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Hades shall not prevail

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  • markcevallos
    Hi Mr. Bowman and BA Guys, The Philippines is a dominantly Catholic country, and I grew up with the upbringing of a devoutly catholic parents and relatives. In
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 4, 2008
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      Hi Mr. Bowman and BA Guys,

      The Philippines is a dominantly Catholic country, and I grew up with
      the upbringing of a devoutly catholic parents and relatives. In fact,
      I went to a catholic school and served as an altar person and was even
      a member the Mary's White League before I really became a christian.
      Although I still appreciate the rich traditions of the Roman Church, I
      am well aware that many of them are unbiblical. Lately however, I
      wondered how we should respond to some catholic friends quoting
      Matthew 16:18, and then asserting that the Roman church is the only
      christian institution that can claim direct apostolic succession. They
      are implying that protestantism just came out of nowhere and
      arrogantly claimmed the authority for interpreting what christianity
      ought to be. Honestly, Since I am new believer (I becvame a christian
      in 2003) I don't know how to respond to this, especially because I am
      not aware of any group before the reformation, save the Waldenses, who
      held a view of Christianity similar to ours (evangelicals) today.
      Certainly the Lord promised that the gates of hell, but the question
      always comes up, where was protestantism before the reformation?

      Sincerely,
      Mark
    • Patrick Navas
      Dear Mark, In my view, although a lot of good came (and still comes out) of Protestantism, the Protestant Churches of the 16th century carried over many of
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 4, 2008
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        Dear Mark,
         
        In my view, although a lot of good came (and still comes out) of "Protestantism," the Protestant Churches of the 16th century carried over many of the same, unscriptural traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, like killing dissidents and torturing "heretics," something contrary to the authentic spirit of Christianity.
         
        That is why it is, in my opinion, best not to identify one's self as a "Protestant" or a "Catholic," but to simply make it one's life-long goal to be a "Christian," a follower of Christ.
         
        Best wishes,
         
        Patrick Navas
         
        Thoughts on the Name "Christian"
         

         

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: markcevallos <markcevallos@...>
        To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 12:26:51 AM
        Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Hades shall not prevail


        Hi Mr. Bowman and BA Guys,

        The Philippines is a dominantly Catholic country, and I grew up with
        the upbringing of a devoutly catholic parents and relatives. In fact,
        I went to a catholic school and served as an altar person and was even
        a member the Mary's White League before I really became a christian.
        Although I still appreciate the rich traditions of the Roman Church, I
        am well aware that many of them are unbiblical. Lately however, I
        wondered how we should respond to some catholic friends quoting
        Matthew 16:18, and then asserting that the Roman church is the only
        christian institution that can claim direct apostolic succession. They
        are implying that protestantism just came out of nowhere and
        arrogantly claimmed the authority for interpreting what christianity
        ought to be. Honestly, Since I am new believer (I becvame a christian
        in 2003) I don't know how to respond to this, especially because I am
        not aware of any group before the reformation, save the Waldenses, who
        held a view of Christianity similar to ours (evangelicals) today.
        Certainly the Lord promised that the gates of hell, but the question
        always comes up, where was protestantism before the reformation?

        Sincerely,
        Mark

      • Paul Leonard
         Matt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:  25 But while men
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 4, 2008
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           Matt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
           25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
           26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
           27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
           28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
           29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
           30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

          They were there in Rev Chapter 2 and 3 and would be until the harvest. Neither Catholic nor Protestant nor Orthodox, etc was free of them. The church was not overcome but it was internally corrupt at all levels, as history shows.

          --- On Mon, 8/4/08, markcevallos <markcevallos@...> wrote:
          From: markcevallos <markcevallos@...>
          Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Hades shall not prevail
          To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 12:26 AM


          Hi Mr. Bowman and BA Guys,

          The Philippines is a dominantly Catholic country, and I grew up with
          the upbringing of a devoutly catholic parents and relatives. In fact,
          I went to a catholic school and served as an altar person and was even
          a member the Mary's White League before I really became a christian.
          Although I still appreciate the rich traditions of the Roman Church, I
          am well aware that many of them are unbiblical. Lately however, I
          wondered how we should respond to some catholic friends quoting
          Matthew 16:18, and then asserting that the Roman church is the only
          christian institution that can claim direct apostolic succession. They
          are implying that protestantism just came out of nowhere and
          arrogantly claimmed the authority for interpreting what christianity
          ought to be. Honestly, Since I am new believer (I becvame a christian
          in 2003) I don't know how to respond to this, especially because I am
          not aware of any group before the reformation, save the Waldenses, who
          held a view of Christianity similar to ours (evangelicals) today.
          Certainly the Lord promised that the gates of hell, but the question
          always comes up, where was protestantism before the reformation?

          Sincerely,
          Mark

        • markcevallos
          I appreciate your reply Mr. Navas, and I will always remember not to dwell so much on the terms Protestant or Catholic, to the point of missing the real
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 4, 2008
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            I appreciate your reply Mr. Navas, and I will always remember not
            to dwell so much on the terms Protestant or Catholic, to the point of
            missing the real essence of being a Christian. Indeed the followers of
            Christ, must be called for what they are, christians, not based on
            their denominational affiliations, but in some situations it is
            necessarry to identify the differences, especially in doctrinal areas.
            In the same way that it is necessarry to differentiate between men and
            women, although both can be simply called humans. But don't get me
            wrong, I do share what you said, in fact, I can count on the fingers
            of one hand how many times I've called myself "protestant." In fact, I
            believe that many catholics are christians, and many protestants are
            non-christians (this is an understatement.) Furthermore, it was a
            catholic group that was instrumental for me hearing "THE Gospel."
            However, can I explain where my question was coming from? I
            sincerely seek an answer. But first let me respond to how you used the
            term tradition. You've used it referring to killings and tortures of
            "heretics." certainly these are not traditions, and I never refered to
            them as such. Traditions are those that were passed on to us from the
            past, that, to the "catholic" church's view ( I'm sorry, I cannot
            avoid it) the observance of which,are necessarry to salvation. This is
            expressed in dogmas and ex cathedras, etc.
            I would also clear something out. I have talked to American
            christians, and they see my view of catholicism as offensive.
            Especially when I mention how the Ronman Church has gone a long way
            out of authentic christianity. Now, I understand that while saying
            this, any american reader woyuld think that I am being very critical
            of the Roman Church. The reaction is valid if they unnderstand where
            the criticism comes from. Catholicism in North America is very
            differetn from what it is here, in thirld world countries, especially
            in the Philippines and Latin America. I wish you lived my life, grew
            in a catholic family, been active inside the institution and studied
            its theology the way I did. In the states, many christians consider
            catholicism as just another denomination, here its different. It
            socially persecutes non catholic churches here. Here, evangelicals are
            considered cults. In strongly catholic towns, treat non-catholics as
            if we have leprosy( forgive my language, but I cannot underemphasize
            the point) Catholics simply needs to be evangelized.For short, when a
            non American talks about Catholicism, American christians should
            adjust their lenses, to understand the issue presented. I hope this
            has been helpful.
            Please look at my previous question that way, and although I got
            much encouragement and insight from your message, it did not answer my
            question. I joined this group to effectively share the gospel to
            people in my university, many of them athiest and most of them
            Catholics (I hope you now see the term, the way I do).
            I know I now have the priviliege of learning from you Mr. Navas.
            Since I am a young christian, can I express my desire to make you one
            of my mentors in the Christian walk?
            Glory and honor to our Ultimate Mentor!

            Sincerely,
            Mark
          • Patrick Navas
            Mark, I m definitely not worthy of being a mentor. I m more of a Bible student than a Bible teacher. Check out this paper on the Gospel (attached) if you get
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 6, 2008
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              Mark,
               
              I'm definitely not worthy of being a mentor. I'm more of a Bible student than a Bible teacher.
               
              Check out this paper on the Gospel (attached) if you get a chance...
               
               
              Best wishes,
               
              Patrick Navas

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: markcevallos <markcevallos@...>
              To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 8:16:53 PM
              Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Hades shall not prevail


              I appreciate your reply Mr. Navas, and I will always remember not
              to dwell so much on the terms Protestant or Catholic, to the point of
              missing the real essence of being a Christian. Indeed the followers of
              Christ, must be called for what they are, christians, not based on
              their denominational affiliations, but in some situations it is
              necessarry to identify the differences, especially in doctrinal areas.
              In the same way that it is necessarry to differentiate between men and
              women, although both can be simply called humans. But don't get me
              wrong, I do share what you said, in fact, I can count on the fingers
              of one hand how many times I've called myself "protestant. " In fact, I
              believe that many catholics are christians, and many protestants are
              non-christians (this is an understatement. ) Furthermore, it was a
              catholic group that was instrumental for me hearing "THE Gospel."
              However, can I explain where my question was coming from? I
              sincerely seek an answer. But first let me respond to how you used the
              term tradition. You've used it referring to killings and tortures of
              "heretics." certainly these are not traditions, and I never refered to
              them as such. Traditions are those that were passed on to us from the
              past, that, to the "catholic" church's view ( I'm sorry, I cannot
              avoid it) the observance of which,are necessarry to salvation. This is
              expressed in dogmas and ex cathedras, etc.
              I would also clear something out. I have talked to American
              christians, and they see my view of catholicism as offensive.
              Especially when I mention how the Ronman Church has gone a long way
              out of authentic christianity. Now, I understand that while saying
              this, any american reader woyuld think that I am being very critical
              of the Roman Church. The reaction is valid if they unnderstand where
              the criticism comes from. Catholicism in North America is very
              differetn from what it is here, in thirld world countries, especially
              in the Philippines and Latin America. I wish you lived my life, grew
              in a catholic family, been active inside the institution and studied
              its theology the way I did. In the states, many christians consider
              catholicism as just another denomination, here its different. It
              socially persecutes non catholic churches here. Here, evangelicals are
              considered cults. In strongly catholic towns, treat non-catholics as
              if we have leprosy( forgive my language, but I cannot underemphasize
              the point) Catholics simply needs to be evangelized. For short, when a
              non American talks about Catholicism, American christians should
              adjust their lenses, to understand the issue presented. I hope this
              has been helpful.
              Please look at my previous question that way, and although I got
              much encouragement and insight from your message, it did not answer my
              question. I joined this group to effectively share the gospel to
              people in my university, many of them athiest and most of them
              Catholics (I hope you now see the term, the way I do).
              I know I now have the priviliege of learning from you Mr. Navas.
              Since I am a young christian, can I express my desire to make you one
              of my mentors in the Christian walk?
              Glory and honor to our Ultimate Mentor!

              Sincerely,
              Mark

            • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
              Dear Mark, I can relate to much of your experience. I was also raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, and served as an altar boy, but I was not a Christian
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 9, 2008
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                Dear Mark,

                I can relate to much of your experience. I was also raised Catholic,
                went to Catholic school, and served as an altar boy, but I was not a
                Christian then as I would now understand it.

                Protestantism did not come out of nowhere. It was not a new religion,
                but a reform movement within Catholicism. That is why its origin is
                known as the Reformation.

                Matthew 16:18 indicates that the church would not ultimately fail in
                God's purpose, but it does not mean that the church would not go
                through periods of change. Look at it this way: Even Catholicism as
                we know it today is very different from the church of the second and
                third centuries (or even of the fourth and fifth centuries).
                Christians of those early centuries held views that differed in
                significant ways from that of evangelical Protestants AND of Roman
                Catholics. That is because the church was not and is not perfect or
                infallible.

                An interesting book in this connection is B. B. Warfield's classic
                study _Augustine and Calvin_. Warfield argues that in his doctrine of
                salvation Augustine (the great theologian of the late fourth and
                early fifth century) was closer to Protestant evangelicalism than to
                Catholicism, while in his doctrine of the church Augustine was closer
                to Catholicism than to Protestant evangelicalism.

                In Christ's service,
                Rob Bowman
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