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Re: [biblicalapologetics] Re: God incarnate

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  • mtillman@ec.rr.com
    You said you could have asked When did Jesus know that he was formerly Michael the archangel? Do you mean to say that you think Jesus WAS Micharl the
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 11, 2008
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      You said you could have asked "When did Jesus know that he was formerly Michael the archangel?"
      Do you mean to say that you think Jesus WAS Micharl the archangel? Or are you simply saying you could have asked a whole series of non-sensical questions, such as "When did Jesus know that he was formerly Michael the archangel?" is?
      There are several reasons I think "When did Jesus know that he was formerly Michael the archangel?" _is_ non-sensical, in part because of the implication that Jesus was "God incarnate," which means he CAN'T also have been formerly Michael the archangel.
      You also asked if Jesus was the first creature God created, but if he was created, how could he also be "equally God with the Father"? Can a god be created?
      How would you conform this all with the Biblical verses where God said He does not have a son, and that there is no god beside Him? Eccl. 4:8, for example.

      ---- "Robert M. Bowman wrote:
      > Paul,
      >
      > You wrote:
      >
      > << Your answer speaks of his knowing when he was "Gods Son", in a
      > unique way and I agree with his knowing such by his baptism at the
      > latest. However that is not really the question.
      >
      > When did he know he was "God incarnate", which is different thing?
      >
      > That is the specific point being inquired about. >>
      >
      > Ah, well, that's the issue, isn't it? When you say that Jesus
      > is "God's Son," you mean that he is the first creature that God made;
      > when I say that Jesus is "God's Son," I mean that he is the eternal,
      > infinite, divine Son, equally God with the Father.
      >
      > I could ask you similarly specific questions, such as, When did Jesus
      > know that he was formerly Michael the archangel? Or, When did Jesus
      > know that he had been created as the first and greatest of God's
      > spirit sons?
      >
      > You asked:
      >
      > << As a side point; When do wee find him clearly speaking of this? >>
      >
      > See above.
      >
      > In Christ's service,
      > Rob Bowman
      >
      >
      >
    • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
      Mr. Tillman, I don t think Jesus was Michael the archangel. However, Paul, who is a Jehovah s Witness, does think this. Ecclesiastes 4:8? What version are you
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 11, 2008
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        Mr. Tillman,

        I don't think Jesus was Michael the archangel. However, Paul, who is
        a Jehovah's Witness, does think this.

        Ecclesiastes 4:8? What version are you reading?

        Jesus is not *another* God, or a God "beside" the LORD. Again, if
        that is anyone's theology here, it would be Paul's theology, not mine
        (although Paul doesn't see it that way).

        In Christ's service,
        Rob Bowman



        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, <mtillman@...> wrote:
        >
        > You said you could have asked "When did Jesus know that he was
        formerly Michael the archangel?"
        > Do you mean to say that you think Jesus WAS Micharl the archangel?
        Or are you simply saying you could have asked a whole series of non-
        sensical questions, such as "When did Jesus know that he was formerly
        Michael the archangel?" is?
        > There are several reasons I think "When did Jesus know that he was
        formerly Michael the archangel?" _is_ non-sensical, in part because
        of the implication that Jesus was "God incarnate," which means he
        CAN'T also have been formerly Michael the archangel.
        > You also asked if Jesus was the first creature God created, but if
        he was created, how could he also be "equally God with the Father"?
        Can a god be created?
        > How would you conform this all with the Biblical verses where God
        said He does not have a son, and that there is no god beside Him?
        Eccl. 4:8, for example.
        >
        > ---- "Robert M. Bowman wrote:
        > > Paul,
        > >
        > > You wrote:
        > >
        > > << Your answer speaks of his knowing when he was "Gods Son", in a
        > > unique way and I agree with his knowing such by his baptism at
        the
        > > latest. However that is not really the question.
        > >
        > > When did he know he was "God incarnate", which is different
        thing?
        > >
        > > That is the specific point being inquired about. >>
        > >
        > > Ah, well, that's the issue, isn't it? When you say that Jesus
        > > is "God's Son," you mean that he is the first creature that God
        made;
        > > when I say that Jesus is "God's Son," I mean that he is the
        eternal,
        > > infinite, divine Son, equally God with the Father.
        > >
        > > I could ask you similarly specific questions, such as, When did
        Jesus
        > > know that he was formerly Michael the archangel? Or, When did
        Jesus
        > > know that he had been created as the first and greatest of God's
        > > spirit sons?
        > >
        > > You asked:
        > >
        > > << As a side point; When do wee find him clearly speaking of
        this? >>
        > >
        > > See above.
        > >
        > > In Christ's service,
        > > Rob Bowman
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Paul Leonard
        Hi Rob, OK, I see what you are saying. It is an inference from the position that you hold, based on what you believe is meant by God s Son . OK, that is what
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 12, 2008
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          Hi Rob,

          OK, I see what you are saying. It is an inference from the position that you hold, based on what you believe is meant by "God's Son". OK, that is what I was asking about and that answers it quite nicely.

          Thank you.

          "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
          Paul,

          You wrote:

          << Your answer speaks of his knowing when he was "Gods Son", in a
          unique way and I agree with his knowing such by his baptism at the
          latest. However that is not really the question.

          When did he know he was "God incarnate", which is different thing?

          That is the specific point being inquired about. >>

          Ah, well, that's the issue, isn't it? When you say that Jesus
          is "God's Son," you mean that he is the first creature that God made;
          when I say that Jesus is "God's Son," I mean that he is the eternal,
          infinite, divine Son, equally God with the Father.

          I could ask you similarly specific questions, such as, When did Jesus
          know that he was formerly Michael the archangel? Or, When did Jesus
          know that he had been created as the first and greatest of God's
          spirit sons?

          You asked:

          << As a side point; When do wee find him clearly speaking of this? >>

          See above.

          In Christ's service,
          Rob Bowman


        • Cheryl Young
          Iranian film director Nader Talebzadeh has an award at the 2007 Religion Film Festival in Italy for his movie Jesus spirit of God (Isa roh-e khoda). The
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 15, 2008
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            Iranian film director Nader Talebzadeh has an award at the 2007
            Religion Film Festival in Italy for his movie "Jesus spirit of God"
            (Isa roh-e khoda). The movie details the Islamic perspective of
            Jesus that he was not the son of God.
            http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=105509

            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard
            <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Rob,
            >
            > OK, I see what you are saying. It is an inference from the position
            that you hold, based on what you believe is meant by "God's Son". OK,
            that is what I was asking about and that answers it quite nicely.
            >
            > Thank you.
            >
            > "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons@...>
            wrote: Paul,
            >
            > You wrote:
            >
            > << Your answer speaks of his knowing when he was "Gods Son", in a
            > unique way and I agree with his knowing such by his baptism at the
            > latest. However that is not really the question.
            >
            > When did he know he was "God incarnate", which is different thing?
            >
            > That is the specific point being inquired about. >>
            >
            > Ah, well, that's the issue, isn't it? When you say that Jesus
            > is "God's Son," you mean that he is the first creature that God
            made;
            > when I say that Jesus is "God's Son," I mean that he is the
            eternal,
            > infinite, divine Son, equally God with the Father.
            >
            > I could ask you similarly specific questions, such as, When did
            Jesus
            > know that he was formerly Michael the archangel? Or, When did
            Jesus
            > know that he had been created as the first and greatest of God's
            > spirit sons?
            >
            > You asked:
            >
            > << As a side point; When do wee find him clearly speaking of this?
            >>
            >
            > See above.
            >
            > In Christ's service,
            > Rob Bowman
            >
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