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Hades

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  • markcevallos
    Mr. Leonard, Thank you for an answer straight from the bible. Now I see what you ( and the Scripture) are saying. I think I had a wrong view of the promise of
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 4, 2008
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      Mr. Leonard,

      Thank you for an answer straight from the bible. Now I see what you
      ( and the Scripture) are saying. I think I had a wrong view of the
      promise of Jesus. But does the promise also include the idea that there
      will never be a period, time, or even a moment, wherein there are no
      christians or group of christians for that matter, say during the Dark
      Ages? And my catholic friends might argue that we are the tares or
      weeds in the field since the reformers and their likes in earlier times
      were a minority compared to the vast number of those who held the Roman
      traditions. They call non-catholic denominations as "seperated
      brethres," and some go even further by saying that we are cults and
      heretics.. I guess out of this many more questions arise which I think I
      am not able to articulate, but I hope you do understand .
      I might not have the same inellectual integrity most of you guys
      have, but I am willing to learn, especially because I want to live for
      Christ more fruitfully and share Him more effectively. Thank you for
      your patience.

      Desiring Him,
      Mark
    • Paul Leonard
      HI Mark, Thank you for your reply. I hope to respond tomorrow. I have had minimal time lately. ... From: markcevallos Subject:
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 5, 2008
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        HI Mark,

        Thank you for your reply. I hope to respond tomorrow. I have had minimal time lately.

        --- On Mon, 8/4/08, markcevallos <markcevallos@...> wrote:
        From: markcevallos <markcevallos@...>
        Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Hades
        To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 11:22 PM

        Mr. Leonard,

        Thank you for an answer straight from the bible. Now I see what you
        ( and the Scripture) are saying. I think I had a wrong view of the
        promise of Jesus. But does the promise also include the idea that there
        will never be a period, time, or even a moment, wherein there are no
        christians or group of christians for that matter, say during the Dark
        Ages? And my catholic friends might argue that we are the tares or
        weeds in the field since the reformers and their likes in earlier times
        were a minority compared to the vast number of those who held the Roman
        traditions. They call non-catholic denominations as "seperated
        brethres," and some go even further by saying that we are cults and
        heretics.. I guess out of this many more questions arise which I think I
        am not able to articulate, but I hope you do understand .
        I might not have the same inellectual integrity most of you guys
        have, but I am willing to learn, especially because I want to live for
        Christ more fruitfully and share Him more effectively. Thank you for
        your patience.

        Desiring Him,
        Mark

      • Paul Leonard
        Hi, ... From: markcevallos Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Hades To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, August 4, 2008,
        Message 3 of 3 , Aug 6, 2008
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          Hi,

          See below:

          --- On Mon, 8/4/08, markcevallos <markcevallos@...> wrote:
          From: markcevallos <markcevallos@...>
          Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Hades
          To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 11:22 PM

          Mr. Leonard,

          Thank you for an answer straight from the bible. Now I see what you
          ( and the Scripture) are saying. I think I had a wrong view of the
          promise of Jesus. But does the promise also include the idea that there
          will never be a period, time, or even a moment, wherein there are no
          christians or group of christians for that matter, say during the Dark
          Ages?

          A.P. No, the promise is for all time. The problem is identifying them. Remember it is only at the harvest that a weed can be seen as it produces no fruit, as the wheat does. So we cannot say for sure who, on an individual level, was or was not. The same with many "churches". Unless we have significant historical evidence we cannot say for sure. After all if you had only had the negative info about , say the church in Pergamum (Rev 2:12), would you have felt that anyone was a true Christian there, let alone the church/congregation?

          It is only because we have more info in Rev 2 that we can say they were, though some members weren't. Though even then we cannot identify such by name. They were all IN the congregation. Now if the congregation did not remove such they would stay polluted. On the other hand they might not be removed, as it was foretold that false shepherds would also arise.

          Actually what difference does it make to us today? It isn't simply the errors of the past we look at or no church would stand. It is the fruit TODAY that is to be examined and is it different than say 200 or 300 years ago? IF no change, it ain't it as likely to be NOW teaching Truer doctrine. That does not mean none of God's people are in such  as Rev 18:4 makes it pretty plain that some are in the wrong place and they MUST get out, and they ARE His people. To get out you have to be able to identify the true from the false.

          And my catholic friends might argue that we are the tares or
          weeds in the field since the reformers and their likes in earlier times
          were a minority compared to the vast number of those who held the Roman
          traditions.

          A.P. Humm, I think a good counter argument is first to look at their "leaders" over the last 1700 years or so. Do we see rampant hypocrisy, dishonesty, the killing of innocents, etc? If so that can eliminate the leadership/Church right there. Think Borgia Popes, Immoral Popes, the Inquisition, etc. A Scriptural one,showing the Catholic Church cannot appeal to size/membership, is found in Jesus words in Matt 7.

          ASV Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. 14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.

          Jesus was speaking to believers in God even then. NOT of unbelievers. It seems that at NO time were the True Christians, after the late 1st century passed, the majority. The minority are more likely to be closer to that condition. Notice at the "End" or judgment.

          ASV Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

          In the context of Matt 7 this really points to the majority as being not known by Jesus. In context Many means the majority. The reformers were just as likely to be tainted with some falsehood as were the churches they were trying to reform. It was NOT yet the harvest. Personally I look at the people as simply doing the best they could with what was available to them. Pastors/Priests etc were both good and bad, as were the followers. I can't know for sure, so I leave that up to God to KNOW. I worry about me and those I can reach and share with and be helped by where necessary.


          They call non-catholic denominations as "seperated
          brethres," and some go even further by saying that we are cults and
          heretics.. I guess out of this many more questions arise which I think I
          am not able to articulate, but I hope you do understand .
          I might not have the same inellectual integrity most of you guys
          have, but I am willing to learn, especially because I want to live for
          Christ more fruitfully and share Him more effectively. Thank you for
          your patience.

          A.P.  We are ALL learning. We may differ in some beliefs and practices but we are all learning as none is yet perfect. Study, pray, meditate, question until you arrive at a basis for judging beyond yourself. Then start to examine the groups/congregations/churches around you and see how they line up. Now you may be wrong, but in many areas it is quite plain as to what is true doctrine and what isn't. By NOT having an attachment to any "group" you will not be held back by an internal bias, etc. Do what the Boroeans were commended by Paul for doing. Check everything against scripture.

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