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Re: [biblicalapologetics] Asking forgivness of sins

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  • Jeff Koenig
    If you believe God zapped you with irresistible grace to cause you to believe and be regenerated, then it makes sense to think he will keep zapping you with
    Message 1 of 43 , Sep 8, 2004
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      If you believe God zapped you with irresistible grace to cause you to believe and be regenerated, then it makes sense to think he will keep zapping you with grace to cause you to persevere to the end.
       
      But if you believe that you made a choice to trust in Christ, it makes sense to think that you still have the power to depart from Christ.
       
      If the apostles wanted us to "keep short accounts" or "examine ourselves" they could have just said so, rather than making warning noises about the danger of falling away when that is really impossible.  Paul told the corinthians to examine themselves before taking the Lord's Supper.  Why couldn't the author of Hebrews do the same if that is what he really meant to say.  Why rake the readers over the coals over the danger of departing from Christ and falling back into Judaism, when departing from Christ is really impossible.
       
      The usual way to get around these verses is to say that they are not talking about true believers.
       
      the once-saved perjorative, or perseverance of the saints, is mostly just semantics.  The meaning on the point in question is the same -- that a true Christian cannot depart from Christ.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Don Malin
      Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:08 AM
      Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] Asking forgivness of sins

      Don't like the phrase Once saved always saved, though true. This  gets people thinking that one can be saved a purposely sin with impunity. I prefer the "perserverance of the saints." Those who are saints, true believers, will persevere. The various passages that seem to indicate one can fall away are means to examine ourselves.. To keep short accounts with God.
       
      If we are truly His  then we will not finally fall away but will be saved.  Salvation is a gift, i.e., justification by faith.   A gift is not kept or earned. Christ fully and finally not only paid for sin. My sin and all true believers sin, but His righteousness is reckoned to me. I am reckoned righteous before God because of Jesus. We cannot improve upon His righteousness at all...
       
      To be continued....
       
      Blessings,
       
      Don    
       
       
       


      Jeff Koenig <jkoenig@...> wrote:
      Romans 8:28 is the favorite verse of those who believe in eternal security (once saved always saved), but the important texts are in Hebrews and Peters letters.  No doubt nothing extrinsic can separate us from Christ; the question is whether we are free to depart from the faith. And if not, then why are there so many warnings in the NT about not doing so?
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Don Malin
      Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:06 AM
      Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] Asking forgivness of sins

      Good question. I heard an answer that stresses our sonship. We are His children. Like a child, we can disobey our parents.  How often have you NOT done something your dad wanted done and when he asked you if you did it, you told him you did?  You lied, and most likely he knew it. But you feel bad because you lied and you lied to the dad who does all good things for you. Now how do you feel around him? You feel guilty and that starts to effect your view of your dad.  But finally you confess to him and ask him to forgive you. Your relationship with him will not allow you to ignore yor disobedience. You are sorry that you lied to him and you want to make things right by doing what ever he wanted you to do.  Your father forgives you and continues to love you. As a matter of fact he does not disown you or throw you out. He is your father..you are his son. 
       
       
       
      God the Father is our Father. He doesn't throw us out. He would discipline us (Hebrews 12:4-11) but not disown us. If we findourselves in Hell in the end...we were never saved!!!!!! 
       
      We are either children of God or we are not. We don't lose our salvation, if we have it. It is ETERNAL life. Not until the next sin.  It is a free gift. Not something that is taken away from us. If we keep it by our obedience then no one is saved.....period.  
       
      Romans 8:28-39 says it best. Nothing can take us from the love of God...     
       
      Most likely to be continued...
       
      Blessings,
       
      Don
       
       


      Jeremiah Gooch <jeremiahg@...> wrote:
      Hello, list,

      Asking forgiveness of sins after salvation - Why do we do this if our sins,
      past, present and future are forgiven?  I have an idea or two why on the tip
      of my tongue.  I can "feel" why.  But I can't _explain_ why, indepth and
      bibically at this moment.  Any comments from a reformed perspective?
      I have had this question in mind in the past but it was prompted again
      recently after preusing Dan Corner's site
      (http://www.evangelicaloutreach.com/) and viewing an article of his in which
      he argues that our *past* sins have been forgiven upon salvation but, as I
      gather he argues, we must ask forgiveness for any subsequent sins commited.
      This argument (if I read it correctly) would seem to mean that our state of
      salvation is only as good as our last confession (?).

      God bless,
      Jeremiah

      --
      jeremiahg@...
      futureman7999@...
      http://www.avmetro.freeservers.com/
      http://www.theologyweb.com/

      "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I
      will by no means cast out." John 6:37

      "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.  And I give
      them eternal life, and they shall never perish;  neither shall anyone snatch
      them out of My hand." John 10:27-28

      "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes;  there shall be no more
      death, nor sorrow , nor crying.  There shall be no more pain, for the former
      thing have passed away."  Rev 21:4


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    • Jeff Koenig
      that would be a common figure of speech, the container for the contents, similar to using the term White House to refer to the people inside who run the
      Message 43 of 43 , Oct 9, 2004
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        that would be a common figure of speech, the container for the contents, similar to using the term "White House" to refer to the people inside who run the government.
         
        but, in this context it may refer also to the end of death altogether.
         
        in Rev. 20.13 John says that "death and hades gave up the dead which were in them."  So we know that John knows how to refer distinctly to the people who dwell there, as opposed to the place itself.
         
        then, in 20.13 is says that they were "judged."  but it does not say anyone is sent to the lake of fire.
         
        then in 20.14, he says that "death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire."
         
        then in 20:15, he say, "if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." 
         
        so, 20.14 "could" be a figure of speech meaning that the people in "death and Hades" were thrown into the lake of fire.  But in the very next verse (15) John expressly says that these same people are "thrown" into the lake of fire.
         
        overall, I tend to think that death and Hades being cast in, along with the people, may refer to the end of death in general, not solely to the inhabitants being cast into the lake of fire.  for one thing, there is no more death from this point forward, so there would be no one to go into "hades" or 'death."  (See rev. 21.4, "there shall no longer be any death.")
        -----Original Message-----
        From: supergohanlee [mailto:supergohanlee@...]
        Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:13 AM
        To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Asking forgivness of sins


        I think the passage (Rev 20:14) means that the people who are already
        in Hades as well as the unsaved people at the time of judgment will
        be cast into the lake of fire.  So the "death and Hades" referes to
        the people, rather than the place being eliminated.




        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Koenig"
        <jkoenig@s...> wrote:
        > Asking forgivness of sinsthe word translated "hell" in KJV is
        hades, not gehenna.
        >
        > KJV Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of
        fire. This is the second death.
        >
        >
        > NAS Revelation 20:14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake
        of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
        >
        >
        > Just means that the realm of the dead (hades) is cast into the lake
        of fire.  But it is not clear exactly what that means, or what it
        means for "death" to be cast into the lake of fire.  Maybe the idea
        is that after there is no more death, no more hades.  It makes more
        sense to people or angels/demons to be cast into the lake of fire
        than things like "death" or places like "hades."  When people are
        cast in, I take that literally.  When hades/death is cast in, I think
        the meaning might be figurative.
        >




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