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Re: anti-virgin birth: I would like some input to refute this.

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  • wglmp
    ... This site does document: 1001 Errors in the Christian Bible http://1001errors.com/ Matt
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 1, 2009
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      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
      >
      > Todd,
      >
      > I'm guessing that the Facebook group "101 Contradictions in the Bible" does not provide documentation for its claims. That's one of the main problems with this material you posted (and dozens of similar collections of claims I've seen on the Internet). <

      This site does document:
      1001 Errors in the Christian Bible
      http://1001errors.com/

      Matt
    • faithhasitsreasons
      Matt, You cited the following website: 1001 Errors in the Christian Bible http://1001errors.com/ I m afraid many of these errors are nothing of the sort. For
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 1, 2009
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        Matt,

        You cited the following website:

        1001 Errors in the Christian Bible
        http://1001errors.com/

        I'm afraid many of these "errors" are nothing of the sort.

        For example, the first supposed error listed on the site is the claim that putting Matthew in front of Mark is an error because (most scholars say) Mark was written first. But this assumes the order was intended to be chronological. In the collection of Paul's epistles, Romans comes before the Corinthian epistles, but everybody in the early church understood that Paul wrote Romans after the Corinthian epistles. Not a good start.

        The site also claims that calling the first Gospel "Matthew" is a mistake because this title was added "much later." Well, how much later is now a subject of some discussion, but the trend is now to admit that it was rather sooner than many had guessed (the late Martin Hengel wrote on this subject). In any case, since the title was added later (though probably not much later), if it turned out that Matthew didn't write that Gospel this news would not contradict anything that the Gospel itself says. So the error, if there is one, is not in the text of the biblical writing itself but in the postbiblical apparatus. The author of the website does not seem to know the difference.

        The claim that the inclusion of chapter and verse divisions is another "error" is ludicrous. These are simply convenient marking points to aid in directing readers to specific locations in the text. They have no bearing on whether the Bible was originally inspired or whether its factual statements are true.

        Those are the first three errors discussed on the site, and they all demonstrate a superficiality that, frankly, is embarrassing to see. You'd have to pay me good money before I agreed to go through the other 998.

        In Christ's service,
        Rob Bowman
      • Paul Leonard
        Correct, We could just as easily do a blog called the 10001 (added zero intentional) errors in the site:http://1001errors. com/ There is a vast difference
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 1, 2009
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          Correct,

          We could just as easily do a blog called the 10001 (added zero intentional) errors in the site:http://1001errors. com/

          There is a vast difference between claiming something and proving it.

          --- On Tue, 9/1/09, wglmp <mtillman@...> wrote:

          From: wglmp <mtillman@...>
          Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: anti-virgin birth: I would like some input to refute this.
          To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 8:13 AM

           

          --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons @...> wrote:
          >
          > Todd,
          >
          > I'm guessing that the Facebook group "101 Contradictions in the Bible" does not provide documentation for its claims. That's one of the main problems with this material you posted (and dozens of similar collections of claims I've seen on the Internet). <

          This site does document:
          1001 Errors in the Christian Bible
          http://1001errors. com/

          Matt

        • christian_skeptic
          ... Interesting site. He even argues for the a god translation at John 1:1 (http://1001errors.com/files/Err479-485.html) Rob, your very presence as an
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 2, 2009
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            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "faithhasitsreasons" <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
            >
            > Matt,
            >
            > You cited the following website:
            >
            > 1001 Errors in the Christian Bible
            > http://1001errors.com/
            >
            > I'm afraid many of these "errors" are nothing of the sort.

            Interesting site. He even argues for the "a god" translation at John 1:1 (http://1001errors.com/files/Err479-485.html)

            Rob, your very presence as an "apologist" indicates there is something wrong with the Bible. For instance, Math textbooks don't need apologists. If the Bible is the greatest and most perfect book ever written this should be abundantly clear in its text.

            Heinz

            "EVERY commentary and annotation on the Bible, implicitly declares its fallibility; for if the Scriptures remained genuine and entire, they would not stand in need of commentaries and expositions, but would shine in their infallible lustre and purity without them."
            Ethan Allen
          • faithhasitsreasons
            Heinz, You wrote:
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 5, 2009
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              Heinz,

              You wrote:

              << Rob, your very presence as an "apologist" indicates there is something wrong with the Bible. For instance, Math textbooks don't need apologists. If the Bible is the greatest and most perfect book ever written this should be abundantly clear in its text. >>

              A ridiculous argument. Atheism has its "apologists" as well (e.g., Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens); does this prove that there is something wrong with atheism? Why does atheism need apologists?

              In Christ's service,
              Rob Bowman
            • Jimmy Sloan
              Even mathematics needs teachers to clear up misconceptions. ;) To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com From: faithhasitsreasons@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 5, 2009
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                Even mathematics needs teachers to clear up misconceptions. ;)


                To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                From: faithhasitsreasons@...
                Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 04:59:39 +0000
                Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: 1001 Errors in the Christian Bible

                 
                Heinz,

                You wrote:

                << Rob, your very presence as an "apologist" indicates there is something wrong with the Bible. For instance, Math textbooks don't need apologists. If the Bible is the greatest and most perfect book ever written this should be abundantly clear in its text. >>

                A ridiculous argument. Atheism has its "apologists" as well (e.g., Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens); does this prove that there is something wrong with atheism? Why does atheism need apologists?

                In Christ's service,
                Rob Bowman


              • christian_skeptic
                ... Yes, but in the end there aren t differing factions over whether 1 plus 1 equals 2. Heinz
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 6, 2009
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                  --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Sloan <jimmysloan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Even mathematics needs teachers to clear up misconceptions. ;)
                  >
                  >

                  Yes, but in the end there aren't differing factions over whether 1 plus 1 equals 2.
                  Heinz
                • christian_skeptic
                  ... Rob, there are many things wrong with Atheism. It isn t an affirmation position, it is simply a denial of a belief in gods. I belong to other atheist yahoo
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 6, 2009
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                    --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "faithhasitsreasons" <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Heinz,
                    >
                    > You wrote:
                    >
                    > << Rob, your very presence as an "apologist" indicates there is something wrong with the Bible. For instance, Math textbooks don't need apologists. If the Bible is the greatest and most perfect book ever written this should be abundantly clear in its text. >>
                    >
                    > A ridiculous argument. Atheism has its "apologists" as well (e.g., Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens); does this prove that there is something wrong with atheism? Why does atheism need apologists?
                    >
                    > In Christ's service,
                    > Rob Bowman
                    >

                    Rob, there are many things wrong with Atheism. It isn't an affirmation position, it is simply a denial of a belief in gods. I belong to other atheist yahoo groups where they don't like me either since I am not a Socialist like a lot of them tend to be.

                    However, atheists don't have a centralized text they adhere to, and if we had one we thought was perfect it should withstand scrutiny and shine as most evidently perfect. There would be no need for apologists of it.
                    Heinz
                  • Jimmy Sloan
                    Which only proves my point since mathematics still has mathematicians to clear up misconceptions. The obvious point here is that just because there is a need
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 6, 2009
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                      Which only proves my point since mathematics still has mathematicians to clear up misconceptions.  The obvious point here is that just because there is a need for someone to clear up misunderstandings, it does not follow that the actual thing that needs clarification is lacking in some way.  There are no factions among apologists as to whether God exists but that says very little about the truth of whether or not God exists.

                      ~ J. Sloan



                      To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                      From: christian_skeptic@...
                      Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 13:34:34 +0000
                      Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: 1001 Errors in the Christian Bible

                       
                      --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Jimmy Sloan <jimmysloan@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Even mathematics needs teachers to clear up misconceptions. ;)
                      >
                      >

                      Yes, but in the end there aren't differing factions over whether 1 plus 1 equals 2.
                      Heinz


                    • ssando2479@aol.com
                      _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologist_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologist) apologetics is a field of _Christian theology_
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 6, 2009
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                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologist

                         apologetics is a field of Christian theology that aims to present a rational basis for the Christian faith, defend the faith against objections, and expose the perceived flaws of other world views.[1] Christian apologetics have taken many forms over the centuries, starting with Paul of Tarsus, including writers such as Origen and Augustine of Hippo, and continuing currently with the modern Christian community, through the efforts of many authors in various Christian traditions such as C.S. Lewis. Apologists have based their defense of Christianity on historical evidence, philosophical arguments, scientific investigation, rhetorical persuasion and other disciplines.

                         
                        In a message dated 9/6/2009 6:50:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, christian_skeptic@... writes:
                         

                        --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, "faithhasitsreasons " <faithhasitsreasons @...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Heinz,
                        >
                        > You wrote:
                        >
                        > << Rob, your very presence as an "apologist" indicates there is something wrong with the Bible. For instance, Math textbooks don't need apologists. If the Bible is the greatest and most perfect book ever written this should be abundantly clear in its text. >>
                        >
                        > A ridiculous argument. Atheism has its "apologists" as well (e.g., Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens); does this prove that there is something wrong with atheism? Why does atheism need apologists?
                        >
                        > In Christ's service,
                        > Rob Bowman
                        >

                        Rob, there are many things wrong with Atheism. It isn't an affirmation position, it is simply a denial of a belief in gods. I belong to other atheist yahoo groups where they don't like me either since I am not a Socialist like a lot of them tend to be.

                        However, atheists don't have a centralized text they adhere to, and if we had one we thought was perfect it should withstand scrutiny and shine as most evidently perfect. There would be no need for apologists of it.
                        Heinz

                      • Paul Leonard
                        Yep and depending on context etc 2 + 2 could be 4 or any other number depending on the base number . Remember New math ? ... From: Jimmy Sloan
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 6, 2009
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                          Yep and depending on context etc 2 + 2 could be 4 or any other number depending on the "base number". Remember "New math"?

                          --- On Sat, 9/5/09, Jimmy Sloan <jimmysloan@...> wrote:

                          From: Jimmy Sloan <jimmysloan@...>
                          Subject: RE: [biblicalapologetics] Re: 1001 Errors in the Christian Bible
                          To: "biblicalapologetics" <biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Saturday, September 5, 2009, 10:27 PM

                           

                          Even mathematics needs teachers to clear up misconceptions. ;)


                          To: biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com
                          From: faithhasitsreasons@ yahoo.com
                          Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 04:59:39 +0000
                          Subject: [biblicalapologetic s] Re: 1001 Errors in the Christian Bible

                           
                          Heinz,

                          You wrote:

                          << Rob, your very presence as an "apologist" indicates there is something wrong with the Bible. For instance, Math textbooks don't need apologists. If the Bible is the greatest and most perfect book ever written this should be abundantly clear in its text. >>

                          A ridiculous argument. Atheism has its "apologists" as well (e.g., Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens); does this prove that there is something wrong with atheism? Why does atheism need apologists?

                          In Christ's service,
                          Rob Bowman


                        • christian_skeptic
                          ... Reply: and what are these misconceptions about math?
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 7, 2009
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                            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Sloan <jimmysloan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Which only proves my point since mathematics still has mathematicians to clear up misconceptions.

                            Reply: and what are these misconceptions about math?
                          • christian_skeptic
                            ... Reply: Ask anyone in the world what 2 + 2 is, and unless that person is an idiot, you will get the same answer. Only a Christian could obfuscate this
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 7, 2009
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                              --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Yep and depending on context etc 2 + 2 could be 4 or any other number depending on the "base number". Remember "New math"?

                              Reply: Ask anyone in the world what 2 + 2 is, and unless that person is an idiot, you will get the same answer. Only a Christian could obfuscate this point.
                            • Jimmy Sloan
                              ... Reply: and what are these misconceptions about math? That 2 + 2 = 7, that the least common denominator of 1/5, 1/6, and 1/15 is 15, that 1 is a prime
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 7, 2009
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                                > Which only proves my point since mathematics still has mathematicians to clear up misconceptions.

                                Reply: and what are these misconceptions about math?


                                That 2 + 2 = 7, that the least common denominator of 1/5, 1/6, and 1/15 is 15, that 1 is a prime number, etc. But the point here is that simply because there are apologists, it does not follow that there is something lacking with what the apologist is defending.  Thanks!
                                _

                              • Paul Leonard
                                I think you will find it was progressives , etc that obfuscated the issue by trying to force new math on the populace and replace traditional math.
                                Message 15 of 28 , Sep 7, 2009
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                                  I think you will find it was "progressives", etc that obfuscated the issue by trying to force "new math" on the populace and replace traditional math. Fortunately those poor stupid parents, most of whom believed in the Bible, spoke up in great numbers against the idiocy of teaching something that was only needed in higher math classes. Oh by the way I am a Christian and took higher math classes. Strangely enough today, while I am not a nuclear scientist, or a physicist I am involved in Chemistry and the old math is just fine for that.

                                  The reason anyone in the world will answer  2 + 2 = 4 is because they "progressive" (read secular and anti Christian) ideas were tossed out. Do a little research on the subject and then criticize those stupid progressives (read secular and anti Christian dummies) over it, not Christians.

                                  --- On Mon, 9/7/09, christian_skeptic <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:

                                   

                                  --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Yep and depending on context etc 2 + 2 could be 4 or any other number depending on the "base number". Remember "New math"?

                                  Reply: Ask anyone in the world what 2 + 2 is, and unless that person is an idiot, you will get the same answer. Only a Christian could obfuscate this point.

                                • tcmadd2@aol.com
                                  Dear anotherpaul I was a 6th grade teacher the year the New Math was introduced in my district. The problem was not that the parents were stupid or
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Sep 7, 2009
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                                    Dear "anotherpaul"
                                     
                                    I was a 6th grade teacher the year the "New" Math was introduced in my district.  The problem was not that the parents were "stupid" or necessarily Christian. (My school was located in a largely Jewish neighborhood. The liberal, secular Jewish parents were upset as well.)
                                     
                                    The problem with the new math was the method of implementation. Bowing to political pressure the school districts tried to reform the entire math curriculum in one big change.  Students who had never had to deal with concepts that sophisticated were now being taught mathematics in a completely new way. They could handle it, but the time devoted to set theory and operations in different bases meant that there was less time for traditional calculating skills. So, state test scores declined dramatically, which "proved" to the public that the new math "did not work".  The degree of indulgence and refusal to work hard in our public education systems were also contributory factors.
                                     
                                    The people who make the decisions in education are mostly school administrators, who are very political, and college professors. No one asked the classroom teachers about what really works with kids.
                                     
                                    Tom M.
                                     
                                     
                                    In a message dated 9/7/2009 1:11:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, anotherpaul2001@... writes:
                                     

                                    I think you will find it was "progressives" , etc that obfuscated the issue by trying to force "new math" on the populace and replace traditional math. Fortunately those poor stupid parents, most of whom believed in the Bible, spoke up in great numbers against the idiocy of teaching something that was only needed in higher math classes. Oh by the way I am a Christian and took higher math classes. Strangely enough today, while I am not a nuclear scientist, or a physicist I am involved in Chemistry and the old math is just fine for that.

                                    The reason anyone in the world will answer  2 + 2 = 4 is because they "progressive" (read secular and anti Christian) ideas were tossed out. Do a little research on the subject and then criticize those stupid progressives (read secular and anti Christian dummies) over it, not Christians.

                                    --- On Mon, 9/7/09, christian_skeptic <christian_skeptic@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                     

                                    --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Yep and depending on context etc 2 + 2 could be 4 or any other number depending on the "base number". Remember "New math"?

                                    Reply: Ask anyone in the world what 2 + 2 is, and unless that person is an idiot, you will get the same answer. Only a Christian could obfuscate this point.

                                  • Paul Leonard
                                    Hi, I do understand. I was being a bit facetious in response to the previous writer. It is so easy to categorize a group you do not like using minimal fact and
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 7, 2009
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                                      Hi,

                                      I do understand. I was being a bit facetious in response to the previous writer.

                                      It is so easy to categorize a group you do not like using minimal fact and a lot of innuendo.

                                      There was so many problems with the implementation of the New Math program at all levels. The basic idea was not bad, but the means of introducing it was simply miserable. I agree it wasn't simply Christian parents that objected. Virtually every parent, or at least those with any concern about their children's education, objected. These things should be left to the educators directly involved, not administrators, college professors and politically/ideologically motivated individuals/groups.

                                      I am sure you tried but saw the same problems that everyone else did with the methodology, not the idea, of introducing new math to students.

                                      --- On Mon, 9/7/09, tcmadd2@... <tcmadd2@...> wrote:

                                       

                                      Dear "anotherpaul"
                                       
                                      I was a 6th grade teacher the year the "New" Math was introduced in my district.  The problem was not that the parents were "stupid" or necessarily Christian. (My school was located in a largely Jewish neighborhood. The liberal, secular Jewish parents were upset as well.)
                                       
                                      The problem with the new math was the method of implementation. Bowing to political pressure the school districts tried to reform the entire math curriculum in one big change.  Students who had never had to deal with concepts that sophisticated were now being taught mathematics in a completely new way. They could handle it, but the time devoted to set theory and operations in different bases meant that there was less time for traditional calculating skills. So, state test scores declined dramatically, which "proved" to the public that the new math "did not work".  The degree of indulgence and refusal to work hard in our public education systems were also contributory factors.
                                       
                                      The people who make the decisions in education are mostly school administrators, who are very political, and college professors. No one asked the classroom teachers about what really works with kids.
                                       
                                      Tom M.
                                       
                                       
                                      In a message dated 9/7/2009 1:11:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, anotherpaul2001@ yahoo.com writes:
                                       

                                      I think you will find it was "progressives" , etc that obfuscated the issue by trying to force "new math" on the populace and replace traditional math. Fortunately those poor stupid parents, most of whom believed in the Bible, spoke up in great numbers against the idiocy of teaching something that was only needed in higher math classes. Oh by the way I am a Christian and took higher math classes. Strangely enough today, while I am not a nuclear scientist, or a physicist I am involved in Chemistry and the old math is just fine for that.

                                      The reason anyone in the world will answer  2 + 2 = 4 is because they "progressive" (read secular and anti Christian) ideas were tossed out. Do a little research on the subject and then criticize those stupid progressives (read secular and anti Christian dummies) over it, not Christians.

                                      --- On Mon, 9/7/09, christian_skeptic <christian_skeptic@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                       

                                      --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Yep and depending on context etc 2 + 2 could be 4 or any other number depending on the "base number". Remember "New math"?

                                      Reply: Ask anyone in the world what 2 + 2 is, and unless that person is an idiot, you will get the same answer. Only a Christian could obfuscate this point.

                                    • christian_skeptic
                                      Unbelievable! Again, only Christians can confuse issues like this. 2 apples and another 2 apples always made 4 apples, before and after the new math. 2 apples
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 8, 2009
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                                        Unbelievable! Again, only Christians can confuse issues like this. 2 apples and another 2 apples always made 4 apples, before and after the new math. 2 apples and another 2 apples always made 4 apples at any time in history - no one can argue this - but since you are, this shows the dangers of embracing Christianity. Something happens to an apologetic mind, you have to win the argument at all costs, even at the cost of rationality.
                                        Heinz

                                        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I think you will find it was "progressives", etc that obfuscated the issue by trying to force "new math" on the populace and replace traditional math. Fortunately those poor stupid parents, most of whom believed in the Bible, spoke up in great numbers against the idiocy of teaching something that was only needed in higher math classes. Oh by the way I am a Christian and took higher math classes. Strangely enough today, while I am not a nuclear scientist, or a physicist I am involved in Chemistry and the old math is just fine for that.
                                        >
                                        > The reason anyone in the world will answer� 2 + 2 = 4 is because they "progressive" (read secular and anti Christian) ideas were tossed out. Do a little research on the subject and then criticize those stupid progressives (read secular and anti Christian dummies) over it, not Christians.
                                        >
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