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Re: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Resurrection - of the body or the spirit-soul? Part One

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  • Andrew Pike
    Hello Isa, You Wrote: I absolutely agree with your saying (pertaining to spirit creatures appearances in human form) . . but the bodies that they had were
    Message 1 of 63 , Jan 28, 2010
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      Hello Isa,

      You Wrote:
      "I absolutely agree with your saying (pertaining to spirit creatures' appearances in human form) ". . but the bodies that they had were still 'physical' and the same as any other humanoid, therefore they could ingest food." This was exactly what I have been saying all along. My position is that such physical bodies are "more apparent" not being "integral" to the very existence of angels and spirits."
       
      My Response:
      Ditto, but not in the case of Jesus and mankind. God is the God of purpose, he doesn't change, in his original plan mentioned in Genesis chapter one Yahweh said that it, creation, was "good"; he intended for man to live on earth in a physical body. In the book of Job, Job asked the question "If a MAN dies will he live again?" (Job 14:14 'NIV'). He believed that if a man died the very same man (body and all) could live again. Job also asked God how long it would be until God would hide him in 'Sheol' (Job 14:13) which would suggest that one day Job would be released from Sheol and therefore visible to all as a man. The bible makes it clear that it will be a physical body that will be raised in the Resurrection (Isiah 26:19 and Daniel 12:2). Isaiah 25:8 talks about the reproach of death being taken from the earth, which would suggest that humans will live on earth in physical bodies, when reproach is removed.
       
      You Wrote:
      "Good that you have now given me a definite meaning of what "physical resurrection" mean to you and, I presume, to all mainline churches." "Now, since such a resurrection body is "literal flesh and blood," then such a body must have also complete sexual organs for reproduction. Since God's righteousness demands that sexual union must be done within the institution of marriage, then they would still be marrying and given in marriage. But this was the Sadducee's understanding of resurrection which Jesus said was due to their misunderstanding of Scripture." "Mt 22:29-30: Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." "Lk 20:34-36: Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels."
       
      My Response:
      The belief of the majority of main stream denominations is in the 'physical Resurrection of the body.' They base this belief on the physical appearances of Jesus after his resurrection (Matthew 28:9,10; Mark 16:9; and John 20:10-18; to name a few) with the documentation of him consuming fish, as well as the numerous resurrections take from the bible that involved physical bodies being raised from the dead (1 Kings 17:19-24; 2 Kings 4:32-35; 2 Kings 13:21; John 11:34-44; Mathew 9:23-26;Acts 20:9,10; and Acts 9:36-42), not one case mentions a spirit resurrection.
       
      Now with regard to the Sadducees, they didn't believe in either angels or the resurrection. Therefore Jesus said that they did not know the power of God; in effect they were denying God's power! This is what Barnes wrote with regards to the power of God mentioned at Matthew 22:29,30:
       
      "They probably denied, as many have done since, that God could gather the scattered dust of the dead and remould it into a body. On this ground they affirmed that the doctrine could not be true - opposing reason to revelation, and supposing that infinite power could not reorganize a body that it had at first organized" ('Notes on the Bible). Barnes and other Scholars believed in a literal bodily resurrection and highlighted that the Sadducees had no belief in the Resurrection at! Jesus was refuting their, the Sadducee's disbelief in the Resurrection.
       
      As with regards to Luke 20:34-36 being equal to the angels - this equality is in relation to not being able to die (verse 36). The preceding verses do mention people not getting married or being given in marriage, this doesn't mean to say that we will be anatomically different from what we are now! Since we will be raised in the same bodies (there is though some change from from corruption to incorruptibility). The Gospel uses the terms "sons", do you take this as a literal reference to both men and women? If we were to get technical then we could say that every person in the Resurrection will be 'men' or 'sons' of God, as; a) All angels that appeared did so in male form; and b) The scripture calls the resurrected humans "sons!" Where does this leave women in the Resurrection? I think that making the claim that humans will be with out gender is pure speculation.
       
      You Wrote:
       "If biological or flesh, must include sexual capacity. Again, since righteousness demands that sexual union be done within the institution of marriage, then in the resurrection they would still be marrying and given in marriage. But this was the Sadducee's understanding of resurrection which Jesus said was the result of their misunderstanding of Scripture. If humanity is in the resurrected spirit-soul from the "state of death in Sheol" then sexual relation is not possible and marriage is not demanded of man and woman."
       
      My Response:
      Jesus was in every way human. He is anatomically human, but he didn't engage in sex, just because he has a male body this doesn't mean to say that he engaged in sex, because he didn 't. There are many humans with male or female reproductive organs that don't engage in sex. We can now apply the same logic to the resurrected body. We are raised in a physical body but we don't marry and engage in sex. Where or which scripture says that we wont have sexual reproductive organs? When the two men (a.k.a *angels*) appeared in the time of Sodom and Gomorrah, the people of Sodom said "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know (have sex with) them" (Genesis 19:5 'KJV'). Now could you please explain Jesus' words as recorded at Luke 32:34-36 in relation to Genesis 19? According to the account in Genesis 19 the angels when in human form could engage in sexual relations. Some Scholars (I say some Scholars, as there are various different interpretations and views on the text in question) say that the "sons" of God referred to in Genesis chapter six were none other than angels that took human form and engaged in sex, if they were angels, then why would God give angels the ability to reproduce when their natural bodies were spiritual and their natural dwelling place is heaven? You have made the previous claim that in the Resurrection people will be like angels with out reproductive systems, could you please explain this in light of Genesis 19?
       
      You Wrote.
      "I maintain that the Bible is primarily a book on Spiritual Revelation. Its main focus is on the salvation of the soul or spirit-soul. The most important sayings of Jesus pertains to the soul and not the body. Let us keep this in mind. Our spirit-souls are judged for things we do while in the body. At death, the body turn to dust but our spirit-souls stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

      My Response:
       Jesus' and others often gave reference to the term 'spirit.' Jesus applied his words to people on earth, he didn't wait for his words to come into effect when people go to heaven. He said that:
       
      "Blessed are the poor in spirit" Matt 5:3 'ASV.'
      "David the the spirit" Matthew 22:43 'ASV.'
      "And he sighed deeply in his spirit" Mark 8:12 'ASV.'
      "The spirit is indeed willing" Mark 14:38 'ASV.'
      "The spirit and power of Elijah" Luke 1:17 'ASV.'
       "worship in spirit and truth" John 4:24 'ASV.'
      "the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit" John 6:63 'ASV.'
        
       
      To enter heaven people already had to be born of the "spirit" (John 6:3) not become spirits! All of these references to the term 'spirit' are not to us living in heaven as spirit beings, but to us living on earth as human beings, but in a spiritual way. Now back to my original point with regards to the 'adjective' in Corinthians, it refers to "spiritual" and not 'spirit' beings.
       
      The problems is that we can't take one scripture over another when evaluating a belief, all scriptures are the inspired Word of God and have to be considered with equal merit. This brings me on to Rob's post. Rob has mentioned terms like "flesh" with "spirit", "inner man" with "outer-man", and "body" with "soul" - and this is why he, like other Christians have arrived at a 'dichotomous' approach. The belief is that the bodies that lie in the graves will be united with the spirits in the resurrection when Jesus returns from heaven. This fact is borne out in Matthew 10:28 where some part of man survives and Luke 23:43 where the sinner will be with Jesus in Paradise, then there is the scripture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that mentions the raising of the dead. The Resurrection of the dead.
       
      Take Care,
       
      From Andy

      --- On Sun, 24/1/10, Isa <isalcordo@...> wrote:

      From: Isa <isalcordo@...>
      Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Resurrection - of the body or the spirit-soul? Part One
      To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, 24 January, 2010, 11:25

       
      H, Andy,

      You Wrote:
      The issue though is not with regards to a 'theophany', but can spirits consume food? . . . I know that spirit creatures could spontaneously manifest from the none tangible real to earth, but the bodies that they had were still 'physical' and the same as any other humanoid, therefore they could ingest food.

      My response:
      I absolutely agree with your saying (pertaining to spirit creatures' appearances in human form) ". . but the bodies that they had were still 'physical' and the same as any other humanoid, therefore they could ingest food."

      This was exactly what I have been saying all along. My position is that such physical bodies are "more apparent" not being "integral" to the very existence of angels and spirits.

      You wrote:
      What we mean by a 'physical resurrection' is a person (a man or a women) made from literal 'flesh and blood'; someone like you and I.

      My response:
      Good that you have now given me a definite meaning of what "physical resurrection" mean to you and, I presume, to all mainline churches.

      Now, since such a resurrection body is "literal flesh and blood," then such a body must have also complete sexual organs for reproduction. Since God's righteousness demands that sexual union must be done within the institution of marriage, then they would still be marrying and given in marriage. But this was the Sadducees's understanding of resurrection which Jesus said was due to their misunderstanding of Scripture.

      Mt 22:29-30: Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

      Lk 20:34-36: Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.
      .
      You wrote:
      When the "logos (Word)" became 'flesh' (John 1:14) he added 'humanity' to his already existing 'spirit' (Hebrews 10:5) and "Divinity" (Colossians 2:9 NJB). He didn't lose his "spirit" or "Deity"; he just added humanity to them. The bible tells us that Christ is fully human (1 Timothy 2:5) and he is also fully "Divine (theos)" (John 1:1 Moffatt). If he can (which he did) retain his Deity whilst being human, then why can't he add humanity to his already existing spirit? That's the point that I was making. In the Resurrection though, the body will be raised as flesh like Jesus' and Lazarus' in their resurrections, when we are resurrected we will have 'spiritual' bodies but not a spirit body. I mentioned the use of the 'adjective' in Corinthians with regards to the spiritual body. It was you who mentioned the as Father having a resurrected body. God the Father is "spirit" John 4:24 - not man.

      My response:
      I agree with you that the Christ Spirit in his incarnation as Jesus was "fully God and fully human." The question is "is humanity innately in the biological body or flesh of man" or "in the human spirit?" If in the flesh, then the resurrected body of man, if biological or flesh, must include sexual capacity. Again, since righteousness demands that sexual union be done within the institution of marriage, then in the resurrection they would still be marrying and given in marriage. But this was the Sadducees's understanding of resurrection which Jesus said was the result of their misunderstanding of Scripture.

      If humanity is in the resurrected spirit-soul from the "state of death in Sheol" then sexual relation is not possible and marriage is not demanded of man and woman.

      You Wrote:
      In Ephesians 3:14-17 verse fourteen and fifteen can be taken independently of verse sixteen. I will explain what I mean. Verses 14:15 refer to Paul kneeling to the Father and the family owing their name from God. The scripture in verse 16 mentions that "power" is given "through his spirit (use of the genitive preposition and pronoun)" to "the inner man." The 'GNB' handles this verse quiet well. The 'adverb' tells us that it is in the "man" that power is given. Paul talks about the old self (Ephesians 4:22,24) with reference to our former self or old sinful practice. Paul's former self with all of its practice have passed away.

      2 Corinthians 4:16-17 does say that our body is decaying, but in the resurrection it will be raised incorruptible. The Greek word
      "φθοÏ�ὰ" means "wear and tear (damage)" according to the 'Oxford Classical Greek Dictionary', this is why the body will be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51). Then in verse 53 we encounter the word "αÌ"φθαÏ�σιÌ�αν (indestructability) ", - all of these are in reference to the human body passing over from "damage" to "indestructability. " This is the putting off of an incorruptable body, the body of sin that is related to death. 1 Corinthians 15:42,43 tells us that our body is sown in "dishonour" and "weakness", and raised in "glory" and "power" ('ASV'). Our body is animalistic in nature, but raised spiritual (verse 44). The whole context of chapter fifteen of first Corinthians is dictating the passing over of the sinful animalistic body to a spiritual body. In verse 52-54 we learn that man's body is putting on incorruptability - no more sin.

      Sorry but Romans 7:22 doesn't mention the word 'body' it mentions the members. Paul was saying that various parts of his body find delight in the law.

      My response.
      I maintain that the Bible is primarily a book on Spiritual Revelation. Its main focus is on the salvation of the soul or spirit-soul. The most important sayings of Jesus pertains to the soul and not the body. Let us keep this in mind. Our spirit-souls are judged for things we do while in the body. At death, the body turn to dust but our spirit-souls stand before the judgment seat of Christ,

      May God bless us all.

      Isa
      In Service to the Lay People of God

      --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Andrew Pike <uir.domini@ ....> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Isa,
      >  
      > You Wrote:
      > "That is not correct if the three men was addressed by Abraham as "Yahweh."
      >  
      > (Then you provided a reference with regards to Genesis 18:3 (I've cut the post to reduce the length of my response)).
      >
      > My Response:
      > I can't read Hebrew, so I will have to rely on commentaries and your post (of which I trust), I could ask Robert Cargill (Hebrew language scholar and biblical archaeologist) if he's not on a field trip for some additional information on the text? Or I could ask Albert Pietesmia (Septuagint Scholar) who posts regularly over on Dan Wallace's online group? Clarke claims that the title is "lord" is indeed used, not the name "Yahweh" (Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible). I took a look at the 'LXX' and found the term "Lord" being used. It also appears in verse one of the 'Tanach' of the Masoretic text. Interesting to note is that the 'Septuagint' contains "theos" in verse one which would suggest that Yahweh God spoke to Abraham, and that one of the three men could be Yahweh (the pre carnate Jesus). The issue though is not with regards to a 'theophany', but can spirits consume food? I didn't say that all three men were addressed as Yahweh.
      >  
      > They were addressed as men, the scripture in Genesis 18:8 says that the food was laid before "them (αυτοις 'LXX')" 'ESV.' The food was especially prepared to (dative case) them, which would suggest that they could eat food when assuming a physical form. If we look back to verse two then we will see that the three beings were referred to as men ("τ�εῖς ἄνδ�ες") - its was literal 'flesh and blood' beings who appeared to Abraham, not spirits. I know that spirit creatures could spontaneously manifest from the none tangible real to earth, but the bodies that they had were still 'physical' and the same as any other humanoid, therefore they could ingest food.
      >
      > You wrote:
      > "Read the commentary above. Now, whether the "Persons" addressed by Abraham as "Yahweh" were/was the "Father" or the "Christ Spirit," before His incarnation, either/both were "SPIRIT" beings in reality who in their supernatural spiritual bodies have the power to assume whatever form they wish to appear to their creatures, including the form of humans." - "The Bible never claimed that the "substance" of the Christ Spirit as "spirit" changed in the incarnation or in the resurrection. The incarnation gave the Christ Spirit a living human body; the resurrection gave the Christ Spirit a "human form.." All these without a change in the Christ Spirit's "heavenly or spiritual substance." Thus it is meaningless to submit as an argument that "the Father doesn't have a resurrected body." - And: "I really do not know what you and all claiming a "physical resurrection" meant by the term. Please read my most recent post to Bill."
      >
      > My Response:
      > Ok, I will take another look at the post you sent to Bill. What we mean by a 'physical resurrection' is a person (a man or a women) made from literal 'flesh and blood'; someone like you and I. When the "logos (Word)" became 'flesh' (John 1:14) he added 'humanity' to his already existing 'spirit' (Hebrews 10:5) and "Divinity" (Colossians 2:9 NJB). He didn't lose his "spirit" or "Deity"; he just added humanity to them. The bible tells us that Christ is fully human (1 Timothy  2:5) and he is also fully "Divine (theos)" (John 1:1 Moffatt). If he can (which he did) retain his Deity whilst being human, then why can't he add humanity to his already existing spirit? That's the point that I was making. In the Resurrection though, the body will be raised as flesh like Jesus' and Lazarus' in their resurrections,  when we are resurrected we will have 'spiritual' bodies but not a spirit body. I mentioned the use of the 'adjective' in Corinthians with regards to the
      > spiritual body. It was you who mentioned the as Father having a resurrected body. God the Father is "spirit" John 4:24 - not man.
      >
      > You Wrote:
      > 2That does not mean anything, really. The spirit-soul of man is also called "man." Here are several quotes: Eph 3:14-17: "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father [of our Lord Jesus Christ], 15 of whom every family in [the] heavens and on earth is named, 6 in order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man; . . ." Darby Eph 3:14-16: For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; .. . ." KJV Ro 7:22-24: "For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members." NASB 2 Co 4:16-17: "Therefore we do not lose
      > heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day." NASB"
      >  
      > My Response:
      > In Ephesians 3:14-17 verse fourteen and fifteen can be taken independently of verse sixteen. I will explain what I mean. Verses 14:15 refer to Paul kneeling to the Father and the family owing their name from God. The scripture in verse 16 mentions that "power" is given "through his spirit (use of the genitive preposition and pronoun)" to "the inner man." The 'GNB' handles this verse quiet well. The 'adverb' tells us that it is in the "man" that power is given. Paul talks about the old self (Ephesians 4:22,24) with reference to our former self or old sinful practises. Paul's former self with all of its practises have passed away.
      >
      > 2 Corinthians 4:16-17 does say that our body is decaying, but in the resurrection it will be raised incorruptible. The Greek word
      > "φθοÏ�ὰ" means "wear and tear (damage)" according to the 'Oxford Classical Greek Dictionary', this is why the body will be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51). Then in verse 53 we encounter the word "αÌ"φθαÏ�σιÌ�αν (indestructability) ", - all of these are in reference to the human body passing over from "damage" to "indestructability. " This is the putting off of an incorruptable body, the body of sin that is related to death.. 1 Corinthians 15:42,43 tells us that our body is sown in "dishonour" and "weakness", and raised in "glory" and "power" ('ASV'). Our body is animalistic in nature, but raised spiritual (verse 44). The whole context of chapter fifteen of first Corinthians is dictating the passing over of the sinful animalistic body to a spiritual body. In verse 52-54 we learn that man's body is putting on incorruptability - no more sin.
      >  
      > Sorry but Romans 7:22 doesn't mention the word 'body' it mentions the members. Paul was saying that various parts of his body find delight in the law.
      >  
      > Take Care,
      >  
      > From Andy
      >
      > --- On Sun, 17/1/10, Isa <isalcordo@. ..> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: Isa <isalcordo@. ..>
      > Subject: [biblicalapologetic s] Re: Resurrection - of the body or the spirit-soul?
      > To: biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Sunday, 17 January, 2010, 9:42
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi, Andy: The following are my responses to your post. Sorry it is quite long and a little bit complicated.
      >
      > You wrote:
      > "There is no account in the bible of a 'spirit being' in what some people call an 'incorporeal form' eating food."
      >
      > My response:
      > You cannot continue to ignore Gen 18:1-8 which I cited several times. The LORD God Himself in Gen 18:1-8 assumed the form of a human body to speak to Abraham and did eat the food offered by Abraham to Him, as did the resurrected Jesus. The resurrected Jesus, as with God has a supernatural resurrected body - not a natural biological body - that is able to assume any apparently solid form as He wishes to be perceived by His creatures. The resurrected body of Jesus can even instantaneously appear and disappear at his will which no biological body can accompplish.
      >
      > You wrote:
      > Mark 14:24-26 says that Jesus will not drink the wine until he is in the Kingdom. How can a spirit drink wine?
      >
      > My response:
      > Again, the resurrected Jesus, in his supernatural body, stayed with his apostles for 40 days during which time he would have been eating and drinking with them. But his eating and drinking with his apostles do not prove that Jesus' body was a biological body since the supernatural body of God Himself in Gen 18:1-8 was able to do the same. Yet we will never say that God has a biological body. We definitely may say that God has the power to appear in any form He wishes and that includes human form, biological or not. So can the resurrected Jesus.
      >
      > Again, unlike natural biological bodies, there is no limit on what the supernatural resurrected body of Jesus can do. So let us not put any limit on him by insisting that by his eating and drinking his body must be biological..
      >
      > You Wrote:
      > ". . . the bible is clear in that Christ is returning to this earth.
      >
      > My response:
      > This is outside the topic on resurrection. So let us leave it at that. Or please support your claim with Bible verses.
      >
      > You wrote:
      > The bible says that we will have physical bodies (upon resurrection? -my question) that are spiritual - not a spirit body.
      >
      > My response:
      > Of some 20 Bible versions, I have only two have the phrase "physical bodies" and sixteen verses in some version having "physical body" and they do not support your claim. 1 Co 15:50 denies your claim.
      >
      > 1 Co 15:50: "What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever." (NLT)
      >
      > You wrote:
      > I have already demonstrated evidences from sources such as Jesus' bodily Resurrection, the meaning of the Greek verb, and the use of the 'adjective' in Corinthians to substantiate a physical body in the Resurrection, here are some external references:
      >
      > My response:
      > This must be in another post. I will respond to your earlier post in my next post to you.
      >
      > You wrote/quoted the following external reference:
      >
      > "Let none of you say that this flesh is not judged and does not rise again.. Just think: In what state were you saved, and in what state did you recover your [spiritual] sight, if not in the flesh? In the same manner, as you were called in the flesh, so you shall come in the flesh. If Christ, the Lord who saved us, though he was originally spirit, became flesh and in this state called us, so also shall we receive our reward in the flesh.. Let us, therefore, love one another, so that we may all come into the kingdom of God" (Second Clement 9:1â€"6 [A.D. 150]). \\
      >
      > My response.
      > These are Clement's commentary and interpretation. I agree with him about judgment of the flesh. As a matter of fact, man's body had been judged to be wanting by God with finality - [". . . from dust you were taken, to dust you will return."] - long, long time ago when it disobeyed God that led not only to the death of the body but also a "state of death" to the soul when God formed in man the human spirit which eventually dominated the soul, which is the true "image and likeness of God" and the pristine "true man" before the "spirit born of disobedience" set in.
      >
      > Now, I say that Clement was strongly influenced by the earliest Jewish thought on the "nature of man."
      >
      > Early Jewish thought believes that man is nothing but "dust" quicken or enlivened by God's life-breath which is also the same life-breath in all air-enhaling animals, hence impersonal "spirit or breath." When living flesh is deprived of air, it dies and turn to dust, and that is the end of man. Even to the present, some Jews retain this concept of man.
      >
      > Ecc 3:18-20: "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return."
      >
      > That then was the "animal-man" in old Jewish thought so that the Sadducees believed that if there ever was such a thing as a resurrection, IT MUST BE THE RESURRECTION OF THE BIOLOGICAL BODY THAT HAD DIED!
      >
      > And Jesus said they were WRONG. Jesus in Mt 22:29-31 said: "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."
      >
      > So, the Sadducees, Clement, and all who believe in biological resurrection of dead biological bodies are all in ERROR.
      >
      > Progressive unveiling of spiritual truth by the Holy Spirit had led Paul to declare that man is BODY-SOUL-SPIRIT (1 Th 5:23), with the body a mere receptacle to the true, eternal entity, SPIRIT-SOUL, which is the TRUE MAN and immortal or imperishable (1 Co 15:50).
      >
      > You/Clement wrote:
      > "Indeed, God calls even the body to resurrection and promises it everlasting life. When he promises to save the man, he thereby makes his promise to the flesh. What is man but a rational living being composed of soul and body? Is the soul by itself a man? No, it is but the soul of a man. Can the body be called a man? No, it can but be called the body of a man. If, then, neither of these is by itself a man, but that which is composed of the two together is called a man, and if God has called man to life and resurrection, he has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and the body" (The Resurrection 8 [A.D. 153]).
      >
      > My response:
      > I believe that 2 Co 4:16-5:10 does not support Clement's position that man "must be integrally soul and biological body." While it is true that the body without the spirit-soul, being a dead body, cannot be called a man, IT IS NOT TRUE THAT THE SPIRIT-SOUL WITHOUT A BIOLOGICAL BODY CANNOT BE CALLED A MAN. The spirit-soul can truly be called "the man" since that spirit soul retains the spiritual integrity of the dead man, his person, personality, memories, and is accountable for all acts done while still in the body and is the one called to stand before God for JUDGMENT.
      >
      > Let us analyze 2 Co 4:16-18.
      >
      > 16 "Therefore we (as whole man) do not lose heart. Though outwardly we (as biological body) are wasting away, yet inwardly we (as spirit-soul) are being renewed day by day."
      >
      > 17 "For our light and momentary troubles (in the body) are achieving for us (as spirits-souls) an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen (our wasting biological body), but on what is unseen (our spirit-soul being renewed day by day). For what is seen (our biological body) is temporary, but what is unseen (our spirit-soul) is eternal."
      >
      > In the verses quoted above, we see very clearly the distinct and separate nature and existence of the body - wasting away - and the spirit-soul - being renewed day by day.
      >
      > Now, to go to 2 Co 5:1-5. Here, I have supplied in parenthesis the appropriate nouns for the pronouns for clarity consistent with 2 Co 4 above and the normal meanings for the metaphors, again for clarity. Commentators are content to understand "we" to mean "Christians or Believers." BUT CHRISTIANS OR BELIEVERS DO NOT LIVE IN EARTHLY TENTS (BIOLOGICAL BODIES). SPIRIT-SOULS DO!
      >
      > 1 "Now we, (spiritâ€"soul) , know that if the earthly tent, (our biological body), we, (spirit-soul) , live in, (biological body), is destroyed, we, (spirit-soul) , have a building from God, an eternal house, (an eternal body), in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we, (spirit-soul) , groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, (heavenly body), 3 because when we, (spirit-soul) , are clothed, (embodied with heavenly body), we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, (biological body), we, (spirit-soul) , groan and are burdened, because we (spirit-soul) do not wish to be unclothed, (deprived of biological body upon its death), but to be clothed, (embodied), with our heavenly dwelling (heavenly body), so that what is mortal, (life of spirit-soul in biological body), may be swallowed up by life, (eternal life). 5 Now it is God who has made us, (spirit-soul) for this very purpose and has given us (spirit-soul) the
      > Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
      >
      > 6 "Therefore we, (spirit-soul) , are always confident and know that as long as we, (spirit-soul) , are at home in the body we, (spirit-soul) , are away from the Lord. 7 We, (spirit-soul bound to the biological body) live by faith, not by sight. 8 We, (spirit-soul) , are confident, I, (Paul as spirit-soul) , say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we, (spirit-souls) , make it our goal to please him, whether we, (spirit-soul) , are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we, (spirit-soul) , must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one (spirit-soul) may receive what is due him (spirit-soul) for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
      >
      > The clinching argument in support of my analysis and substitution of the pronouns by "spirit-soul" is in the last statement: ". . . each one (spirit-soul) may receive what is due him for the things done WHILE STILL IN THE BODY (capitalized for emphasis), whether good or bad.." It is clear that only spirits-souls are properly addressed by the phrase ". . . while still in the body."
      >
      > Now, Jesus in Jn 11:25-26 said, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
      >
      > Resurrection is NOT an event. Resurrection is a PERSON named JESUS. And since Jesus' PAROUSIA sometime in AD 70 there has been no more spirit-soul death for all who are in Jesus upon the death of the body. It may not be farfetched to claim that "Sheol is empty of the spirit-souls of those who died believing and trusting in Jesus Christ as their LORD and SAVIOR! And I believe that spirit-souls who have partaken of heavenly bliss want no part in a so-called "resurrection as an event."
      >
      > May God bless us all.
      >
      > Isa
      > In Service to the Lay People of God
      >
      > --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Andrew Pike <uir.domini@ ...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello Isa,
      > >  
      > >  You Wrote:
      > >  
      > > "I believe that all who believe in the resurrection of the "body" as being a "biological body" is forced to such a position by a non-Biblical presumption that "spiritual entities" do not have "bodies." and "They also assume, that all bodies that have the apparent ability to "eat or take in food," as the resurrected Jesus did, must be biological. "
      > >  
      > > I believe that spirit beings such as God do have some form of a body, but he is not a man. There is no account in the bible of a 'spirit being' in what some people call an 'incorporeal form' eating food. Mark 14:24-26 says that Jesus will not drink the wine until he is in the Kingdom. How can a spirit drink wine?
      > >  
      > > You Wrote:
      > >  
      > > "Php 3:20-21: But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."
      > > "
      > > Our Citizenship is in heaven, but the bible is clear in that Christ is returning to this earth. The bible says that we will have physical bodies that are spiritual - not a spirit body. I have already demonstrated evidences from sources such as Jesus' bodily Resurrection, the meaning of the Greek verb, and the use of the 'adjective' in Corinthians to substantiate a physical body in the Resurrection, here are some external references:
      > >  
      > > "Let none of you say that this flesh is not judged and does not rise again. Just think: In what state were you saved, and in what state did you recover your [spiritual] sight, if not in the flesh? In the same manner, as you were called in the flesh, so you shall come in the flesh. If Christ, the Lord who saved us, though he was originally spirit, became flesh and in this state called us, so also shall we receive our reward in the flesh. Let us, therefore, love one another, so that we may all come into the kingdom of God" (Second Clement 9:1â€"6 [A.D. 150]).
      > >  
      > > "Indeed, God calls even the body to resurrection and promises it everlasting life. When he promises to save the man, he thereby makes his promise to the flesh.. What is man but a rational living being composed of soul and body? Is the soul by itself a man? No, it is but the soul of a man. Can the body be called a man? No, it can but be called the body of a man. If, then, neither of these is by itself a man, but that which is composed of the two together is called a man, and if God has called man to life and resurrection, he has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and the body" (The Resurrection 8 [A.D. 153]).
      > >  
      > > Take Care,
      > >  
      > > From Andy
      > >
      > > --- On Sat, 16/1/10, Isa <isalcordo@ ..> wrote:
      >


    • Jeff
      Isa, I m so backlogged I didn t see this until after the other replies. I ll tell you what. Considering I don t have a lot of time to read this (and I know
      Message 63 of 63 , Feb 27, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Isa,

        I'm so backlogged I didn't see this until after the other replies.

        I'll tell you what. Considering I don't have a lot of time to read this (and I know enough to know that there are probably sites that say just the opposite), I'll read it only under one condition. That is if you read David Dolan's good book "Holy War for the Holy Land". Does your article agree or disagree with his suppositions? If it agrees, it may be worth reading.

        Thanks again.

        Jeff

        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi, Jeff:
        >
        > This is an addendum to my latest post to you. Check this webpage: http://sites.google.com/site/911newworldorderfiles/quotesonzionism
        >
        > It got lost in that post.
        >
        > Isa
        > In Service to the Lay People of God
        > --------------
        >
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