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Re: [biblicalapologetics] Greg Stafford's paper

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  • Patrick Navas
    Rob,   Here is Greg Stafford s discussion on John 12.   If you have time, perhaps you could re-read my paper. There are several significant points I make
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 20, 2009
    Rob,
     
    Here is Greg Stafford's discussion on John 12.
     
    If you have time, perhaps you could re-read my paper. There are several significant points I make that Stafford doesn't make on this issue. For example, I point out that John's statement in 12:41 about Isaiah is very simlar to Jesus' statement about Abraham in John 8:56. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
     
     In this case, Jesus did not mean that Abraham had literally "seen" the Messiah in some kind of pre-existent state. Rather, Abraham "saw" in the sense that he looked forward in faith to the "day" of the Messiah with gladness. He "saw" the Messiah's day from afar off, with the eyes of faith, based on God's word, and there isn't any specific text in Genesis we can connect this to, since it probably encompasses the overall sense in which Abraham looked forward in joyful expectation to the coming Messiah. So John's statement about Isaiah could very easily and very naturally carry a similar connotation. That is, Isaiah "saw" the "glory" of the Messiah and spoke about him, not in the sense that he literally saw the 'pre-existent Messiah' (either as a member of the Trinitarian Jehovah or as the Son of God), but in the sense that Isaiah foresaw, as a visionary and prophet, the future "glory" of the Messiah based on God's revelation to him. As I point out in my paper, it is very clear in Isaiah's wirtings that he had a good view of the future glorious status, nature ,and work of the foretold Messiah, based on all the glorious things that Isaiah speaks and writes about him.
     
    --Patrick
     

    --- On Sun, 9/20/09, Rob <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:

    From: Rob <faithhasitsreasons@...>
    Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: John 12:41 (from Patrick Navas)
    To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 2:23 PM

     
    Patrick,

    Thanks for your response. You pointed out some deficiencies in my paper and I am working on revising and improving it substantially.

    Can you provide me with a copy of Greg Stafford's response to James White on John 12?

    In Christ's service,
    Rob Bowman

  • Rob
    Patrick, I have already re-read your paper, and as I said, I am working on a response. I m not sure yet, but I may wait to complete my revised paper until I
    Message 2 of 7 , Sep 20, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Patrick,

      I have already re-read your paper, and as I said, I am working on a response. I'm not sure yet, but I may wait to complete my revised paper until I get my copy of Stafford's third edition, which they tell me I should get at the end of the month.

      Thanks for the copy of Stafford's paper responding to White. Does he have this online somewhere?

      In Christ's service,
      Rob Bowman



      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:
      >
      > Rob,
      >  
      > Here is Greg Stafford's discussion on John 12.
      >  
      > If you have time, perhaps you could re-read my paper. There are several significant points I make that Stafford doesn't make on this issue. For example, I point out that John's statement in 12:41 about Isaiah is very simlar to Jesus' statement about Abraham in John 8:56. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
      >  
      >  In this case, Jesus did not mean that Abraham had literally "seen" the Messiah in some kind of pre-existent state. Rather, Abraham "saw" in the sense that he looked forward in faith to the "day" of the Messiah with gladness. He "saw" the Messiah's day from afar off, with the eyes of faith, based on God's word, and there isn't any specific text in Genesis we can connect this to, since it probably encompasses the overall sense in which Abraham looked forward in joyful expectation to the coming Messiah. So John's statement about Isaiah could very easily and very naturally carry a similar connotation. That is, Isaiah "saw" the "glory" of the Messiah and spoke about him, not in the sense that he literally saw the 'pre-existent Messiah' (either as a member of the Trinitarian Jehovah or as the Son of God), but in the sense that Isaiah foresaw, as a visionary and prophet, the future "glory" of the Messiah based on God's revelation to him. As I point out in
      > my paper, it is very clear in Isaiah's wirtings that he had a good view of the future glorious status, nature ,and work of the foretold Messiah, based on all the glorious things that Isaiah speaks and writes about him.
      >  
      > --Patrick
      >
      >  
      >
      > --- On Sun, 9/20/09, Rob <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: Rob <faithhasitsreasons@...>
      > Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: John 12:41 (from Patrick Navas)
      > To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 2:23 PM
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > Patrick,
      >
      > Thanks for your response. You pointed out some deficiencies in my paper and I am working on revising and improving it substantially.
      >
      > Can you provide me with a copy of Greg Stafford's response to James White on John 12?
      >
      > In Christ's service,
      > Rob Bowman
      >
    • Patrick Navas
      Rob,   Stafford did have it online at one point, but, I don t know what happened to it. The copy I sent you is from a while back but it hasn t been altered in
      Message 3 of 7 , Sep 20, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Rob,
         
        Stafford did have it online at one point, but, I don't know what happened to it. The copy I sent you is from a while back but it hasn't been altered in any way.
         
        --Patrick

        --- On Sun, 9/20/09, Rob <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:

        From: Rob <faithhasitsreasons@...>
        Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Greg Stafford's paper
        To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 9:03 PM

         
        Patrick,

        I have already re-read your paper, and as I said, I am working on a response. I'm not sure yet, but I may wait to complete my revised paper until I get my copy of Stafford's third edition, which they tell me I should get at the end of the month.

        Thanks for the copy of Stafford's paper responding to White. Does he have this online somewhere?

        In Christ's service,
        Rob Bowman

        --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Rob,
        >  
        > Here is Greg Stafford's discussion on John 12.
        >  
        > If you have time, perhaps you could re-read my paper. There are several significant points I make that Stafford doesn't make on this issue. For example, I point out that John's statement in 12:41 about Isaiah is very simlar to Jesus' statement about Abraham in John 8:56. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
        >  
        >  In this case, Jesus did not mean that Abraham had literally "seen" the Messiah in some kind of pre-existent state. Rather, Abraham "saw" in the sense that he looked forward in faith to the "day" of the Messiah with gladness. He "saw" the Messiah's day from afar off, with the eyes of faith, based on God's word, and there isn't any specific text in Genesis we can connect this to, since it probably encompasses the overall sense in which Abraham looked forward in joyful expectation to the coming Messiah. So John's statement about Isaiah could very easily and very naturally carry a similar connotation. That is, Isaiah "saw" the "glory" of the Messiah and spoke about him, not in the sense that he literally saw the 'pre-existent Messiah' (either as a member of the Trinitarian Jehovah or as the Son of God), but in the sense that Isaiah foresaw, as a visionary and prophet, the future "glory" of the Messiah based on God's revelation to him. As I point out in
        > my paper, it is very clear in Isaiah's wirtings that he had a good view of the future glorious status, nature ,and work of the foretold Messiah, based on all the glorious things that Isaiah speaks and writes about him.
        >  
        > --Patrick
        >
        >  
        >
        > --- On Sun, 9/20/09, Rob <faithhasitsreasons @...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Rob <faithhasitsreasons @...>
        > Subject: [biblicalapologetic s] Re: John 12:41 (from Patrick Navas)
        > To: biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 2:23 PM
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        > Patrick,
        >
        > Thanks for your response. You pointed out some deficiencies in my paper and I am working on revising and improving it substantially.
        >
        > Can you provide me with a copy of Greg Stafford's response to James White on John 12?
        >
        > In Christ's service,
        > Rob Bowman
        >

      • Rob
        Patrick, I had written: I m not sure yet, but I may wait to complete my revised paper until I get my copy of Stafford s third edition, which they tell me I
        Message 4 of 7 , Sep 20, 2009
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          Patrick,

          I had written:

          "I'm not sure yet, but I may wait to complete my revised paper until I get my copy of Stafford's third edition, which they tell me I should get at the end of the month."

          I have just learned that the third edition does not include Stafford's discussion on John 12:41; he has dropped those pages from his book. So, I won't be waiting for his book to arrive to finish my paper.

          In Christ's service,
          Rob Bowman
        • Paul Leonard
          Hi Patrick, Can you8 send me a copy of the reply to White? I have no intention of buying Stafford s book. ... in ... . Hi Patrick, Can you8 send me a copy of
          Message 5 of 7 , Sep 20, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Patrick,

            Can you8 send me a copy of the reply to White?

            I have no intention of buying Stafford's book.



            --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > Rob,
            >  
            > Here is Greg Stafford's discussion on John 12.
            >  
            > If you have time, perhaps you could re-read my paper. There are several significant points I make that Stafford doesn't make on this issue. For example, I point out that John's statement in 12:41 about Isaiah is very simlar to Jesus' statement about Abraham in John 8:56. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
            >  
            >  In this case, Jesus did not mean that Abraham had literally "seen" the Messiah in some kind of pre-existent state. Rather, Abraham "saw" in the sense that he looked forward in faith to the "day" of the Messiah with gladness. He "saw" the Messiah's day from afar off, with the eyes of faith, based on God's word, and there isn't any specific text in Genesis we can connect this to, since it probably encompasses the overall sense in which Abraham looked forward in joyful expectation to the coming Messiah. So John's statement about Isaiah could very easily and very naturally carry a similar connotation. That is, Isaiah "saw" the "glory" of the Messiah and spoke about him, not in the sense that he literally saw the 'pre-existent Messiah' (either as a member of the Trinitarian Jehovah or as the Son of God), but in the sense that Isaiah foresaw, as a visionary and prophet, the future "glory" of the Messiah based on God's revelation to him. As I point out in
            > my paper, it is very clear in Isaiah's wirtings that he had a good view of the future glorious status, nature ,and work of the foretold Messiah, based on all the glorious things that Isaiah speaks and writes about him.
            >  
            > --Patrick
            >
            >  
            >
            > --- On Sun, 9/20/09, Rob <faithhasitsreasons @...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Rob <faithhasitsreasons @...>
            > Subject: [biblicalapologetic s] Re: John 12:41 (from Patrick Navas)
            > To: biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com
            > Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 2:23 PM
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            > Patrick,
            >
            > Thanks for your response. You pointed out some deficiencies in my paper and I am working on revising and improving it substantially.
            >
            > Can you provide me with a copy of Greg Stafford's response to James White on John 12?
            >
            > In Christ's service,
            > Rob Bowman
            >

            .

          • Patrick Navas
            Here is Stafford s disccusion on White, relative to John 12:41.   Patrick ... From: Paul Leonard Subject: Re:
            Message 6 of 7 , Sep 20, 2009
            Here is Stafford's disccusion on White, relative to John 12:41.
             
            Patrick

            --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:

            From: Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...>
            Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Greg Stafford's paper
            To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:29 AM

             
            Hi Patrick,

            Can you8 send me a copy of the reply to White?

            I have no intention of buying Stafford's book.


            --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > Rob,
            >  
            > Here is Greg Stafford's discussion on John 12.
            >  
            > If you have time, perhaps you could re-read my paper. There are several significant points I make that Stafford doesn't make on this issue. For example, I point out that John's statement in 12:41 about Isaiah is very simlar to Jesus' statement about Abraham in John 8:56. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
            >  
            >  In this case, Jesus did not mean that Abraham had literally "seen" the Messiah in some kind of pre-existent state. Rather, Abraham "saw" in the sense that he looked forward in faith to the "day" of the Messiah with gladness.. He "saw" the Messiah's day from afar off, with the eyes of faith, based on God's word, and there isn't any specific text in Genesis we can connect this to, since it probably encompasses the overall sense in which Abraham looked forward in joyful expectation to the coming Messiah. So John's statement about Isaiah could very easily and very naturally carry a similar connotation. That is, Isaiah "saw" the "glory" of the Messiah and spoke about him, not in the sense that he literally saw the 'pre-existent Messiah' (either as a member of the Trinitarian Jehovah or as the Son of God), but in the sense that Isaiah foresaw, as a visionary and prophet, the future "glory" of the Messiah based on God's revelation to him. As I point out in
            > my paper, it is very clear in Isaiah's wirtings that he had a good view of the future glorious status, nature ,and work of the foretold Messiah, based on all the glorious things that Isaiah speaks and writes about him.
            >  
            > --Patrick
            >
            >  
            >
            > --- On Sun, 9/20/09, Rob <faithhasitsreasons @...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Rob <faithhasitsreasons @...>
            > Subject: [biblicalapologetic s] Re: John 12:41 (from Patrick Navas)
            > To: biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com
            > Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 2:23 PM
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            > Patrick,
            >
            > Thanks for your response. You pointed out some deficiencies in my paper and I am working on revising and improving it substantially.
            >
            > Can you provide me with a copy of Greg Stafford's response to James White on John 12?
            >
            > In Christ's service,
            > Rob Bowman
            >

            .

          • Paul Leonard
            Thanks ... From: Patrick Navas Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Greg Stafford s paper [1 Attachment] To:
            Message 7 of 7 , Sep 20, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks

              --- On Sun, 9/20/09, Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:

              From: Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...>
              Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Greg Stafford's paper [1 Attachment]
              To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 6:03 PM

               

              Here is Stafford's disccusion on White, relative to John 12:41.
               
              Patrick

              --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              From: Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@ yahoo.com>
              Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetic s] Re: Greg Stafford's paper
              To: biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com
              Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:29 AM

               
              Hi Patrick,

              Can you8 send me a copy of the reply to White?

              I have no intention of buying Stafford's book.


              --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Rob,
              >  
              > Here is Greg Stafford's discussion on John 12.
              >  
              > If you have time, perhaps you could re-read my paper. There are several significant points I make that Stafford doesn't make on this issue. For example, I point out that John's statement in 12:41 about Isaiah is very simlar to Jesus' statement about Abraham in John 8:56. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
              >  
              >  In this case, Jesus did not mean that Abraham had literally "seen" the Messiah in some kind of pre-existent state. Rather, Abraham "saw" in the sense that he looked forward in faith to the "day" of the Messiah with gladness.. He "saw" the Messiah's day from afar off, with the eyes of faith, based on God's word, and there isn't any specific text in Genesis we can connect this to, since it probably encompasses the overall sense in which Abraham looked forward in joyful expectation to the coming Messiah. So John's statement about Isaiah could very easily and very naturally carry a similar connotation. That is, Isaiah "saw" the "glory" of the Messiah and spoke about him, not in the sense that he literally saw the 'pre-existent Messiah' (either as a member of the Trinitarian Jehovah or as the Son of God), but in the sense that Isaiah foresaw, as a visionary and prophet, the future "glory" of the Messiah based on God's revelation to him. As I point out in
              > my paper, it is very clear in Isaiah's wirtings that he had a good view of the future glorious status, nature ,and work of the foretold Messiah, based on all the glorious things that Isaiah speaks and writes about him.
              >  
              > --Patrick
              >
              >  
              >
              > --- On Sun, 9/20/09, Rob <faithhasitsreasons @...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Rob <faithhasitsreasons @...>
              > Subject: [biblicalapologetic s] Re: John 12:41 (from Patrick Navas)
              > To: biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com
              > Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 2:23 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Patrick,
              >
              > Thanks for your response. You pointed out some deficiencies in my paper and I am working on revising and improving it substantially.
              >
              > Can you provide me with a copy of Greg Stafford's response to James White on John 12?
              >
              > In Christ's service,
              > Rob Bowman
              >

              .

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