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Re: BIBLE MYTHS DEBUNKED/anti-supernatural bias

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  • Heinz Schmitz
    ... competing ... here ... signed ... are ... yours ... Koran only has one prophecy. It was a self fulfilling prophecy of his return to Mecca or Medina. The
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
      <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
      >
      > Don't we all have a anti-supernatural bias when it comes to
      competing
      > faith systems? No one here believes Buddha was born laughing. No one
      > here believes Muhammad rode to heaven on a winged horse and no one
      here
      > believes the angel Moroni gave Joe Smith golden plates despite
      signed
      > affidavits otherwise. To Christians all other supernatural claims
      are
      > ridiculous, yet you find it incredulous that some don't believe
      yours
      > as well.
      > Heinz
      >

      >I am not familiar with Mohammed's horse. What I do know that the
      Koran only has one prophecy. It was a self fulfilling prophecy of his
      return to Mecca or Medina. The rest of it is quite unimpressive
      compared to the Bible.

      Reply: Bible prophecies are just as weak. I remember back when i was
      running my jehovahbible and someone mentioned the prophecies of
      Egypt, how the Bible says that Egypt would be desolate, and it
      evidently never has been. I remember talking to Harold Holmyard about
      this back then and he offered that maybe all the inhabitants of egypt
      left for two weeks and we simply don't know about it. C'mon!

      >There is no evidence to support Joe Smiths historical claims. As a
      matter of fact, he has beep proven to be a habitual lier.

      Reply: There is no evidence to support the bible's claims either.
    • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
      Heinz, You wrote:
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
        Heinz,

        You wrote:

        << I remember back when i was running my jehovahbible and someone
        mentioned the prophecies of Egypt, how the Bible says that Egypt would
        be desolate, and it evidently never has been. I remember talking to
        Harold Holmyard about this back then and he offered that maybe all the
        inhabitants of egypt left for two weeks and we simply don't know about
        it. C'mon! >>

        C'mon indeed! Was that the best response to the question you could find?

        Let's get the specific biblical reference or references on the table
        you have in mind here, and I'll try to comment on the matter.

        In Christ's service,
        Rob Bowman
        Executive Director
        Institute for Religious Research
        Online: http://www.irr.org/
      • Heinz Schmitz
        ... would ... the ... about ... find? ... table ... Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
          --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr."
          <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
          >
          > Heinz,
          >
          > You wrote:
          >
          > << I remember back when i was running my jehovahbible and someone
          > mentioned the prophecies of Egypt, how the Bible says that Egypt
          would
          > be desolate, and it evidently never has been. I remember talking to
          > Harold Holmyard about this back then and he offered that maybe all
          the
          > inhabitants of egypt left for two weeks and we simply don't know
          about
          > it. C'mon! >>
          >
          > C'mon indeed! Was that the best response to the question you could
          find?
          >
          > Let's get the specific biblical reference or references on the
          table
          > you have in mind here, and I'll try to comment on the matter.
          >
          > In Christ's service,
          > Rob Bowman

          "Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I
          will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the
          tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall
          pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither
          shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt
          desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her
          cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty
          years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will
          disperse them through the countries. Yet thus saith the Lord God; At
          the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the people
          whither they were scattered. And I will bring again the captivity of
          Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into
          the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base kingdom.
          It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself
          any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall
          no more rule over the nations."
          —Ezekiel 29:9-15
        • Heinz Schmitz
          With the previous post we can see now that Egypt has never been desolate, much less for forty years at a time, and the Egyptian people were neither scattered
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
            With the previous post we can see now that Egypt has never been
            desolate, much less for forty years at a time, and the Egyptian people
            were neither scattered and later regathered. Christians will seize ipon
            the coda at the end about Egypt losing its superpower status, but
            history shows that most empires and superpowers decline in status given
            sufficient time, so this is hardly proof of divine foreknowledge.
            Heinz
          • Todd E. Tornow
            ... The Bible and Archaeology It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference. The renowned Jewish
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
              --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
              <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
              >
              > Reply: There is no evidence to support the bible's claims either.
              >

              The Bible and Archaeology

              "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has
              ever controverted a biblical reference."

              The renowned Jewish archaeologist continued in commenting "the almost
              incredibly accurate historical memory of the Bible, and particularly
              so when it is fortified by archaeological fact"

              Nelson Glueck, Rivers in the Desert: History of Negev. New York
              Farrar, Straus, and Cadahy, 1959, page 31

              *

              "On the whole, however, archaeological work has unquestionably
              strengthened confidence in the reliability of the scriptural record."

              Burrows, Millar. What Means These Stones, New York: Meridian Books,
              1957, page 1

              *

              "Old Testament archaeology has rediscovered whole nations, resurrected
              important peoples, and in a most astonishing manner filled in
              historical gap, adding immeasurably to the knowledge of biblical
              backgrounds."

              Unger, Merrill F. Archaeology and the Old Testament. Grand Rapids:
              Zondervan Publishing Co., 1954, page 1

              Merril Unger, A.B., PhD, ThM, ThD chairman of the Semetics and Old
              Testament Department at Dallas Theological Seminary.

              *

              "Archaeological and inscriptional data have established the
              historicity of innumerable passages and statements of the Old Testament."

              Albright, W.F. "Archaeology Confronts Biblical Criticism" The American
              Scholar, n.p., April 1938, page 181

              William Albright, PhD, Litt.D was an archaeologist, scholar, and
              instructor at Johns Hopins University.

              *

              "We pointed out that numerous passages of the Bible which long puzzled
              the commentators have readily yielded up their meaning when new light
              from archaeological discoveries has been focused on them. In other
              words, archaeology illuminates the text of the Scriptures and so makes
              valuable contributions to the fields of Biblical interpretation and
              exegesis. In addition to illuminating the Bible, archaeology has
              confirmed countless passages which have been rejected by critics as
              unhistorical or contradictory to known facts."

              Free, Joseph P. Archaeology and Bible History, Wheaton: Scripture
              Press, 1969, page 1

              Joseph Free, PhD, is professor of archaeology and history, Bemidji
              State College.

              *

              During the excavations of Jericho (1930-1936) Garstang found something
              so startling that a statement of what they found was prepared and
              signed by himself and tow other members of the team.

              In reference to these findings Garstang says: "As to the main fact,
              then, there remains no doubt: the walls fell outwards so completely
              that the attackers would be able to clamor up and over their ruins
              into the city."

              Why so unusual? Because walls of cities do not fall outwards, they
              fall inwards.

              And yet in Joshua 6:20 we hear " . . . the wall fell down flat, so
              that the people went up into the city every man straight ahead, and
              they took the city."

              Garstang, John Joshua Judges. London: Constable, 1931. Page 146
            • Todd E. Tornow
              ... Did not the Babylonians do this after they torched Judah? Judah was on or near a major trade route. Egypt was a major trade partner. When the Babylonians
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
                --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
                >

                > "Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I
                > will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the
                > tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall
                > pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither
                > shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt
                > desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her
                > cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty
                > years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will
                > disperse them through the countries. Yet thus saith the Lord God; At
                > the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the people
                > whither they were scattered. And I will bring again the captivity of
                > Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into
                > the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base kingdom.
                > It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself
                > any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall
                > no more rule over the nations."
                > —Ezekiel 29:9-15
                >

                Did not the Babylonians do this after they torched Judah?

                Judah was on or near a major trade route.

                Egypt was a major trade partner.

                When the Babylonians were done, they were both no more.
              • Heinz Schmitz
                ... I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same for most ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims true. For
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 2, 2008
                  --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                  <tetornow@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                  > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Reply: There is no evidence to support the bible's claims either.
                  > >
                  >
                  > The Bible and Archaeology
                  >
                  > "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has
                  > ever controverted a biblical reference."

                  I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same for most
                  ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims true.
                  For instance, Josephus has become a very important writer to us, but
                  this does not mean I need to acccept hims claims of chariots riding in
                  the clouds. I see no reason why an ancient writer would need to make up
                  names of places when there are so many existing places at his disposal.
                  My problem is with the Bible's prophetic and supernatural claims.
                  Heinz
                • Heinz Schmitz
                  ... I ... shall ... Egypt ... forty ... will ... At ... people ... of ... into ... kingdom. ... itself ... shall ... The Babylonians did not destroy Egypt, the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 2, 2008
                    --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                    <tetornow@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > > "Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and
                    I
                    > > will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the
                    > > tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man
                    shall
                    > > pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither
                    > > shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of
                    Egypt
                    > > desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her
                    > > cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate
                    forty
                    > > years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and
                    will
                    > > disperse them through the countries. Yet thus saith the Lord God;
                    At
                    > > the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the
                    people
                    > > whither they were scattered. And I will bring again the captivity
                    of
                    > > Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros,
                    into
                    > > the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base
                    kingdom.
                    > > It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt
                    itself
                    > > any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they
                    shall
                    > > no more rule over the nations."
                    > > —Ezekiel 29:9-15
                    > >
                    >
                    > Did not the Babylonians do this after they torched Judah?
                    >
                    > Judah was on or near a major trade route.
                    >
                    > Egypt was a major trade partner.
                    >
                    > When the Babylonians were done, they were both no more.
                    >

                    The Babylonians did not destroy Egypt, the Nile never dried up, there
                    was never a time when Egypt was desolate for forty years, and
                    therefore no return of the Egyptians either.
                    Heinz
                  • wglmp
                    ... either. ... has ... most ... true. ... but ... in ... Josephus wrote of chariot riding in the clouds? Where was this? Matt
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 3, 2008
                      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                      <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                      > <tetornow@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                      > > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Reply: There is no evidence to support the bible's claims
                      either.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > The Bible and Archaeology
                      > >
                      > > "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery
                      has
                      > > ever controverted a biblical reference."
                      >
                      > I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same for
                      most
                      > ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims
                      true.
                      > For instance, Josephus has become a very important writer to us,
                      but
                      > this does not mean I need to acccept hims claims of chariots riding
                      in
                      > the clouds.

                      Josephus wrote of chariot riding in the clouds? Where was this?

                      Matt
                    • Heinz Schmitz
                      ... discovery ... for ... riding ... Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and- twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 3, 2008
                        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "wglmp" <mtillman@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                        > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                        > > <tetornow@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                        > > > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Reply: There is no evidence to support the bible's claims
                        > either.
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > The Bible and Archaeology
                        > > >
                        > > > "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological
                        discovery
                        > has
                        > > > ever controverted a biblical reference."
                        > >
                        > > I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same
                        for
                        > most
                        > > ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims
                        > true.
                        > > For instance, Josephus has become a very important writer to us,
                        > but
                        > > this does not mean I need to acccept hims claims of chariots
                        riding
                        > in
                        > > the clouds.
                        >
                        > Josephus wrote of chariot riding in the clouds? Where was this?
                        >
                        > Matt

                        "Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-
                        twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious
                        and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would
                        seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and
                        were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as
                        to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops
                        of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds,
                        and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call
                        Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court
                        of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred
                        ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a
                        quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound
                        as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars,
                        VI-V-3).
                      • Todd E. Tornow
                        ... and- ... would ... troops ... clouds, ... Wars, ... Can we not say that we do not understand what he is writing about because we were not there and there
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 9, 2008
                          --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                          <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > "Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one-
                          and-
                          > twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious
                          > and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it
                          would
                          > seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and
                          > were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as
                          > to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and
                          troops
                          > of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the
                          clouds,
                          > and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call
                          > Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court
                          > of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred
                          > ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a
                          > quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound
                          > as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish
                          Wars,
                          > VI-V-3).
                          >

                          Can we not say that we do not understand what he is writing about
                          because we were not there and there are no other witnesses who wrote
                          about the event?
                        • Todd E. Tornow
                          ... most ... true. ... but ... in ... make up ... disposal. ... You reject a historical document because of your subjective belief that the supernatural does
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 9, 2008
                            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                            <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same for
                            most
                            > ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims
                            true.
                            > For instance, Josephus has become a very important writer to us,
                            but
                            > this does not mean I need to acccept hims claims of chariots riding
                            in
                            > the clouds. I see no reason why an ancient writer would need to
                            make up
                            > names of places when there are so many existing places at his
                            disposal.
                            > My problem is with the Bible's prophetic and supernatural claims.
                            > Heinz
                            >

                            You reject a historical document because of your subjective belief
                            that the supernatural does not occur.

                            Can't you just take the writer for their word and honesly say that
                            you do not know how this happened.

                            Yes, many miracles back then have been 'duplicated' via modern
                            medicine.
                          • Heinz Schmitz
                            ... prodigious ... as ... [court ... sound ... wrote ... I understand what he is saying. Don t you? He was writing at a time in history when people made
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 13, 2008
                              --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                              <tetornow@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                              > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > "Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one-
                              > and-
                              > > twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain
                              prodigious
                              > > and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it
                              > would
                              > > seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and
                              > > were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature
                              as
                              > > to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and
                              > troops
                              > > of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the
                              > clouds,
                              > > and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call
                              > > Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner
                              [court
                              > > of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred
                              > > ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a
                              > > quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a
                              sound
                              > > as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish
                              > Wars,
                              > > VI-V-3).
                              > >
                              >
                              > Can we not say that we do not understand what he is writing about
                              > because we were not there and there are no other witnesses who
                              wrote
                              > about the event?

                              I understand what he is saying. Don't you? He was writing at a time
                              in history when people made fantastic and supernatural claims, and it
                              is not up to me, 2000 years later, to accept these preposterous
                              claims.
                              Heinz
                            • Heinz Schmitz
                              ... for ... riding ... I think it was Thomas Paine that said, and I paraphrase, Which is more likely: that the laws of nature could be overturned, or that
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 13, 2008
                                --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                                <tetornow@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                                > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same
                                for
                                > most
                                > > ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims
                                > true.
                                > > For instance, Josephus has become a very important writer to us,
                                > but
                                > > this does not mean I need to acccept hims claims of chariots
                                riding
                                > in
                                > > the clouds. I see no reason why an ancient writer would need to
                                > make up
                                > > names of places when there are so many existing places at his
                                > disposal.
                                > > My problem is with the Bible's prophetic and supernatural claims.
                                > > Heinz
                                > >
                                >
                                > You reject a historical document because of your subjective belief
                                > that the supernatural does not occur.
                                >
                                > Can't you just take the writer for their word and honesly say that
                                > you do not know how this happened.

                                I think it was Thomas Paine that said, and I paraphrase, "Which is
                                more likely: that the laws of nature could be overturned, or that
                                someone was lying."
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