Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re:

Expand Messages
  • Isa
    Tesfaye: You wrote: I am sorry what I am asking you and what you respond for me is quite different, at least as it appears to me. My question was: why you
    Message 1 of 2 , May 15, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Tesfaye:

      You wrote:
      I am sorry what I am asking you and what you respond for me is quite different, at least as it appears to me. My question was: "why you need to express yourself as Catholic (if you really have such a huge difference with Catholic theology)"

      My response:
      I was baptized into the Catholic Church, so I am a Catholic until I am formally excommunicated which I do not believe will happen. Biblical Theology is so important to my Christian Faith that I cannot just leave it to church and academic theologians, after all the Holy Spirit, the source of all truths, was poured out on ALL PEOPLE (Acts 2:17), hence also on the lay people like me!

      You wrote:
      Well, I think the issue hinges on what do you mean by "MYSTERY" As Rob Bowman Currently doing there is an intellectual aspect of the issue and it has it own "MYSTERY" facet as well. I am comfortable with that (MYSTERY" for two big reasons: (1) there is a possibility to comprehend the God who creates the universe. (2) We only know God as much as the He reveals Himself to us. And the only source of knowledge what we have about the Trinity is the Bible. So the best of my knowledge there is no contradiction to be "intellectual" and accept the Biblical revelation as it is.

      My response:
      I do not know what Rob means by your quote. As for your point (1) above, I do not know what you mean by "comprehend God from MYSTERY." As for point (2) that is precisely what I meant - the One God revealing Himself through the Trinity - without any claim by the Trinity that IT is the One God.

      Now, both the Finite Yahweh or Jehovah of the OT and the Christ in the glorified body of Jesus in the NT (one like the Son of Man) claims to be "the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega," hence, as the One God. But being FINITE, either one (actually they are the same) CANNOT be the ONE INFINITE GOD!

      Also, I NEVER said that there is a contradiction being "intellectual" and accepting Biblical revelation.

      You wrote:
      I am not really sure I "precisely" understand your position. Still it is vague to me. So I need some more explanation. What do my mean by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the "separate roles of…the One God, in creation, in human history, and in the salvation of fallen humankind". Would you explain what does "separate role" mean?

      My response:
      The separate role of the Father is to "to express the WILL OF THE ONE INFINITE GOD to the Son," the separate role of the Son " is to carry out the WILL of the One Infinite God as expressed or made known by the Father to the Son" and the separate role of the Holy Spirit, proceeding from the One Infinite God through the Father and the Son, are "(1) to exercise the creative power of the One Infinite God to bring into reality t he word of the Son in creation, (2) to make known or reveal to humankind the WILL of the One Infinite God in creation, in human history, and the plan of salvation of fallen mankind through the indwelling of human beings called prophets including the man Jesus of Nazareth who is the incarnation of the Son, and (3) to mark for salvation (seal) those from humankind who believe on the overall plan of salvation through the Son as acted out in flesh by His incarnation, Jesus of Nazareth and as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

      You wrote:
      I think what do we mean by the word "one" plays a crucial role here. "Traditional Trinitarians claim that the TRINITY is the One God". Yes, that is by nature or essence. Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are fully God. I couldn't see any problem on that. I really do not know why do you say: "But that doctrine cannot be deduced from the Bible".

      My response:
      To say that "Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are fully God" is one thing. That is Biblically supported. To jump to a conclusion that "Father, Son and the Holy Spirit" is the One God of the Bible is another thing. The premise does not support the conclusion. The logic runs like this:

      "Since the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God (premise 1) and since God is one according to the OT and the NT (premise 2), then (conclusion) the Three Gods (Trinity) must be the One God."

      That is the logic of the Traditional Trinitarians. But then how can The three be also One? The answer: IT IS A MYSTERY! But that I cannot accept.

      It is more acceptable to my mind to say that "Behind the Father, the Son, and the Holy Sprit is the REALITY or EXISTENCE of the One Infinite God of which the Three (Trinity) Finite Persons, who have the fullness of the One God, are the Infinite God's manifestations of Himself to His intelligent finite creations, spirits and humankind.

      Just as according to our Creed that the Holy Spirit is "with the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified," in like manner should we declare about the One Infinite God: "with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit He is worshiped and glorified!"

      You wrote:
      Again I need some more explanation from your side. Would you explain how do you use the word "MANIFESTATION" here. Do you mean that one God manifest himself as the Father, as the Son, as the Holy Spirit? If I correctly understood you, now I see four separate things. One God and the rest of three are manifestations (God, Son, Holy Spirit). If this is your view of God (still I am not sure) what is the difference and the relationship between the ONE God and the Three persons? As the traditional Christian claim that I am associating my self, the Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit are fully God. And the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct in person (form eternity past to eternity future). Now you create the fourth one, "Behind the TRINITY is the ONE INFINITE GOD"

      My response:
      As for the word "manifestation,," please read the section "The Evolution of the Trinity" of my paper. Am I saying that there now "FOUR GODS?" DEFINITELY NO! GOD IS ONE WHO ALONE IS INFINITE! Is anyone of the three manifestations INFINITE? No! So, anyone of the three CANNOT be the One Infinite God. That is the CRUX of my theology!

      You wrote:
      I think I need some more explanation on the following words in relation to the trinity. "One" "manifestation" "person" "God". Unless you clearly define these words I do not clearly understood you. We only fight over words than ideas.

      My response:
      The words you wish clarification can be clarified by any dictionary or what the Bible says as plainly understood. I do not fight over words.

      Your wrote:
      What makes you Catholic (the member of "One True Church") then? Only to claim the Pope is "the true Successor of Peter" is both necessary and sufficient condition to label yourself as a Catholic?

      My response:
      I was baptized into the Catholic Church, therefore, until I am formally excommunicated I am a Roman Catholic. But in a very strict sense, the present Pope, Benedict XVI, based on the Old "DOGMA" before Vatican II cannot be considered a true Roman Catholic. By his support of Vatican II doctrines, he has excommunicated Himself from the RCC in the opinion of some priests and bishops. These Vatican I priests and bishops brand him an ANTIPOPE! So, it is a matter of personal opinion that I call myself a Catholic.

      May God bless us all.

      Isa
      In Service to the Lay People of God
      -------

      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Tesfaye Robele <tesfa_apologetics@...> wrote:
      >
      > Isa,
      >  
      > You wrote:
      > The Catholic and the Trinitarian Protestant churches's theology on "the One God and the Three Persons" is based on "MYSTERY" which I say is nothing but their acceptance of their state of "UNKNOWING." That I cannot live with intellectually.
      >  
      > My response:
      > I am sorry what I am asking you and what you respond for me is quite different, at least as it appears to me.  My question was: “why you need to express yourself as Catholic (if you really have such a huge difference with Catholic theology)”
      >  
      > You wrote:
      > The Catholic and the Trinitarian Protestant churches's theology on "the One God and the Three Persons" is based on "MYSTERY" which I say is nothing but their acceptance of their state of "UNKNOWING." That I cannot live with intellectually.
      >  
      > My response:
      > Well, I think the issue hinges on what do you mean by “MYSTERY” As Rob Bowman Currently doing there is an intellectual aspect of the issue and it has it own “MYSTERY” facet as well. I am comfortable with that (MYSTERY” for two big reasons: (1) there is a possibility to comprehend the God who creates the universe. (2) We only know God as much as the He reveals Himself to us. And the only source of knowledge what we have about the Trinity is the Bible.  So the best of my knowledge there is no contradiction to be “intellectual” and accept the Biblical revelation as it is.  
      >  
      > You wrote:
      > Yes, precisely as you understood my position. Three Persons, each being fully manifesting the One Infinite God and together at all times, according to their separate roles, doing the work of the One God, in creation, in human history, and in the salvation of fallen humankind.
      >  
      > My response:
      > I am not really sure I “precisely” understand your position.  Still it is vague to me. So I need some more explanation. What do my mean by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the “separate roles of…the One God, in creation, in human history, and in the salvation of fallen humankind”. Would you explain what does “separate role” mean?  
      >  
      > You wrote:
      > Traditional Trinitarians claim that the TRINITY is the One God. But that doctrine cannot be deduced from the Bible. What can be deduced from the Bible are that "the Father is God,' "the Son is God," and the "Holy Spirit is God." But since the OT and the NT both declare that "GOD IS ONE!," the Church council sometime in AD 325 declared the TRINITY is the One God.
      >
      > My study of the Bible led me to say that the Bible does not support that conclusion. Rather, the TRINITY is the Manifestation of the One Infinite God. The TRINITY is NOT a Person. It is simply a collective term that the Church sometime in 325 AD coined for "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" who individually are Persons, each manifesting the One Person of the One God.
      >
      > To say that the TRINITY IS THE ONE GOD makes God a NON-PERSON since the Trinity is NOT a Person. Or one is forced to imagine a THREE-HEADED GOD in One BODY, each head representing One Person. This is absurd, hence the claim that it is a MYSTERY!
      >
      > My claim that "Behind the TRINITY is the ONE INFINITE GOD" is to recognize and accept the REALITY of the One Infinite, Unknowable, Unseeable, Incomprehensible, and Unnameable GOD manifested as "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," each having the same essence as the One God, carrying out the will and purpose of the One God, speaking the words of the One God, always acting as One according to their separate roles as separate Persons.
      >  
      > My response:
      >  
      > I think what do we mean by the word “one” plays a crucial role here. “Traditional Trinitarians claim that the TRINITY is the One God”.  Yes, that is by nature or essence. Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are fully God.  I couldn’t see any problem on that. I really do not know why do you say: “But that doctrine cannot be deduced from the Bible”.   
      >  
      > Again I need some more explanation from your side. Would you explain how do you use the word “MANIFESTATION” here. Do you mean that one God manifest himself as the Father, as the Son, as the Holy Spirit? If I correctly understood you,   now I see four separate things. One God and the rest of three are manifestations (God, Son, Holy Spirit).  If this is your view of God (still I am not sure) what is the difference and the relationship between the ONE God and the Three persons? As the traditional Christian claim that I am associating my self, the Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit are fully God. And the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct in person (form eternity past to eternity future).   Now you create the fourth one, “Behind the TRINITY is the ONE INFINITE GOD"  
      >  
      > I think I need some more explanation on the following words in relation to the trinity. “One” “manifestation” “person” “God”.  Unless you clearly define these words I do not clearly understood you. We only fight over words than ideas.
      >  
      > Your wrote:
      > Unless and until I am excommunicated by the RCC, which I do not believe I will be, I remain a Roman Catholic, recognizing the Catholic (Universal) Church as the One True Church, the Pope as the True Successor of Peter, and the other so-called "churches" as simple MINISTRIES in the tradition of Paul's "churches" or communities.
      >  
      > My response:
      > What makes you Catholic (the member of “One True Church”) then? Only to claim the Pope is “the true Successor of Peter” is both necessary and sufficient condition to label yourself as a Catholic?
      >  
      > Tesfaye Robele   
      >
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.