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Re: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Any input regarding a question from a skeptic about Pilate and the crucifiction?

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  • tcmadd2@aol.com
    Heinz, Actually, your entire argument is based on your speculation about what Pontius Pilate would have done. Pilate had a very good reason to do things like
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 27, 2009
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      Heinz,

      Actually, your entire argument is based on your speculation about what Pontius Pilate would have done. Pilate had a very good reason to do things like this.  The request came from a politically influential member of the Sanhedren. Keeping the peace in Jerusalem and Judea was very much in his interest as procurator. The "buck" ended with him regarding local matters.  The Romans were interested in order and taxes. A concession to a local dignitary that cost him nothing would be entirely reasonable.

      Tom Maddux


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Heinz Schmitz <christian_skeptic@...>
      To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 11:03 am
      Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Any input regarding a question from a skeptic about Pilate and the crucifiction?



      --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons @...> wrote:

      > While most crucifixion victims were not given honorable burials, Jesus was no common crucifixion victim (by anyone's reckoning). A member of the Sanhedrin had personally requested permission to bury the body. It would be implausible for Pilate to have refused such a request. Some skeptics dispute the likelihood that a member of the Sanhedrin would do this, but really--out of some seventy men, the odds that at least one or two would be sympathetic to Jesus were really pretty high.
      >
      > In Christ's service,
      > Rob Bowman
      >

      Reply: Or maybe it is JUST a story. Christians go thru great pains to come up with creative answers to the myriads of problematic Scriptures in the Bible when ultimately the Bible should be taken for what it is: Propaganda. Even the Bible admits this when it says "these things were written so that you may believe."
      Heinz

    • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
      Heinz, You wrote:
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 27, 2009
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        Heinz,

        You wrote:

        << Reply: Or maybe it is JUST a story. Christians go thru great pains to come up with creative answers to the myriads of problematic Scriptures in the Bible when ultimately the Bible should be taken for what it is: Propaganda. Even the Bible admits this when it says "these things were written so that you may believe." >>

        It is propaganda when someone takes "great pains" to make up pseudo-problems that aren't really "problematic" in the first place (e.g., Jesus must not have been buried because most crucifixion victims weren't).

        It is propaganda to take statements out of context in order to make your point seem plausible (e.g., quoting only part of John 20:30-31 and leaving out the part that contradicts your claim).

        It is not propaganda to point these things out--and no "great pains" are required.

        In Christ's service,
        Rob Bowman
      • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
        Heinz, You wrote:
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 27, 2009
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          Heinz,

          You wrote:

          << I don't bend NOT to believe that the Bhudda was born laughing...I don't bend NOT to believe that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse...I don't bend NOT to believe that the angel Moroni gave Joe Smith the Book of Mormon, and I don't bend NOT to believe in tales of savior gods and walking on water. >>

          If you simply ignored the Buddha, or Muhammad, or Joseph Smith, that would be one thing. If you expressed disbelief in them, that would not necessarily mean you were "bending" in order not to believe. But if you tried to argue that Gautama never existed, for example, that *would* be bending not to believe. It is that sort of absurd or far-fetched or superficial objection to Christianity that is attracting the sort of criticism you're getting.

          You wrote:

          << I think it was Thomas Paine that said (if I may paraphrase) "Which is more likely, that the laws of nature be overturned...or that someone was lying." >>

          Actually, that was David Hume (though Paine may have echoed the argument). Philosophers are still debating the merits of Hume's arguments against belief in miracles. I can direct you to some good discussions of the issue if you're interested.

          In Christ's service,
          Rob Bowman
        • Paul Leonard
          In fact a crucifixion victim in Palestine from about the same time period was discovered a few years ago IN a burial chamber. Can t remember the details, but a
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 27, 2009
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            In fact a crucifixion victim in Palestine from about the same time period was discovered a few years ago IN a burial chamber. Can't remember the details, but a little effort should track the story down.

            --- On Sat, 6/27/09, Robert M. Bowman, Jr. <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:

            Todd,

            You wrote:

            << By the same token: (as I was just reading about this) if Pilate was concerned that there was to be trouble with the burial of the body-he would not have released it in the first place-since for crucifixions this was definately going beyond the norm-nor would he have allowed to have it placed it in a tomb with funery rights and known to anybody but the soldiers. >>

            I've heard these sorts of statements before, and there's no good evidence to support them. The order of events appears to be the following: (1) Joseph of Arimathea requested permission to bury the body of Jesus, which Pilate granted; (2) some Jewish leaders told Pilate that Jesus had claimed he would rise from the dead and asked him to have the tomb guarded, to which Pilate agreed. Your criticism might have some plausibility only if the order of these two events were reversed.

            While most crucifixion victims were not given honorable burials, Jesus was no common crucifixion victim (by anyone's reckoning). A member of the Sanhedrin had personally requested permission to bury the body. It would be implausible for Pilate to have refused such a request. Some skeptics dispute the likelihood that a member of the Sanhedrin would do this, but really--out of some seventy men, the odds that at least one or two would be sympathetic to Jesus were really pretty high.

            In Christ's service,
            Rob Bowman

          • Paul Leonard
            Hi Rob, If you really consider his arguments, he is really trying to argue that he is right, more than that we are wrong. In effect trying to convince himself
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 27, 2009
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              Hi Rob,

              If you really consider his arguments, he is really trying to argue that he is right, more than that we are wrong. In effect trying to convince himself he made a good decision in abandoning any faith.

              Except faith in other .................................. fallible men.

              --- On Sat, 6/27/09, Robert M. Bowman, Jr. <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:

              Heinz,

              You wrote:

              << Reply: Or maybe it is JUST a story. Christians go thru great pains to come up with creative answers to the myriads of problematic Scriptures in the Bible when ultimately the Bible should be taken for what it is: Propaganda. Even the Bible admits this when it says "these things were written so that you may believe." >>

              It is propaganda when someone takes "great pains" to make up pseudo-problems that aren't really "problematic" in the first place (e.g., Jesus must not have been buried because most crucifixion victims weren't).

              It is propaganda to take statements out of context in order to make your point seem plausible (e.g., quoting only part of John 20:30-31 and leaving out the part that contradicts your claim).

              It is not propaganda to point these things out--and no "great pains" are required.

              In Christ's service,
              Rob Bowman

            • Heinz Schmitz
              It is apparent that you know neither the meaning of the word propaganda nor are you aware of the immense problems inside the bible...hence the need to
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 27, 2009
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                It is apparent that you know neither the meaning of the word "propaganda" nor are you aware of the immense problems inside the bible...hence the need to mountains of work on apologetics.
                Heinz

                --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
                >
                > Heinz,
                >
                > You wrote:
                >
                > << Reply: Or maybe it is JUST a story. Christians go thru great pains to come up with creative answers to the myriads of problematic Scriptures in the Bible when ultimately the Bible should be taken for what it is: Propaganda. Even the Bible admits this when it says "these things were written so that you may believe." >>
                >
                > It is propaganda when someone takes "great pains" to make up pseudo-problems that aren't really "problematic" in the first place (e.g., Jesus must not have been buried because most crucifixion victims weren't).
                >
                > It is propaganda to take statements out of context in order to make your point seem plausible (e.g., quoting only part of John 20:30-31 and leaving out the part that contradicts your claim).
                >
                > It is not propaganda to point these things out--and no "great pains" are required.
                >
                > In Christ's service,
                > Rob Bowman
                >
              • Heinz Schmitz
                ... I contend that a Jesus (or many Christs) existed, much the same as Mohammed, Smith and Santa Claus existed. But I draw the line at the fanciful stories
                Message 7 of 26 , Jun 27, 2009
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                  --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Heinz,
                  >
                  > You wrote:
                  >
                  > << I don't bend NOT to believe that the Bhudda was born laughing...I don't bend NOT to believe that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse...I don't bend NOT to believe that the angel Moroni gave Joe Smith the Book of Mormon, and I don't bend NOT to believe in tales of savior gods and walking on water. >>
                  >
                  > If you simply ignored the Buddha, or Muhammad, or Joseph Smith, that would be one thing. If you expressed disbelief in them, that would not necessarily mean you were "bending" in order not to believe. But if you tried to argue that Gautama never existed, for example, that *would* be bending not to believe. It is that sort of absurd or far-fetched or superficial objection to Christianity that is attracting the sort of criticism you're getting.
                  >

                  I contend that a Jesus (or many Christs) existed, much the same as Mohammed, Smith and Santa Claus existed. But I draw the line at the fanciful stories surrounding them, and so should everyone else. You dismiss the fables around Smith, Santa etc, I am just going one step further and dismissing the stories around your myth as well.
                • Heinz Schmitz
                  ... Reply: If you are so weak and timid that you must have some sort of belief system, then please, believe in men...they will do much more for you than any
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jun 27, 2009
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                    --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Rob,
                    >
                    > If you really consider his arguments, he is really trying to argue that he is right, more than that we are wrong. In effect trying to convince himself he made a good decision in abandoning any faith.
                    >
                    > Except faith in other .................................. fallible men.

                    Reply: If you are so weak and timid that you must have some sort of belief system, then please, believe in men...they will do much more for you than any imaginary friends that religions can invent. When you have a family member or friend involved in a fatal motor accident, it was your god that watched them die, it was man who tried to save them.
                    Heinz
                  • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
                    Heinz, Your many responses on this thread have not even tried to address the historical issues concerning the original question about Pilate and Jesus burial.
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jun 27, 2009
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                      Heinz,

                      Your many responses on this thread have not even tried to address the historical issues concerning the original question about Pilate and Jesus' burial. That's all anyone needs to know to see why your responses are getting no respect.

                      In Christ's service,
                      Rob Bowman



                      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz" <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Heinz,
                      > >
                      > > You wrote:
                      > >
                      > > << I don't bend NOT to believe that the Bhudda was born laughing...I don't bend NOT to believe that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse...I don't bend NOT to believe that the angel Moroni gave Joe Smith the Book of Mormon, and I don't bend NOT to believe in tales of savior gods and walking on water. >>
                      > >
                      > > If you simply ignored the Buddha, or Muhammad, or Joseph Smith, that would be one thing. If you expressed disbelief in them, that would not necessarily mean you were "bending" in order not to believe. But if you tried to argue that Gautama never existed, for example, that *would* be bending not to believe. It is that sort of absurd or far-fetched or superficial objection to Christianity that is attracting the sort of criticism you're getting.
                      > >
                      >
                      > I contend that a Jesus (or many Christs) existed, much the same as Mohammed, Smith and Santa Claus existed. But I draw the line at the fanciful stories surrounding them, and so should everyone else. You dismiss the fables around Smith, Santa etc, I am just going one step further and dismissing the stories around your myth as well.
                      >
                    • Heinz Schmitz
                      ... Reply: I have not tried to address the historical issues concerning the original question about Pilate and Jesus burial because I do not feel it is
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 28, 2009
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                        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Heinz,
                        >
                        > Your many responses on this thread have not even tried to address the historical issues concerning the original question about Pilate and Jesus' burial. That's all anyone needs to know to see why your responses are getting no respect.
                        >
                        > In Christ's service,
                        > Rob Bowman
                        >

                        Reply: I have not "tried to address the historical issues concerning the original question about Pilate and Jesus' burial" because I do not feel it is historical to begin with. We are talking about one the most important and magical figures ever, yet the historians of his time seem almost completely unaware of him.
                        Heinz
                      • Heinz Schmitz
                        ... Reply: I have no argument - to me it likely never happened and to keep these unlikely stories alive is a disservice to many who need to have their minds
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jun 28, 2009
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                          --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, tcmadd2@... wrote:
                          >
                          > Heinz,
                          >
                          > Actually, your entire argument is based on your speculation about what Pontius Pilate would have done. Pilate had a very good reason to do things like this.? The request came from a politically influential member of the Sanhedren. Keeping the peace in Jerusalem and Judea was very much in his interest as procurator. The "buck" ended with him regarding local matters.? The Romans were interested in order and taxes. A concession to a local dignitary that cost him nothing would be entirely reasonable.
                          >
                          > Tom Maddux

                          Reply: I have no argument - to me it likely never happened and to keep these unlikely stories alive is a disservice to many who need to have their minds emancipated from thoughts of devils and spirits knocking them to the ground. Harry's message yesterday about this should send chills down the spines of everyone here, and you are all complicit in the damage done to this man.
                          Heinz
                        • madmc492002
                          Heinz: I am not a public figure, therefore your disparaging comments about me could be fodder for my legal counsel, if I were so inclined. Your judgment of me
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 28, 2009
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                            Heinz:

                            I am not a public figure, therefore your disparaging comments about me could be fodder for my legal counsel, if I were so inclined. Your judgment of me has been made on a few comments in cyberspace, but you seem to think you know everything. You don't: I have a BA in Journalism with a minor in Anthopology. I spent 20 years in the newsgathering business. My wife and I have raised two sons, and we are considered stable pillars in our community. I earn a substantial salary (six figures the last several years), and regularly negotiate contracts with executives and business owners.

                            Because I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, the love of the Father, and the death and resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ does not make me damaged goods. It simply makes me a Christian.

                            You choose to debate Pilate. Actually, you would be surprised to know I think he's a tragic figure, seed for a Shakespearean tragedy. I agree with Tom: His choices were political. But even he acknowledged, according to Scripture, there was something wrong in what was being done to Jesus. Why else would he offer the choice of two men? Why else would he want to wash his hands of the whole affair? If you don't think it happened, then why debate it?

                            I choose not to engage further with you because you relish ad hominen attacks on the characters of those who challenge you. If that's the only way you can debate, then you've shown who you are. You must be losing the argument again today, because I who sat silent for 24 hours am now the latest in your character assassination.

                            Have a good day.

                            Harry


                            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz" <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, tcmadd2@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Heinz,
                            > >
                            > > Actually, your entire argument is based on your speculation about what Pontius Pilate would have done. Pilate had a very good reason to do things like this.? The request came from a politically influential member of the Sanhedren. Keeping the peace in Jerusalem and Judea was very much in his interest as procurator. The "buck" ended with him regarding local matters.? The Romans were interested in order and taxes. A concession to a local dignitary that cost him nothing would be entirely reasonable.
                            > >
                            > > Tom Maddux
                            >
                            > Reply: I have no argument - to me it likely never happened and to keep these unlikely stories alive is a disservice to many who need to have their minds emancipated from thoughts of devils and spirits knocking them to the ground. Harry's message yesterday about this should send chills down the spines of everyone here, and you are all complicit in the damage done to this man.
                            > Heinz
                            >
                          • Heinz Schmitz
                            ... Reply: It s interesting that you start off with a threat, and none of the rest makes you immune to psychological damage or delusions. If anyone, ANYONE, I
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jun 28, 2009
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                              --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "madmc492002" <harrymc@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Heinz:
                              >
                              > I am not a public figure, therefore your disparaging comments about me could be fodder for my legal counsel, if I were so inclined. Your judgment of me has been made on a few comments in cyberspace, but you seem to think you know everything. You don't: I have a BA in Journalism with a minor in Anthopology. I spent 20 years in the newsgathering business. My wife and I have raised two sons, and we are considered stable pillars in our community. I earn a substantial salary (six figures the last several years), and regularly negotiate contracts with executives and business owners.

                              Reply: It's interesting that you start off with a threat, and none of the rest makes you immune to psychological damage or delusions. If anyone, ANYONE, I don't care about their social status, told they were knocked down by the holy spirit, I would tell them the same thing: Please, seek professional help!
                              I once knew a lady who was raped but insisted this was done by a spirit. This idiocy made it possible for a rapist to go free. This is the danger of sanctioning and glorifying superstitious beliefs.
                            • harrymc@att.blackberry.net
                              I m not threatening. Read the sentence again. As for the rest of your comments why bother responding? You re convinced you re saner and smarter. I ll leave
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jun 28, 2009
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                                I'm not threatening. Read the sentence again.

                                As for the rest of your comments why bother responding? You're convinced you're saner and smarter. I'll leave you with your opinion.

                                Harry

                                Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T


                                From: "Heinz Schmitz"
                                Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:51:23 -0000
                                To: <biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Any input regarding a question from a skeptic about Pilate and the crucifiction?

                                --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, "madmc492002" <harrymc@... > wrote:
                                >
                                > Heinz:
                                >
                                > I am not a public figure, therefore your disparaging comments about me could be fodder for my legal counsel, if I were so inclined. Your judgment of me has been made on a few comments in cyberspace, but you seem to think you know everything. You don't: I have a BA in Journalism with a minor in Anthopology. I spent 20 years in the newsgathering business. My wife and I have raised two sons, and we are considered stable pillars in our community. I earn a substantial salary (six figures the last several years), and regularly negotiate contracts with executives and business owners.

                                Reply: It's interesting that you start off with a threat, and none of the rest makes you immune to psychological damage or delusions. If anyone, ANYONE, I don't care about their social status, told they were knocked down by the holy spirit, I would tell them the same thing: Please, seek professional help!
                                I once knew a lady who was raped but insisted this was done by a spirit. This idiocy made it possible for a rapist to go free. This is the danger of sanctioning and glorifying superstitious beliefs.

                              • Heinz Schmitz
                                ... Some of the responses here are very interesting, and I have to wonder how much thought goes into them. For instance: You re convinced you re saner and
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jun 29, 2009
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                                  --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, harrymc@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I'm not threatening. Read the sentence again.
                                  >
                                  > As for the rest of your comments why bother responding? You're convinced you're saner and smarter. I'll leave you with your opinion.
                                  >
                                  > Harry
                                  > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                                  >

                                  Some of the responses here are very interesting, and I have to wonder how much thought goes into them. For instance: "You're convinced you're saner and smarter." This is true, I suspect I do feel this way, but how does this make me different than anyone else here? No one here is arguing a position that they feel is insane or dumb. Christians as a rule feel they are smarter and saner than everyone else. Why am I being condemned for thinking as you do? Why am I not allowed the same standard?
                                  If you think this an arrogant stance for me to take, then you must concede your own arrogance for feeling as you yourself do.

                                  Paul Leonard writes that I am "just trying to convince myself." But the more I think this, the more I sense that this is what Christians do. As a believer I was taught that neglecting association with other believers was a dangerous evil. The Bible implores us never to "forsake the gathering of ourselves together" and Christians know that lack of fellowship leads to your faith ebbing away. Hence, the main purpose of fellowship is to CONVINCE EACH OTHER that you are right.

                                  How is that Christians seem to deplore in others the actions and feelings they engage in themselves? When they see their own actions and thinking mirrored in others it repulses them, they react in disgust at their own methods.

                                  How is anyone to take you seriously?

                                  Heinz
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