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Re: BIBLE MYTHS DEBUNKED/anti-supernatural bias

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  • Todd E. Tornow
    ... If my memory serves me well, I recall that the writings concerning the Buddha date to about 200 years after the Buddha. Therefore the writer is incapable
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 30, 2008
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      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
      <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
      >
      > Don't we all have a anti-supernatural bias when it comes to competing
      > faith systems? No one here believes Buddha was born laughing. No one
      > here believes Muhammad rode to heaven on a winged horse and no one here
      > believes the angel Moroni gave Joe Smith golden plates despite signed
      > affidavits otherwise. To Christians all other supernatural claims are
      > ridiculous, yet you find it incredulous that some don't believe yours
      > as well.
      > Heinz
      >

      If my memory serves me well, I recall that the writings concerning the
      Buddha date to about 200 years after the Buddha. Therefore the writer
      is incapable of knowing if the Buddha was born laughing or not.

      I am not familiar with Mohammed's horse. What I do know that the
      Koran only has one prophecy. It was a self fulfilling prophecy of his
      return to Mecca or Medina. The rest of it is quite unimpressive
      compared to the Bible.

      There is no evidence to support Joe Smiths historical claims. As a
      matter of fact, he has beep proven to be a habitual lier.

      The bible IS proven to be historically reliable and trustworthy with
      it's claims.
    • Heinz Schmitz
      ... competing ... here ... signed ... are ... yours ... Koran only has one prophecy. It was a self fulfilling prophecy of his return to Mecca or Medina. The
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
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        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
        <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
        >
        > Don't we all have a anti-supernatural bias when it comes to
        competing
        > faith systems? No one here believes Buddha was born laughing. No one
        > here believes Muhammad rode to heaven on a winged horse and no one
        here
        > believes the angel Moroni gave Joe Smith golden plates despite
        signed
        > affidavits otherwise. To Christians all other supernatural claims
        are
        > ridiculous, yet you find it incredulous that some don't believe
        yours
        > as well.
        > Heinz
        >

        >I am not familiar with Mohammed's horse. What I do know that the
        Koran only has one prophecy. It was a self fulfilling prophecy of his
        return to Mecca or Medina. The rest of it is quite unimpressive
        compared to the Bible.

        Reply: Bible prophecies are just as weak. I remember back when i was
        running my jehovahbible and someone mentioned the prophecies of
        Egypt, how the Bible says that Egypt would be desolate, and it
        evidently never has been. I remember talking to Harold Holmyard about
        this back then and he offered that maybe all the inhabitants of egypt
        left for two weeks and we simply don't know about it. C'mon!

        >There is no evidence to support Joe Smiths historical claims. As a
        matter of fact, he has beep proven to be a habitual lier.

        Reply: There is no evidence to support the bible's claims either.
      • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
        Heinz, You wrote:
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
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          Heinz,

          You wrote:

          << I remember back when i was running my jehovahbible and someone
          mentioned the prophecies of Egypt, how the Bible says that Egypt would
          be desolate, and it evidently never has been. I remember talking to
          Harold Holmyard about this back then and he offered that maybe all the
          inhabitants of egypt left for two weeks and we simply don't know about
          it. C'mon! >>

          C'mon indeed! Was that the best response to the question you could find?

          Let's get the specific biblical reference or references on the table
          you have in mind here, and I'll try to comment on the matter.

          In Christ's service,
          Rob Bowman
          Executive Director
          Institute for Religious Research
          Online: http://www.irr.org/
        • Heinz Schmitz
          ... would ... the ... about ... find? ... table ... Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
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            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr."
            <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
            >
            > Heinz,
            >
            > You wrote:
            >
            > << I remember back when i was running my jehovahbible and someone
            > mentioned the prophecies of Egypt, how the Bible says that Egypt
            would
            > be desolate, and it evidently never has been. I remember talking to
            > Harold Holmyard about this back then and he offered that maybe all
            the
            > inhabitants of egypt left for two weeks and we simply don't know
            about
            > it. C'mon! >>
            >
            > C'mon indeed! Was that the best response to the question you could
            find?
            >
            > Let's get the specific biblical reference or references on the
            table
            > you have in mind here, and I'll try to comment on the matter.
            >
            > In Christ's service,
            > Rob Bowman

            "Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I
            will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the
            tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall
            pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither
            shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt
            desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her
            cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty
            years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will
            disperse them through the countries. Yet thus saith the Lord God; At
            the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the people
            whither they were scattered. And I will bring again the captivity of
            Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into
            the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base kingdom.
            It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself
            any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall
            no more rule over the nations."
            —Ezekiel 29:9-15
          • Heinz Schmitz
            With the previous post we can see now that Egypt has never been desolate, much less for forty years at a time, and the Egyptian people were neither scattered
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
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              With the previous post we can see now that Egypt has never been
              desolate, much less for forty years at a time, and the Egyptian people
              were neither scattered and later regathered. Christians will seize ipon
              the coda at the end about Egypt losing its superpower status, but
              history shows that most empires and superpowers decline in status given
              sufficient time, so this is hardly proof of divine foreknowledge.
              Heinz
            • Todd E. Tornow
              ... The Bible and Archaeology It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference. The renowned Jewish
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
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                --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
                >
                > Reply: There is no evidence to support the bible's claims either.
                >

                The Bible and Archaeology

                "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has
                ever controverted a biblical reference."

                The renowned Jewish archaeologist continued in commenting "the almost
                incredibly accurate historical memory of the Bible, and particularly
                so when it is fortified by archaeological fact"

                Nelson Glueck, Rivers in the Desert: History of Negev. New York
                Farrar, Straus, and Cadahy, 1959, page 31

                *

                "On the whole, however, archaeological work has unquestionably
                strengthened confidence in the reliability of the scriptural record."

                Burrows, Millar. What Means These Stones, New York: Meridian Books,
                1957, page 1

                *

                "Old Testament archaeology has rediscovered whole nations, resurrected
                important peoples, and in a most astonishing manner filled in
                historical gap, adding immeasurably to the knowledge of biblical
                backgrounds."

                Unger, Merrill F. Archaeology and the Old Testament. Grand Rapids:
                Zondervan Publishing Co., 1954, page 1

                Merril Unger, A.B., PhD, ThM, ThD chairman of the Semetics and Old
                Testament Department at Dallas Theological Seminary.

                *

                "Archaeological and inscriptional data have established the
                historicity of innumerable passages and statements of the Old Testament."

                Albright, W.F. "Archaeology Confronts Biblical Criticism" The American
                Scholar, n.p., April 1938, page 181

                William Albright, PhD, Litt.D was an archaeologist, scholar, and
                instructor at Johns Hopins University.

                *

                "We pointed out that numerous passages of the Bible which long puzzled
                the commentators have readily yielded up their meaning when new light
                from archaeological discoveries has been focused on them. In other
                words, archaeology illuminates the text of the Scriptures and so makes
                valuable contributions to the fields of Biblical interpretation and
                exegesis. In addition to illuminating the Bible, archaeology has
                confirmed countless passages which have been rejected by critics as
                unhistorical or contradictory to known facts."

                Free, Joseph P. Archaeology and Bible History, Wheaton: Scripture
                Press, 1969, page 1

                Joseph Free, PhD, is professor of archaeology and history, Bemidji
                State College.

                *

                During the excavations of Jericho (1930-1936) Garstang found something
                so startling that a statement of what they found was prepared and
                signed by himself and tow other members of the team.

                In reference to these findings Garstang says: "As to the main fact,
                then, there remains no doubt: the walls fell outwards so completely
                that the attackers would be able to clamor up and over their ruins
                into the city."

                Why so unusual? Because walls of cities do not fall outwards, they
                fall inwards.

                And yet in Joshua 6:20 we hear " . . . the wall fell down flat, so
                that the people went up into the city every man straight ahead, and
                they took the city."

                Garstang, John Joshua Judges. London: Constable, 1931. Page 146
              • Todd E. Tornow
                ... Did not the Babylonians do this after they torched Judah? Judah was on or near a major trade route. Egypt was a major trade partner. When the Babylonians
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 1, 2008
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                  --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                  <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
                  >

                  > "Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I
                  > will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the
                  > tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall
                  > pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither
                  > shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt
                  > desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her
                  > cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty
                  > years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will
                  > disperse them through the countries. Yet thus saith the Lord God; At
                  > the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the people
                  > whither they were scattered. And I will bring again the captivity of
                  > Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into
                  > the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base kingdom.
                  > It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself
                  > any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall
                  > no more rule over the nations."
                  > —Ezekiel 29:9-15
                  >

                  Did not the Babylonians do this after they torched Judah?

                  Judah was on or near a major trade route.

                  Egypt was a major trade partner.

                  When the Babylonians were done, they were both no more.
                • Heinz Schmitz
                  ... I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same for most ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims true. For
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 2, 2008
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                    --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                    <tetornow@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                    > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Reply: There is no evidence to support the bible's claims either.
                    > >
                    >
                    > The Bible and Archaeology
                    >
                    > "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has
                    > ever controverted a biblical reference."

                    I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same for most
                    ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims true.
                    For instance, Josephus has become a very important writer to us, but
                    this does not mean I need to acccept hims claims of chariots riding in
                    the clouds. I see no reason why an ancient writer would need to make up
                    names of places when there are so many existing places at his disposal.
                    My problem is with the Bible's prophetic and supernatural claims.
                    Heinz
                  • Heinz Schmitz
                    ... I ... shall ... Egypt ... forty ... will ... At ... people ... of ... into ... kingdom. ... itself ... shall ... The Babylonians did not destroy Egypt, the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 2, 2008
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                      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                      <tetornow@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > > "Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and
                      I
                      > > will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the
                      > > tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man
                      shall
                      > > pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither
                      > > shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of
                      Egypt
                      > > desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her
                      > > cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate
                      forty
                      > > years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and
                      will
                      > > disperse them through the countries. Yet thus saith the Lord God;
                      At
                      > > the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the
                      people
                      > > whither they were scattered. And I will bring again the captivity
                      of
                      > > Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros,
                      into
                      > > the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base
                      kingdom.
                      > > It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt
                      itself
                      > > any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they
                      shall
                      > > no more rule over the nations."
                      > > —Ezekiel 29:9-15
                      > >
                      >
                      > Did not the Babylonians do this after they torched Judah?
                      >
                      > Judah was on or near a major trade route.
                      >
                      > Egypt was a major trade partner.
                      >
                      > When the Babylonians were done, they were both no more.
                      >

                      The Babylonians did not destroy Egypt, the Nile never dried up, there
                      was never a time when Egypt was desolate for forty years, and
                      therefore no return of the Egyptians either.
                      Heinz
                    • wglmp
                      ... either. ... has ... most ... true. ... but ... in ... Josephus wrote of chariot riding in the clouds? Where was this? Matt
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 3, 2008
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                        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                        <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                        > <tetornow@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                        > > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Reply: There is no evidence to support the bible's claims
                        either.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > The Bible and Archaeology
                        > >
                        > > "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery
                        has
                        > > ever controverted a biblical reference."
                        >
                        > I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same for
                        most
                        > ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims
                        true.
                        > For instance, Josephus has become a very important writer to us,
                        but
                        > this does not mean I need to acccept hims claims of chariots riding
                        in
                        > the clouds.

                        Josephus wrote of chariot riding in the clouds? Where was this?

                        Matt
                      • Heinz Schmitz
                        ... discovery ... for ... riding ... Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and- twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 3, 2008
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                          --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "wglmp" <mtillman@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                          > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                          > > <tetornow@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                          > > > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Reply: There is no evidence to support the bible's claims
                          > either.
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > The Bible and Archaeology
                          > > >
                          > > > "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological
                          discovery
                          > has
                          > > > ever controverted a biblical reference."
                          > >
                          > > I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same
                          for
                          > most
                          > > ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims
                          > true.
                          > > For instance, Josephus has become a very important writer to us,
                          > but
                          > > this does not mean I need to acccept hims claims of chariots
                          riding
                          > in
                          > > the clouds.
                          >
                          > Josephus wrote of chariot riding in the clouds? Where was this?
                          >
                          > Matt

                          "Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-
                          twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious
                          and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would
                          seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and
                          were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as
                          to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops
                          of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds,
                          and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call
                          Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court
                          of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred
                          ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a
                          quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound
                          as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars,
                          VI-V-3).
                        • Todd E. Tornow
                          ... and- ... would ... troops ... clouds, ... Wars, ... Can we not say that we do not understand what he is writing about because we were not there and there
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 9, 2008
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                            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                            <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > "Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one-
                            and-
                            > twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious
                            > and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it
                            would
                            > seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and
                            > were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as
                            > to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and
                            troops
                            > of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the
                            clouds,
                            > and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call
                            > Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court
                            > of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred
                            > ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a
                            > quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound
                            > as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish
                            Wars,
                            > VI-V-3).
                            >

                            Can we not say that we do not understand what he is writing about
                            because we were not there and there are no other witnesses who wrote
                            about the event?
                          • Todd E. Tornow
                            ... most ... true. ... but ... in ... make up ... disposal. ... You reject a historical document because of your subjective belief that the supernatural does
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 9, 2008
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                              --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                              <christian_skeptic@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same for
                              most
                              > ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims
                              true.
                              > For instance, Josephus has become a very important writer to us,
                              but
                              > this does not mean I need to acccept hims claims of chariots riding
                              in
                              > the clouds. I see no reason why an ancient writer would need to
                              make up
                              > names of places when there are so many existing places at his
                              disposal.
                              > My problem is with the Bible's prophetic and supernatural claims.
                              > Heinz
                              >

                              You reject a historical document because of your subjective belief
                              that the supernatural does not occur.

                              Can't you just take the writer for their word and honesly say that
                              you do not know how this happened.

                              Yes, many miracles back then have been 'duplicated' via modern
                              medicine.
                            • Heinz Schmitz
                              ... prodigious ... as ... [court ... sound ... wrote ... I understand what he is saying. Don t you? He was writing at a time in history when people made
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 13, 2008
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                                --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                                <tetornow@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                                > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > "Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one-
                                > and-
                                > > twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain
                                prodigious
                                > > and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it
                                > would
                                > > seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and
                                > > were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature
                                as
                                > > to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and
                                > troops
                                > > of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the
                                > clouds,
                                > > and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call
                                > > Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner
                                [court
                                > > of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred
                                > > ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a
                                > > quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a
                                sound
                                > > as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish
                                > Wars,
                                > > VI-V-3).
                                > >
                                >
                                > Can we not say that we do not understand what he is writing about
                                > because we were not there and there are no other witnesses who
                                wrote
                                > about the event?

                                I understand what he is saying. Don't you? He was writing at a time
                                in history when people made fantastic and supernatural claims, and it
                                is not up to me, 2000 years later, to accept these preposterous
                                claims.
                                Heinz
                              • Heinz Schmitz
                                ... for ... riding ... I think it was Thomas Paine that said, and I paraphrase, Which is more likely: that the laws of nature could be overturned, or that
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 13, 2008
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                                  --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Todd E. Tornow"
                                  <tetornow@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Heinz Schmitz"
                                  > <christian_skeptic@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I have no problem with the archeaology, and I can say the same
                                  for
                                  > most
                                  > > ancient books - but that does not make their supernatural claims
                                  > true.
                                  > > For instance, Josephus has become a very important writer to us,
                                  > but
                                  > > this does not mean I need to acccept hims claims of chariots
                                  riding
                                  > in
                                  > > the clouds. I see no reason why an ancient writer would need to
                                  > make up
                                  > > names of places when there are so many existing places at his
                                  > disposal.
                                  > > My problem is with the Bible's prophetic and supernatural claims.
                                  > > Heinz
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > You reject a historical document because of your subjective belief
                                  > that the supernatural does not occur.
                                  >
                                  > Can't you just take the writer for their word and honesly say that
                                  > you do not know how this happened.

                                  I think it was Thomas Paine that said, and I paraphrase, "Which is
                                  more likely: that the laws of nature could be overturned, or that
                                  someone was lying."
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