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Re: nde

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  • William
    Isa, The passage does not dictate what is meant by a day or a night, thus your dictating that it must be 12 hour periods is adding to scripture. Again, the
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 10, 2011
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      Isa,

      The passage does not dictate what is meant by a day or a night, thus your dictating that it must be 12 hour periods is adding to scripture. Again, the thought of that time was that any part of a day or a night counted as an entire day or night.

      A second point is that this might well have been a true saying of Jesus that was preserved because it is what he said. However, this does not mean that he was accurate. You might note that he also is reported to have predicted that not a stone of the temple would be left standing on another. If this was an accurate prediction, then how do we still have the "wailing wall" standing in Jerusalem.

      I would again remind you that even though you have not studied sufficiently or perhaps not realized what you have read, there is ample evidence that the experience you had (an NDE) was not indicative of the promised future life of the believers, but rather an experience of the realm of the blessed which has been described since ancient times, in the Old Testament, ancient Greek mythology and philosophy (Plato and Socrates knew of it), Ugaritc writings and ancient Egyptian records all in the western world, as well as recorded in ancient Chinese records and the Upanishads. I would likewise suggest ancient Native Americans, but those records are questionable as the interpretations may be questioned as well as dating as they were recorded on perishable materials and regularly updated.

      Bill

      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
      >
      > Bill:
      >
      > This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
      >
      > I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least 'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
      > Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
      >
      > Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath." NIV.
      >
      > Will you comment on this.
      >
      > Isa
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Thanks, Bill:
      > >
      > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
      > >
      > > Isa
      > >
      > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Isa,
      > > >
      > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries did.
      > > >
      > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE experiences.
      > > >
      > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society.
      > > >
      > > > Bill
      > > >
      > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
      > > > >
      > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from scripture"
      > > > >
      > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
      > > > >
      > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
      > > > >
      > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
      > > > >
      > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
      > > > >
      > > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • bootsdpm
      many Christian NDE believers say that God s love is unconditional. There s no eternal torment nor eternal soul sleep . Everyone regardless of their earthly
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 10, 2011
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        many Christian NDE believers say that God's love is unconditional. There's no eternal torment nor eternal "soul" sleep". Everyone regardless of their earthly works including Adolf Hitler, Idi Amin, Charles Manson, etc., will eventually make it to eternal bliss.



        Do you believe it?




        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks, Bill:
        >
        > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
        >
        > Isa
        >
        > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Isa,
        > >
        > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a se
        542
        cond day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries did.
        > >
        > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE experiences.
        > >
        > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society.
        > >
        > > Bill
        > >
        > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
        > > >
        > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from scripture"
        > > >
        > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be dead/buried
        5d6
        in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
        > > >
        > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
        > > >
        > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
        > > >
        > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
        > > >
        > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your
        866
        hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
        > > >
        > > > Isa
        > >
        >
      • bootsdpm
        well I ve heard that marriage is the death of romance. lol
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 10, 2011
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          well I've heard that marriage is the death of romance. lol



          --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Sloan <jimmysloan@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > A few moments after I said, "I do" I looked at my new wife and was like, "Where am I and what did I just do?" Does that count?
          > Best regards,Jimmy
          >
          >
          >
          > To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
          > From: bootsdpm@...
          > Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 06:16:56 +0000
          > Subject: [biblicalapologetics] nde
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          > does anyone here believes in near death experience?
          >
        • William
          Tom, I had to read back to confirm, but it seems that I did note that the extraordinary account of a post clinical death NDE report was posted in Lancet , the
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 11, 2011
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            Tom,

            I had to read back to confirm, but it seems that I did note that the extraordinary account of a post clinical death NDE report was posted in "Lancet", the Journal of the British Medical Society. I would post the full article here, but that might run afoul of copyright laws. However, after I dig through notes that I was not planning to use just yet, I will be able to provide Volume and Issue information, probably pages also. I do hope that you consider the British Medical Society to be properly scrupulous in determinng which articles to publish, unlike some tabloid magazines.

            Please be careful of what you comment on, as I really do not appreciate someone implying that I did not comment on a reference when it is present in my post.

            As for ancient Jewish death burial practices, you might wish to remember that many cultures, including 19th century American, recognized that people were sometimes buried alive. Sometimes provisions were even made for a string to be placed in the deceased hands, which was attached to a bell above ground so that if the supposed deceased person awoke in the grave they could summon help.

            Bill

            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, tcmadd2@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > Folks,
            >
            > Sometimes these discussions begin to enter the realm of the absurd. These pronouncements that in Jesus' time the Jews did not believe someone was really dead until they had been apparently dead for three, (or four), days that had to be days of so many hours seem to me to enter into that realm.
            >
            > If this were really the case it would mean that the Jews regularly buried people who they did not know whether they were dead or not! It is much more likely that they just said something like, "He has stopped breathing and we cannot detect any heartbeat, and he is getting cold and stiff...he's dead."
            >
            > When someone makes the amazing claim that someone who was "clinically dead" came back and reported a NDE, it would do wonders for the credibility of such a claim if the person using this info to bolster their position would reference the journal or article where this was reported. Otherwise, it just looks like the sort of hearsay that travels around Christian circles. You know, claims like the Russians drilled a hole so deep that the could hear screams coming up from hell. Or, that NASA computer experts have discovered Joshua's lost day.
            >
            > Tom M.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Isa <isalcordo@...>
            > To: biblicalapologetics <biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 2:53 pm
            > Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: nde
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Bill:
            >
            > This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
            >
            > I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least 'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
            > Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
            >
            > Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath." NIV.
            >
            > Will you comment on this.
            >
            > Isa
            >
            > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Thanks, Bill:
            > >
            > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
            > >
            > > Isa
            > >
            > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Isa,
            > > >
            > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries did.
            > > >
            > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE experiences.
            > > >
            > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society.
            > > >
            > > > Bill
            > > >
            > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
            > > > >
            > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from scripture"
            > > > >
            > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
            > > > >
            > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
            > > > >
            > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
            > > > >
            > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
            > > > >
            > > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
            > > > >
            > > > > Isa
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Isa
            Bill: The wailing wall that is left standing to this day is/was NOT any part or portion of the TEMPLE WALL. It is part of the wall SURROUNDING THE TEMPLE. So
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 11, 2011
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              Bill:

              The wailing wall that is left standing to this day is/was NOT any part or portion of the TEMPLE WALL. It is part of the wall SURROUNDING THE TEMPLE. So Jesus was accurate in his prediction of ". . . not a stone left standing." Thus, you are wrong to say that Jesus may not be accurate . . . "

              See Wikipedia: "The Western Wall (Hebrew: הכותל המערבי‎, translit.: HaKotel HaMa'aravi), Wailing Wall or Kotel (lit. Wall; Ashkenazic pronunciation: Kosel); (Arabic: حائط البراق‎, translit.: "Ḥā'iṭ Al-Burāq", translat.: "The Buraq Wall") is located in the Old City of Jerusalem at the foot of the western side of the Temple Mount. It is a remnant of the ancient wall that surrounded the Jewish Temple's courtyard and is one of the most sacred sites in Judaism outside of the Temple Mount itself. Just over half the wall, including its 17 courses located below street level, dates from the end of the Second Temple period, being constructed around 19 BCE by Herod the Great. The remaining layers were added from the 7th century onwards. The Western Wall refers not only to the exposed section facing a large plaza in the Jewish Quarter, but also to the sections concealed behind structures running along the whole length of the Temple Mount, such as the Little Western Wall - a 25 ft (8 m) section in the Muslim Quarter.

              It has been a site for Jewish prayer and pilgrimage for centuries, the earliest source mentioning Jewish attachment to the site dating from the 4th century. From the mid-19th century onwards, attempts to purchase rights to the wall and its immediate area were made by various Jews, but none were successful. With the rise of the Zionist movement in the early 20th-century, the wall became a source of friction between the Jewish community and the Muslim religious leadership, who were worried that the wall was being used to further Jewish nationalistic claims to the Temple Mount and Jerusalem. Outbreaks of violence at the foot of the wall became commonplace and an international commission was convened in 1930 to determine the rights and claims of Muslims and Jews in connection with the wall. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War the wall came under Jordanian control and Jews were barred from the site for 19 years until Israel captured the Old City in 1967."

              Also, I said in my previous posts that I believe that NDE's before AD 70 as it is today are FORETASTE of the RESURRECTION (as well as ABORTED PHYSICAL DEATH) which I believe to be the going on today in accordance with Jn 11:25-26:

              Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" NIV

              Isa


              --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@...> wrote:
              >
              > Isa,
              >
              > The passage does not dictate what is meant by a day or a night, thus your dictating that it must be 12 hour periods is adding to scripture. Again, the thought of that time was that any part of a day or a night counted as an entire day or night.
              >
              > A second point is that this might well have been a true saying of Jesus that was preserved because it is what he said. However, this does not mean that he was accurate. You might note that he also is reported to have predicted that not a stone of the temple would be left standing on another. If this was an accurate prediction, then how do we still have the "wailing wall" standing in Jerusalem.
              >
              > I would again remind you that even though you have not studied sufficiently or perhaps not realized what you have read, there is ample evidence that the experience you had (an NDE) was not indicative of the promised future life of the believers, but rather an experience of the realm of the blessed which has been described since ancient times, in the Old Testament, ancient Greek mythology and philosophy (Plato and Socrates knew of it), Ugaritc writings and ancient Egyptian records all in the western world, as well as recorded in ancient Chinese records and the Upanishads. I would likewise suggest ancient Native Americans, but those records are questionable as the interpretations may be questioned as well as dating as they were recorded on perishable materials and regularly updated.
              >
              > Bill
              >
              > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Bill:
              > >
              > > This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
              > >
              > > I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least 'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
              > > Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
              > >
              > > Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath." NIV.
              > >
              > > Will you comment on this.
              > >
              > > Isa
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Thanks, Bill:
              > > >
              > > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
              > > >
              > > > Isa
              > > >
              > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Isa,
              > > > >
              > > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries did.
              > > > >
              > > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE experiences.
              > > > >
              > > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society.
              > > > >
              > > > > Bill
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from scripture"
              > > > > >
              > > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
              > > > > >
              > > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Isa
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • William
              Boots, I do believe that God s love is unconditional, but I also do not think that God will ultimately override our free will. However, I do also recognize
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 12, 2011
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                Boots,

                I do believe that God's love is unconditional, but I also do not think that God will ultimately override our free will. However, I do also recognize "hell" as a temporary place an dhave argue that its purpose is not punishment so much as an extreme teaching tool to discourage people from continuing to follow the wrong path. But it God's patience does have an end, and He will do away with both our current heaven and hell with a final judgment. Those who continue to insist on following the wrong path at that final judgment will be destroyed I think.

                Bill

                --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "bootsdpm" <bootsdpm@...> wrote:
                >
                > many Christian NDE believers say that God's love is unconditional. There's no eternal torment nor eternal "soul" sleep". Everyone regardless of their earthly works including Adolf Hitler, Idi Amin, Charles Manson, etc., will eventually make it to eternal bliss.
                >
                >
                >
                > Do you believe it?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Thanks, Bill:
                > >
                > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
                > >
                > > Isa
                > >
                > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Isa,
                > > >
                > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a se
                > 542
                > cond day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries did.
                > > >
                > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE experiences.
                > > >
                > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society.
                > > >
                > > > Bill
                > > >
                > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
                > > > >
                > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from scripture"
                > > > >
                > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be dead/buried
                > 5d6
                > in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
                > > > >
                > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
                > > > >
                > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
                > > > >
                > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
                > > > >
                > > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your
                > 866
                > hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
                > > > >
                > > > > Isa
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • tcmadd2@aol.com
                Bill, Isa is correct. Archaeologists are still not sure exactly where the temple stood. Herod the great constructed a large platform as a site for his
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 12, 2011
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                  Bill,
                   
                  Isa is correct.  Archaeologists are still not sure exactly where the temple stood.  Herod the great constructed a large platform as a site for his temple, and the wailing wall is a support wall for one side of said platform. The temple itself is completely gone. One street that runs beside the temple platform has many broken paving stones caused by the Romans dumping the blocks that made up the temple over the side of the platform.
                   
                  Tom



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Isa <isalcordo@...>
                  To: biblicalapologetics <biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:23 pm
                  Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: nde

                   
                  Bill:

                  The wailing wall that is left standing to this day is/was NOT any part or portion of the TEMPLE WALL. It is part of the wall SURROUNDING THE TEMPLE. So Jesus was accurate in his prediction of ". . . not a stone left standing." Thus, you are wrong to say that Jesus may not be accurate . . . "

                  See Wikipedia: "The Western Wall (Hebrew: &#1492;&#1499;&#1493;&#1514;&#1500; &#1492;&#1502;&#1506;&#1512;&#1489;&#1497;&#8206;, translit.: HaKotel HaMa'aravi), Wailing Wall or Kotel (lit. Wall; Ashkenazic pronunciation: Kosel); (Arabic: &#1581;&#1575;&#1574;&#1591; &#1575;&#1604;&#1576;&#1585;&#1575;&#1602;&#8206;, translit.: "&#7716;&#257;'i&#7789; Al-Bur&#257;q", translat.: "The Buraq Wall") is located in the Old City of Jerusalem at the foot of the western side of the Temple Mount. It is a remnant of the ancient wall that surrounded the Jewish Temple's courtyard and is one of the most sacred sites in Judaism outside of the Temple Mount itself. Just over half the wall, including its 17 courses located below street level, dates from the end of the Second Temple period, being constructed around 19 BCE by Herod the Great. The remaining layers w ere added from the 7th century onwards. The Western Wall refers not only to the exposed section facing a large plaza in the Jewish Quarter, but also to the sections concealed behind structures running along the whole length of the Temple Mount, such as the Little Western Wall - a 25 ft (8 m) section in the Muslim Quarter.

                  It has been a site for Jewish prayer and pilgrimage for centuries, the earliest source mentioning Jewish attachment to the site dating from the 4th century. From the mid-19th century onwards, attempts to purchase rights to the wall and its immediate area were made by various Jews, but none were successful. With the rise of the Zionist movement in the early 20th-century, the wall became a source of friction between the Jewish community and the Muslim religious leadership, who were worried that the wall was being used to further Jewish nationalistic claims to the Temple Mount and Jerusalem. Outbreaks of violence at the foot of the wall became commonplace and an international commission was convened in 1930 to determine the rights and claims of Muslims and Jews in connection with the wall. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War the wall came under Jordanian control and Jews were barred from the site for 19 years until Israel captured the Old City in 1967."

                  Also, I said in my previous posts that I believe that NDE's before AD 70 as it is today are FORETASTE of the RESURRECTION (as well as ABORTED PHYSICAL DEATH) which I believe to be the going on today in accordance with Jn 11:25-26:

                  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" NIV

                  Isa

                  --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Isa,
                  >
                  > The passage does not dictate what is meant by a day or a night, thus your dictating that it must be 12 hour periods is adding to scripture. Again, the thought of that time was that any part of a day or a night counted as an entire day or night.
                  >
                  > A second point is that this might well have been a true saying of Jesus that was preserved because it is what he said. However, this does not mean that he was accurate. You might note that he also is reported to have predicted that not a stone of the temple would be left standing on another. If this was an accurate prediction, then how do we still have the "wailing wall" standing in Jerusalem.
                  >
                  > I would again remind you that even though you have not studied sufficiently or perhaps not realized what you have read, there is ample evidence that the experience you had (an NDE) was not indicative of the promised future life of the believers, but rather an experience of the realm of the blessed which has been described since ancient times, in the Old Testament, ancient Greek mythology and philosophy (Plato and Socrates knew of it), Ugaritc writings and ancient Egyptian records all in the western world, as well as recorded in ancient Chinese records and the Upanishads. I would likewise suggest ancient Native Americans, but those records are questionable as the interpretations may be questioned as well as dating as they were recorded on perishable materials and regularly updated.
                  >
                  > Bill
                  >
                  > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Bill:
                  > >
                  > > This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
                  > >
                  > > I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least 'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
                  > > Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
                  > >
                  > > Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath." NIV.
                  > >
                  > > Will you comment on this.
                  > >
                  > > Isa
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks, Bill:
                  > > >
                  > > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
                  > > >
                  > > > Isa
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Isa,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries did.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE experiences.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Bill
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from scripture"
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Isa
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >

                • William
                  Tom and Isa, That it was not a literal wall of the Temple has been well known for quite some time. However, it also becomes a question of just how did Jesus
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 13, 2011
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                    Tom and Isa,

                    That it was not a literal wall of the Temple has been well known for quite some time. However, it also becomes a question of just how did Jesus mean that no stone would be left standing on another? Did He mean to include this wall or not. At least some scholars feel that the fact that the wall remains standing is a sign that this was a truly preserved saying of Jesus as it could be interpreted as false.

                    --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, tcmadd2@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Bill,
                    >
                    > Isa is correct. Archaeologists are still not sure exactly where the temple stood. Herod the great constructed a large platform as a site for his temple, and the wailing wall is a support wall for one side of said platform. The temple itself is completely gone. One street that runs beside the temple platform has many broken paving stones caused by the Romans dumping the blocks that made up the temple over the side of the platform.
                    >
                    > Tom
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Isa <isalcordo@...>
                    > To: biblicalapologetics <biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:23 pm
                    > Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: nde
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Bill:
                    >
                    > The wailing wall that is left standing to this day is/was NOT any part or portion of the TEMPLE WALL. It is part of the wall SURROUNDING THE TEMPLE. So Jesus was accurate in his prediction of ". . . not a stone left standing." Thus, you are wrong to say that Jesus may not be accurate . . . "
                    >
                    > See Wikipedia: "The Western Wall (Hebrew: הכותל המערבי‎, translit.: HaKotel HaMa'aravi), Wailing Wall or Kotel (lit. Wall; Ashkenazic pronunciation: Kosel); (Arabic: حائط البراق‎, translit.: "Ḥā'iṭ Al-Burāq", translat.: "The Buraq Wall") is located in the Old City of Jerusalem at the foot of the western side of the Temple Mount. It is a remnant of the ancient wall that surrounded the Jewish Temple's courtyard and is one of the most sacred sites in Judaism outside of the Temple Mount itself. Just over half the wall, including its 17 courses located below street level, dates from the end of the Second Temple period, being constructed around 19 BCE by Herod the Great. The remaining layers w ere added from the 7th century onwards. The Western Wall refers not only to the exposed section facing a large plaza in the Jewish Quarter, but also to the sections concealed behind structures running along the whole length of the Temple Mount, such as the Little Western Wall - a 25 ft (8 m) section in the Muslim Quarter.
                    >
                    > It has been a site for Jewish prayer and pilgrimage for centuries, the earliest source mentioning Jewish attachment to the site dating from the 4th century. From the mid-19th century onwards, attempts to purchase rights to the wall and its immediate area were made by various Jews, but none were successful. With the rise of the Zionist movement in the early 20th-century, the wall became a source of friction between the Jewish community and the Muslim religious leadership, who were worried that the wall was being used to further Jewish nationalistic claims to the Temple Mount and Jerusalem. Outbreaks of violence at the foot of the wall became commonplace and an international commission was convened in 1930 to determine the rights and claims of Muslims and Jews in connection with the wall. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War the wall came under Jordanian control and Jews were barred from the site for 19 years until Israel captured the Old City in 1967."
                    >
                    > Also, I said in my previous posts that I believe that NDE's before AD 70 as it is today are FORETASTE of the RESURRECTION (as well as ABORTED PHYSICAL DEATH) which I believe to be the going on today in accordance with Jn 11:25-26:
                    >
                    > Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" NIV
                    >
                    > Isa
                    >
                    > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Isa,
                    > >
                    > > The passage does not dictate what is meant by a day or a night, thus your dictating that it must be 12 hour periods is adding to scripture. Again, the thought of that time was that any part of a day or a night counted as an entire day or night.
                    > >
                    > > A second point is that this might well have been a true saying of Jesus that was preserved because it is what he said. However, this does not mean that he was accurate. You might note that he also is reported to have predicted that not a stone of the temple would be left standing on another. If this was an accurate prediction, then how do we still have the "wailing wall" standing in Jerusalem.
                    > >
                    > > I would again remind you that even though you have not studied sufficiently or perhaps not realized what you have read, there is ample evidence that the experience you had (an NDE) was not indicative of the promised future life of the believers, but rather an experience of the realm of the blessed which has been described since ancient times, in the Old Testament, ancient Greek mythology and philosophy (Plato and Socrates knew of it), Ugaritc writings and ancient Egyptian records all in the western world, as well as recorded in ancient Chinese records and the Upanishads. I would likewise suggest ancient Native Americans, but those records are questionable as the interpretations may be questioned as well as dating as they were recorded on perishable materials and regularly updated.
                    > >
                    > > Bill
                    > >
                    > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Bill:
                    > > >
                    > > > This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
                    > > >
                    > > > I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least 'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
                    > > > Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
                    > > >
                    > > > Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath." NIV.
                    > > >
                    > > > Will you comment on this.
                    > > >
                    > > > Isa
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thanks, Bill:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Isa
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Isa,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries did.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE experiences.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Bill
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from scripture"
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Isa
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Isa
                    Bill: Here is Mk 13:1-2: As he (Jesus) was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 14, 2011
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                      Bill:

                      Here is Mk 13:1-2: As he (Jesus) was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!" "Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." NIV.

                      Note that the disciple said MAGNIFICENT BUILDINGS - clearly excluding the walls.

                      Now, here is a quote from Wikipedia: "Holy Temple (Hebrew: áÅÌéúÎäÇîÄÌ÷ÀãÈÌùÑ, Beit HaMikdash ; "House of the Holy"; Biblical: Beyth HaMiqdhash), refers to one of a series of structures located on the Temple Mount in the old city of Jerusalem. Historically, two temples of the Jews stood at this location and functioned as the centre of ancient Jewish worship. According to classical Jewish belief, the Temple acted as the figurative "footstool" of God's presence and a Third Temple will be built there in the future."

                      Note that "the Temple" was just one of "a series of structures located on the Temple Mount" and NOT one stone from those series of buildings was left standing today - JUST AS JESUS SAID above.

                      The problem with most atheist so-called scholars is that they refused to accept Jesus' words but "read something into them," like including the walls for buildings, just to raise doubts to the divinity of Jesus.

                      Isa
                      -----


                      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Tom and Isa,
                      >
                      > That it was not a literal wall of the Temple has been well known for quite some time. However, it also becomes a question of just how did Jesus mean that no stone would be left standing on another? Did He mean to include this wall or not. At least some scholars feel that the fact that the wall remains standing is a sign that this was a truly preserved saying of Jesus as it could be interpreted as false.
                      >
                      > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, tcmadd2@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Bill,
                      > >
                      > > Isa is correct. Archaeologists are still not sure exactly where the temple stood. Herod the great constructed a large platform as a site for his temple, and the wailing wall is a support wall for one side of said platform. The temple itself is completely gone. One street that runs beside the temple platform has many broken paving stones caused by the Romans dumping the blocks that made up the temple over the side of the platform.
                      > >
                      > > Tom
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Isa <isalcordo@>
                      > > To: biblicalapologetics <biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:23 pm
                      > > Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: nde
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Bill:
                      > >
                      > > The wailing wall that is left standing to this day is/was NOT any part or portion of the TEMPLE WALL. It is part of the wall SURROUNDING THE TEMPLE. So Jesus was accurate in his prediction of ". . . not a stone left standing." Thus, you are wrong to say that Jesus may not be accurate . . . "
                      > >
                      > > See Wikipedia: "The Western Wall (Hebrew: הכותל המערבי‎, translit.: HaKotel HaMa'aravi), Wailing Wall or Kotel (lit. Wall; Ashkenazic pronunciation: Kosel); (Arabic: حائط البراق‎, translit.: "Ḥā'iṭ Al-Burāq", translat.: "The Buraq Wall") is located in the Old City of Jerusalem at the foot of the western side of the Temple Mount. It is a remnant of the ancient wall that surrounded the Jewish Temple's courtyard and is one of the most sacred sites in Judaism outside of the Temple Mount itself. Just over half the wall, including its 17 courses located below street level, dates from the end of the Second Temple period, being constructed around 19 BCE by Herod the Great. The remaining layers w ere added from the 7th century onwards. The Western Wall refers not only to the exposed section facing a large plaza in the Jewish Quarter, but also to the sections concealed behind structures running along the whole length of the Temple Mount, such as the Little Western Wall - a 25 ft (8 m) section in the Muslim Quarter.
                      > >
                      > > It has been a site for Jewish prayer and pilgrimage for centuries, the earliest source mentioning Jewish attachment to the site dating from the 4th century. From the mid-19th century onwards, attempts to purchase rights to the wall and its immediate area were made by various Jews, but none were successful. With the rise of the Zionist movement in the early 20th-century, the wall became a source of friction between the Jewish community and the Muslim religious leadership, who were worried that the wall was being used to further Jewish nationalistic claims to the Temple Mount and Jerusalem. Outbreaks of violence at the foot of the wall became commonplace and an international commission was convened in 1930 to determine the rights and claims of Muslims and Jews in connection with the wall. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War the wall came under Jordanian control and Jews were barred from the site for 19 years until Israel captured the Old City in 1967."
                      > >
                      > > Also, I said in my previous posts that I believe that NDE's before AD 70 as it is today are FORETASTE of the RESURRECTION (as well as ABORTED PHYSICAL DEATH) which I believe to be the going on today in accordance with Jn 11:25-26:
                      > >
                      > > Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" NIV
                      > >
                      > > Isa
                      > >
                      > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Isa,
                      > > >
                      > > > The passage does not dictate what is meant by a day or a night, thus your dictating that it must be 12 hour periods is adding to scripture. Again, the thought of that time was that any part of a day or a night counted as an entire day or night.
                      > > >
                      > > > A second point is that this might well have been a true saying of Jesus that was preserved because it is what he said. However, this does not mean that he was accurate. You might note that he also is reported to have predicted that not a stone of the temple would be left standing on another. If this was an accurate prediction, then how do we still have the "wailing wall" standing in Jerusalem.
                      > > >
                      > > > I would again remind you that even though you have not studied sufficiently or perhaps not realized what you have read, there is ample evidence that the experience you had (an NDE) was not indicative of the promised future life of the believers, but rather an experience of the realm of the blessed which has been described since ancient times, in the Old Testament, ancient Greek mythology and philosophy (Plato and Socrates knew of it), Ugaritc writings and ancient Egyptian records all in the western world, as well as recorded in ancient Chinese records and the Upanishads. I would likewise suggest ancient Native Americans, but those records are questionable as the interpretations may be questioned as well as dating as they were recorded on perishable materials and regularly updated.
                      > > >
                      > > > Bill
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Bill:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least 'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
                      > > > > Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath." NIV.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Will you comment on this.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Isa
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thanks, Bill:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Isa
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Isa,
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries did.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE experiences.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Bill
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from scripture"
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Isa
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • bootsdpm
                      BIll, according to nde accounts, there are purgatories where souls go to be purified before entering heaven. it s not a place of torture. ... 628 nuing to
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 14, 2011
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                        BIll,

                        according to nde accounts, there are "purgatories" where souls go to be purified before entering heaven. it's not a place of torture.








                        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Boots,
                        >
                        > I do believe that God's love is unconditional, but I also do not think that God will ultimately override our free will. However, I do also recognize "hell" as a temporary place an dhave argue that its purpose is not punishment so much as an extreme teaching tool to discourage people from conti
                        628
                        nuing to follow the wrong path. But it God's patience does have an end, and He will do away with both our current heaven and hell with a final judgment. Those who continue to insist on following the wrong path at that final judgment will be destroyed I think.
                        >
                        > Bill
                        >
                        > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "bootsdpm" <bootsdpm@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > many Christian NDE believers say that God's love is unconditional. There's no eternal torment nor eternal "soul" sleep". Everyone regardless of their earthly works including Adolf Hitler, Idi Amin, Charles Manson, etc., will eventually make it to eternal bliss.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Do you believe it?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks, Bill:
                        > > >
                        > > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
                        > > >
                        > > > Isa
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Isa,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus being bur
                        d3
                        ied before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a se
                        > > 542
                        > > cond day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tra
                        538
                        dition of His day. To argue that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries did.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE experiences.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Bill
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from scripture"
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one mu
                        5af
                        st be dead/buried
                        > > 5d6
                        > > in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > BUT then,
                        93f
                        Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your
                        > > 866
                        > > hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Isa
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • William
                        Isa, You have offered what is a plausible defense; However we are left with the problem of not being able to be certain just what Jesus meant. The scholars
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jan 15, 2011
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                          Isa,

                          You have offered what is a plausible defense; However we are left with the problem of not being able to be certain just what Jesus meant. The scholars who argue that the wall would have been included wish to take things one way and will bend interpretation of scripture to that end, usually liberal. On the other hand there are also scholars who will bend interpretation of scripture any way they have to to ensure that in their eyes scripture is unchallengable, usually conservative. This goes so far as to influence dating of books of scripture or the nature of the resurrection. Neither approach can be established as correct given our present state of knowledge, but I suspect both are right in places and wrong in others.

                          Now to return to the question of NDE's, the most common description of what is experienced, suggests that this experience has been known of and recorded since ancient times in multiple cultures, thus adding credibility to the accounts. The mechanics of the process remain debatable, but has largely to do with one's prevailing worldview.

                          --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Bill:
                          >
                          > Here is Mk 13:1-2: As he (Jesus) was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!" "Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." NIV.
                          >
                          > Note that the disciple said MAGNIFICENT BUILDINGS - clearly excluding the walls.
                          >
                          > Now, here is a quote from Wikipedia: "Holy Temple (Hebrew: áÅÌéúÎäÇîÄÌ÷ÀãÈÌùÑ, Beit HaMikdash ; "House of the Holy"; Biblical: Beyth HaMiqdhash), refers to one of a series of structures located on the Temple Mount in the old city of Jerusalem. Historically, two temples of the Jews stood at this location and functioned as the centre of ancient Jewish worship. According to classical Jewish belief, the Temple acted as the figurative "footstool" of God's presence and a Third Temple will be built there in the future."
                          >
                          > Note that "the Temple" was just one of "a series of structures located on the Temple Mount" and NOT one stone from those series of buildings was left standing today - JUST AS JESUS SAID above.
                          >
                          > The problem with most atheist so-called scholars is that they refused to accept Jesus' words but "read something into them," like including the walls for buildings, just to raise doubts to the divinity of Jesus.
                          >
                          > Isa
                          > -----
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