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Questions about Jn 11:25-26

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  • Isa
    Hi to all: In Jn 11:25-26, Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives
    Message 1 of 2 , Feb 3, 2011
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      Hi to all:

      In Jn 11:25-26, Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" NIV

      My questions to Rob and all are:

      (1) At what point in the history of Chrstianity did or will this saying of Jesus become factually historical? Before or after the resurrection of Jesus? Or none of these? Whatever your position, please support it biblically, historically, or with reason.

      (2) What is/are the referent(s) of ". . . will live, even though he dies" and "will never die" in the saying?

      Isa
      http://www.layadvocacyforchristianunity.org
    • R.hero
      Hi to all: In Jn 11:25-26, Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives
      Message 2 of 2 , Feb 19, 2011
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        Hi to all:

        In Jn 11:25-26, Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who
        believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes
        in me will never die. Do you believe this?" NIV

        My questions to Rob and all are:

        (1) At what point in the history of Chrstianity did or will this saying of Jesus
        become factually historical? Before or after the resurrection of Jesus? Or none
        of these? Whatever your position, please support it biblically, historically, or
        with reason.

        (2) What is/are the referent(s) of ". . . will live, even though he dies" and
        "will never die" in the saying?

        Isa
        http://www.layadvocacyforchristianunity.org



        Hello Isa,

        In order to answer your questions we first need to understand death. There are three kinds of death in scripture-- physical, spiritual, and eternal death.

        In each kind of death as applied to man in scripture means separation or a cutting off from realizing Gods purpose for which he was created. One can logically substitute the word separation for death in every scripture where it is used. It will clarify many passages to do so, as we shall see below.


        1. Physical death: the separation of the inner man from the outer man—the soul and spirit from the body. James writes,

        26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead (James 2:26 NIV).


        The body only dies at the time of physical death. The body returns to dust (Gen3:19) and the soul and spirit of the righteous go to heaven to await the resurrection of the body. The soul and spirit are immortal and therefore cannot go back to dust. Paul writes,

        2Cor 5

        8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

        Phil 1

        21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

        Heb 12

        23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, (NIV)

        The soul and spirit of the wicked go to hell to await the resurrection of the body.

        Luke 16

        19 Jesus said, "There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed in purple and fine linen and who lived each day in luxury. 20 At his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores. 21 As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man's table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.
        22 "Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham.[a] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and his soul went to the place of the dead.[b] There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side.
        24 "The rich man shouted, `Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.'
        25 "But Abraham said to him, `Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.'
        27 "Then the rich man said, `Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father's home. 28 For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don't end up in this place of torment.'
        29 "But Abraham said, `Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.'
        30 "The rich man replied, `No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.'
        31 "But Abraham said, `If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.'"


        Isaiah 14

        9 "In the place of the dead[a] there is excitement
        over your arrival.
        The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead
        stand up to see you.
        Revelation 20
        11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave[a] gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. (NLT)


        2. Spiritual death: is the separation of man from God because of sin.

        Eph 2

        1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
        5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!)

        Isaiah 59

        2 It's your sins that have cut you off from God.
        Because of your sins, he has turned away
        and will not listen anymore.

        Mt 8

        22 But Jesus told him, "Follow me now. Let the spiritually dead bury their own dead. (NLT)



        3. Eternal death: is the eternal separation from God because man chooses to remain separated from God in sin. Eternal death is also known as the second death.

        Mt.10

        28 "Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (NLT)

        Mt 25

        41 "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, `Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.
        46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life." (NLT)


        Revelation 2

        11 "Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. Whoever is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.(NLT)


        Revelation 14

        9 Then a third angel followed them, shouting, "Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand 10 must drink the wine of God's anger. It has been poured full strength into God's cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name." (NLT)


        Revelation 20

        11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave[a] gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.(NLT)


        Revelation 21

        8 "But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (NLT)


        Revelation 22

        15 Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie. (NLT)


        Isaiah 66

        22 " For as the new heavens and the new earth
        Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD,

        " So shall your descendants and your name remain.
        23 And it shall come to pass
        That from one New Moon to another,
        And from one Sabbath to another,
        All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
        24 " And they shall go forth and look
        Upon the corpses of the men
        Who have transgressed against Me.
        For their worm does not die,
        And their fire is not quenched.
        They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (NKJV)


        Note: It is clear in Isaiah 66:24 that the corpses and the worm are in a fire that will never be quenched The corpses are the bodies of men in eternal hell which will never be destroyed—bodies that will be resurrected to immortality so they may be punished for deeds done in the body before death . Theses eternal bodies in hell are considered dead corpses because of being without the life of God given to the resurrected believers in Christ. Those in hell will be abhorrence to all the living flesh on the new earth. The purpose of this opening in hell will be to cause all coming generations to abhor sin and its consequences. When natural men can actually see into eternal hell it will be a great warning to them to walk in the ways of God....Horrifying as the thought may be, the view may be Gods best method of keeping eternal generations in line with his laws and commandments as the progress in the new earth- in the eternal future.


        John 11 tells the story of how Jesus resurrected Lazarus after he physically died. Therefore, when

        snip

        25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (NIV)
        He clearly meant (and has powers to) resurrect believer's bodily (v25) and grant eternal life (26)


        So, when does this bodily resurrection happen?


        1Cor 15

        20 But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died.
        21 So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man. 22 Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life. 23 But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.


        Note: The Christ was raised bodily (John 20:24-28). He was the first to be resurrected bodily and immortality. Therefore, Lazarus was resurrected bodily but his body was not made immortal in Jn 11—Jesus was the first to have this honour(1Cor 15:20). The reason for resurrecting Lazarus was to define resurrection as bodily) The resurrection of the body and immortality (and the answer to your first question Isa) will be at the coming again of the Christ Jesus.(1Cor.15:23)

        1Cor 15

        51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.


        1Cor15

        54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[a] this Scripture will be fulfilled:
        "Death is swallowed up in victory.[b]
        55 O death, where is your victory?
        O death, where is your sting?[c]"
        56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.
        58 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless.


        1Thess 4

        13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died[a] so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
        15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words. (NLT)


        Note: The body only dies at the time of physical death. The body returns to dust (Gen3:19) and the soul and spirit of the righteous go to heaven to await the resurrection of the body. The soul and spirit are immortal and therefore cannot go back to dust. Original body resurrection will take place when Jesus returns (1 Thess 4:13-18)


        r.hero
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