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Re: Physical resurrection of the body

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  • Isa
    Rob: Here are my comments to your quotes. You wrote: Jesus teaches a future resurrection of the dead in several places in John, the Gospel you cited against
    Message 1 of 68 , Oct 31, 2009
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      Rob:

      Here are my comments to your quotes.

      You wrote:
      Jesus teaches a future resurrection of the dead in several places in John, the Gospel you cited against this idea:

      "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:28-29).

      My response:
      I agree that a future time is indicated in the verses above. But the fact that Jesus used "hour" rather than "day or days" implied that that hour must be very very close from Jesus' point of view talking then as a human being.

      I believe that that "hour" could be "at the point of his resurrection-ascension" or "at the full outpouring of God's wrath on the Jewish temple" in AD 70 which marked the end of the special relationship between God and the Jewish people. There were no other epochal events in history to vindicate Jesus' and Paul's eschatological prophesies which both claimed would occur in their generation except these two. Please refer to my post immediately prior to this.

      You wrote:
      "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.... No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on he last day" (John 6:39-40, 44, 54).

      My response:
      I again agree with you that there is future time element in these verses, but in this case, "last day" is not "one day in the future" but the time "starting from either of those two epochal events I cited to the very end of time when God would decide enough is enough." But from the "beginning to the end," Jesus is raising and will be raising to eternal life the spirits of those who deserve eternal life. This is what I mean that "resurrection is not a "one time event" but the continuous raising of the spirits of man from "a state of death in God's perspective" into "life in God in the spirit" beginning at Jesus' resurrection-ascension or at the termination of the Jewish age.

      You wrote:
      Jesus also teaches a future resurrection in Luke:

      "Then Jesus said to his host, 'When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the
      righteous'" (Luke 14:12-14).

      My response:
      Again, the phrase "at the resurrection of the righteous" does specifically mean "a one day event in the future." The resurrection in this phrase does not preclude "a beginning and a long, long, long time to the end."

      You wrote:
      In Jesus' discussion with the Sadducees, he does not deny the future resurrection of the dead, but corrects the Sadducees on the subject. In Luke, that Jesus was affirming that the resurrection would be in the future is clearer than in Matthew:

      "But those who are considered worthy of a place in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. Indeed they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection" (Luke 20:35-36).

      My response:
      Again, the verses do not support "a one day event in the future." That "age" could have begun at either of the two epochal events (which was still future when Jesus said those words) with the resurrection still going on to this day.

      You wrote:
      Nor is Jesus denying a future resurrection in John 11:25-26. As I have already shown, he affirms it several times in John. The point in John 11:25-26 is that our eternal life is already assured in the present if we trust in Jesus Christ as our resurrection life. We "will never die" in the sense that our physical death will be merely temporary. Jesus' teaching reflects the same "already but not yet" tension found throughout the New Testament.

      My response/comment::
      The almost two-thousand-year-old expectation of a "second coming of Jesus (in flesh ?)" is the result of rationalizing the "perceived failure" of Jesus' and Paul's prophesies to come to pass, which led some to call them "false prophets." This is/was due, in no small part, to the "physicalizing of the resurrection of the dead" instead of recognizing the resurrection for what it was/is for us - the raising of our spirits from death (dead from God's perspective but alive in our flesh), because of disobedience, enviousness, and covetousness, to a new life of love in God through obedience to God's will which is to have faith in Jesus as personal Savior and Sovereign Lord.

      In the NT, "physical" is used for "flesh" in the Greek Interlinear. Thus, to say "physical resurrection" is to say "fleshly resurrection." This sounds to me like "Buddhistic reincarnation" rather than Christian resurrection.

      You wrote:
      In Christ, we have eternal life now, but we have not yet received the immortality that will come in the future resurrection.

      My response:
      If man can become immortal like God, then man has become God, not just God-like, absolutely indestructible by God. Could this be true?

      I think, Ro 2:7-8 says it correctly: "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

      After all, God alone is immortal as 1 Ti 6:15-16 dclares: "God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen."

      I may be wrong, Rob, but to me, to have eternal life conotes dependence on someone/somthing as source of that life. To be immortal conotes "absolute indestructibility" even against other immortals.

      God bless us all in our search for God's truths.

      Isa
      In Service to the Lay People of God


      -------------



      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
      >
      > Isa,
      >
      > It is unfortunate and unnecessary that you are pitting the teaching of Jesus on resurrection against that of the apostle Paul. Both are part of the teaching of Scripture, all of which is inspired and authoritative for Christian doctrine.
      >
      > Jesus teaches a future resurrection of the dead in several places in John, the Gospel you cited against this idea:
      >
      > "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:28-29).
      >
      > "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.... No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day" (John 6:39-40, 44, 54).
      >
      > Jesus also teaches a future resurrection in Luke:
      >
      > "Then Jesus said to his host, 'When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous'" (Luke 14:12-14).
      >
      > In Jesus' discussion with the Sadducees, he does not deny the future resurrection of the dead, but corrects the Sadducees on the subject. In Luke, that Jesus was affirming that the resurrection would be in the future is clearer than in Matthew:
      >
      > "But those who are considered worthy of a place in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. Indeed they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection" (Luke 20:35-36).
      >
      > Nor is Jesus denying a future resurrection in John 11:25-26. As I have already shown, he affirms it several times in John. The point in John 11:25-26 is that our eternal life is already assured in the present if we trust in Jesus Christ as our resurrection life. We "will never die" in the sense that our physical death will be merely temporary. Jesus' teaching reflects the same "already but not yet" tension found throughout the New Testament. In Christ, we have eternal life now, but we have not yet received the immortality that will come in the future resurrection.
      >
      > In Christ's service,
      > Rob Bowman
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Tom M., Thank you for referring me that book. I will try to get hold of it.
      > >
      > > Rob, Bill, Tom, M., and all:
      > >
      > > Back to the resurrection:
      > >
      > > Consider the words of Jesus in Jn 11:25-26: Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
      > >
      > > Jesus said the words above to correct Martha who had been taught to believe in the resurrection in the last days: Jn 11:23-24: Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
      > >
      > > Again, consider the words of Jesus in Mt 22:29-32: Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead — have you not read what God said to you, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
      > >
      > > Again, Jesus said this to correct the error of the Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection and had the wrong understanding of it.
      > >
      > > The words of Jesus show clearly that "resurrection" is not a future event. It is entering into life in the spirit through faith in God for the Old Covenant saints Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and through faith in Jesus for the NT believers then as now in a confession that "Jesus is Savior and Sovereign Lord" and in deed through "baptism in water and Spirit in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
      > >
      > > It was Paul who gave the resurrection its "temporal character" due to his expectation and misunderstanding of the "end of the age/world" which he strongly believed and taught will happen in his lifetime.
      > >
      > > Thus, in 1 Co 15:50-54, Paul plainly said, "50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
      > >
      > > But note the similarity between what Jesus said for the dead in Jn 11:25: ". . . He who believes in me will live, even though he dies" to what Paul said in 1 Co 15: 52: ". . . the dead will be raised imperishable, and will be changed."
      > >
      > > Consider also what these two said for the living. In Jn 11:26, Jesus said: ". . . and whoever lives and believes in me will never die," while Paul said in 1 Co 15:51: "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."
      > >
      > > Undeniably, both were talking about the "resurrection." The difference lies primarily in the "temporal character" built into Paul's statement, while none whatsoever can be found in the words of Jesus.
      > >
      > > Jesus' words tell us that "eternal life," "entering the kingdom of God" or "resurrection" which is really "entering life in the spirit in God" starts now here on earth (see Matthew 7:21-23).
      > >
      > > Upon the separation of the "spirit-soul," which has all the full form of the physical body it left behind, that leads to its death, this spirit-soul wakes up into its new abode in a "glorious spiritual body" fit for its new abode with all its memories/consciousness and as solid in its new abode as it was on earth.
      > >
      > > Here is Paul's declaration about this: 1 Co 15: 42: "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable (subject to decay and in time would be dust), it is raised imperishable (the bodily-form now carried over into that of the spirit-soul); 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."
      > >
      > > I believe that this is the way that the Second Person of the Trinity (Jesus) acquired His finite-bodily form of man as revealed in the Book of Revelation to glorify that form that suffered the brunt of the passion and death by crucifixion. Further glory was granted by God the Father to the human body of Jesus by not allowing it to suffer corruption in death. Such honor and privilege is just simply not for our bodies.
      > >
      > > As for the book of Revelation in Rv 20:4-6, John saw the souls ". . came to life (of course in well-defined bodily form) and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Who were these judges judging? Most likely the spirit-souls of believers coming into heaven who did not suffer martyrdom.
      > >
      > > It appears to me that the churches' understanding of resurrection was/is influenced more by Rev 20:5 than the teachings of Jesus:("The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."
      > >
      > > Do these verses mean that only the spirit-souls of those who were martyred (beheaded) attained life in spirit in God? Now, between the words of Jesus and that of John, I will put my faith in Jesus (". . . whoever lives and believes in me will never die.") than those of John above.
      > >
      > > I welcome your comments/criticisms. May God bless us all in our search for His truths.
      > >
      > > Isa
      > > In Service to the Lay People of God
      >
    • William
      Isabelo, I have compiled a list of references to a second realm for the dead for the ancient Israelites. I am using Dahood s translation of the Psalms to find
      Message 68 of 68 , Nov 22, 2009
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        Isabelo,

        I have compiled a list of references to a second realm for the dead for the ancient Israelites. I am using Dahood's translation of the Psalms to find these references. That is to say, look in the Anchor Bible series, Volumes 16-17a for the clear references. If you don't have easy access to these works, I will type out the references for you. Dahood has changed the translation of most of the Psalms in light of what has been learned from Ugaritic and other NW Semetic languages, which are all related to Hebrew, especially in regards to grammar, but also vocabulary.

        Psalm 23:6

        Psalm 27:4

        Psalm 31:3

        Psalm 36:9

        Psalm 56:14:

        Psalm 61 Multiple references

        Psalm 65:4

        Psalm 73:16-18

        Psalm 84 Multiple references

        Psalm 92:13-14

        Psalm 116:9

        Hopefully in a few more days I will have compiled a list of references to stairways/ladders in regards to accessing the blessed realms in ancient non-Israelite cultures.

        Bill
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