs (under Paul's direction) would amount to exercising authority over the male elders/pastors in Rome, or that their helping her would have amounted to submission to her authoritry.
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: nomad@... [mailto:nomad@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 6:21 PM
                        To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] Consistent Inconsistencies:

                        Hi all,

                        I came across a related passage that had me scratching my head.

                        Romans 16:1-2 says "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant
                        of the church which is at Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord in
                        a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter
                        she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of
                        many, and of myself as well."

                        Here Paul asks the commends the Romans into the trust of Phoebe.  First,
                        that she is a servant of the Cenchrean church, and second that she has
                        been a helper of many, she seems to have been a deaconess.  But if she
                        is a deaconess, then that seems to violate I Tim 3:8-12.  My reading of
                        the NASB version of I Tim 3:11 seems to include women as deaconesses. 
                        But can "women" can be translated as "wives." and this is supposed to
                        apply to the wife of a deacon?  The KJV does, but it draws this as an
                        inference.  The on-line Bible I checked phrases it this way, "Even so
                        [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all
                        things."

                        Back to Romans... The Romans are to "help her in whatever matter she may
                        have need of [them]," Paul is asking the Roman church to follow her
                        directions.  In any event, Paul reconizes this woman has a leadership
                        role in the church.

                        Are these contradictions?  I don't think so.  If she is a deaconess,
                        which I believe she is, then she must carry out her duties as a servant
                        of the church.  If there men assist her, then in order for her to carry
                        out the service with which she has been entrusted,  she, by necessity,
                        must tell them what needs to be done.


                        Steven


                        Chris Criminger wrote:

                        >     Jeff said,
                        >     If women can't teach in the church (at least where that would
                        >     amount to exercising authority over men, as where the woman is the
                        >     senior teaching pastor), then women can't be apostles and write NT
                        >     books.
                        >     Hi Jeff and all,
                        >     I quess I see so many inconsistencies with people that strongly
                        >     limit the role of women in the church that it seems to me, the
                        >     only ones truly consistent are the ones who don't allow women to
                        >     teach at all! (which few would ever suggest).  So here is my
                        >     litany of questions:
                        >     
                        >     1.  Are women more gullible or deceivable than men? (and if they
                        >     are, why would they teach other women or children then that are
                        >     even more easily deceived?).
                        >     
                        >     2.  Is the senior pastor preaching or teaching or both?  How do
                        >     folks distinguish this and is 1 Tim.2 really talking about
                        >     forbidding women from the role of Pastor?  And did not Priscilla
                        >     teach Apollos who was man?
                        >     
                        >     3.  If women can not teach men, then does the great commission
                        >     some how become more limited to who women can teach and disciple
                        >     and baptize?  Should all women serving as missionaries then stop
                        >     teaching and preaching the gospel to adult men? (and when is a man
                        >     an adult?  Isn't age kind of a cultural thing and are there not
                        >     cultural modifiers when it comes to the Scriptures dealing with
                        >     male and female issues?).
                        >     
                        >     4.  Is not much of our Sunday School church curriculum and even
                        >     Hymns that have theology and doctrine in them written by some women?
                        >     
                        >     5.  Lastly, what is the authority that a teacher has anyway?
                        >     Where does it come from and how is it recognized.  It seems like
                        >     many churches say for example that when someone stands behind the
                        >     pulpit, that is an authoratative preaching and teaching role.  So
                        >     when a man does it "He's preaching the Word!" and when a woman
                        >     does it "She's sharing her heart about the Word of God."
                        >     
                        >     Are not current church practices very inconsistent when it comes
                        >     to what women can and can not do?
                        >     
                        >     Grace and peace  -  Chris C.
                        >     
                        >     
                        >     
                        >     
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                        >        
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                        >       
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                      • supergohanlee
                        1 Corinthians 11:4-5 ( Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 5, 2004
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                          1 Corinthians 11:4-5 ("Every man who prays or prophesies with his
                          head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or
                          prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as
                          though her head were shaved"), in context of giving propriety in
                          Worship, seems to suggest that women were clearly prophesying in the
                          NT church. Doesn't this suggest that women were allowed to teach in
                          the church, and also allow the women to write NT books?

                          But whether women are allowed to write the Scripture or not, could
                          there be any other conflict with the orthodox Christian doctrine if
                          the author of the Gospel of John were really a woman?


                          Han J. Lee



                          --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Koenig"
                          <jkoenig@s...> wrote:
                          > I think the context in 1 tim 2 is more about conduct in public
                          assembly,
                          > rather than within the family. verse 8 seems to be speaking about
                          > public prayer by men. then v. 9 to the end of the chapter is about
                          > women (what they should wear, how they should act, etc.). Then
                          chapter
                          > 3 is about the qualifications for overseers and deacons in the
                          church.
                          > In 3:15 Paul explains that these instructions were given "that you
                          may
                          > know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God.
                          Chapter
                          > 1 is about refuting doctrinal error through public teaching.
                          >
                          > Also, Paul gives a similar teaching concerning the role of women in
                          1
                          > cor. 14:34, basing it on "the Law" (possibly referring to Gen. 2 as
                          in 1
                          > Tim 2). There, the context clear is that of the public assembly and
                          > proper conduct in that place.
                          >
                          > If women can't teach in the church (at least where that would
                          amount to
                          > exercising authority over men, as where the woman is the senior
                          teaching
                          > pastor), then women can't be apostles and write NT books.
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                        • Jeff Koenig
                          I think 1 cor 11:4-5 must be interpreted in harmony with 1 cor. 14:34-35 and with 1 tim. 2:9-15. If we assume that women were allowed to prophsy in public
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 6, 2004
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                            Message
                            I think 1 cor 11:4-5 must be interpreted in harmony with 1 cor. 14:34-35 and with 1 tim. 2:9-15.
                             
                            If we assume that women were allowed to "prophsy" in public meetings, and that Paul did not intend to forbid that practice (just to regulate it), then whatever prophesying means, it cannot mean what Paul forbids women to do in 1 cor. 14:35-34 ("speak") or teach/exercise authority over mean (as in 1 Tim2).
                             
                            It is significant that in both bases Paul appeals to the Law.  In 1 cor. 14, his restriction is "just as the Law also says" -- the women are to keep silent and not speak.  In 1 Tim. 2, he appeals to the order of creation in Gen. 2, and to the order of the fall (Eve deceived first).
                             
                            I don't think the prophesying in 1 cor 12-14 was the same as handing down inerrant scripture (writing a NT book).  Also, the prophet was not really in authority, since the church was required to sit in judgment: "And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment."  Presumably, if a male or female prophet got up and said something that was wrong (e.g., inconsistent with apostolic teaching), the elders (men) would determine that fact and inform the church.  That is not the same as the female prophet being an elder, or passing judgment on the teaching of the elders. 
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: supergohanlee [mailto:supergohanlee@...]
                            Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:32 PM
                            To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved


                            1 Corinthians 11:4-5 ("Every man who prays or prophesies with his
                            head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or
                            prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as
                            though her head were shaved"), in context of giving propriety in
                            Worship, seems to suggest that women were clearly prophesying in the
                            NT church.  Doesn't this suggest that women were allowed to teach in
                            the church, and also allow the women to write NT books?

                            But whether women are allowed to write the Scripture or not, could
                            there be any other conflict with the orthodox Christian doctrine if
                            the author of the Gospel of John were really a woman?


                            Han J. Lee


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