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Find the flaw in logic.

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  • Todd Tornow
    I would like some input on how to get around this one. I have some ideas. But I would like some other input. * Christians are people who have accepted the holy
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 2, 2008
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      I would like some input on how to get around this one.
       
      I have some ideas.
       
      But I would like some other input.
       
      *
       
      Christians are people who have accepted the holy spirit in to their hearts, souls, and selves; 

      by accepting the holy spirit they have accepted jesus into their selves: 

      By accepting jesus into their selves they have accepted god into their selves; 

       sin does not exist in the presence of god; 

      god is in all Christians; 

      all the above being true christians can not sin.



      Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!
    • Daniel Eaton
      Besides the fact that the conclusion is in opposition to James 4:17, it equates the Holy Spirit with the Father in a way that is very modalistic. We know that
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 2, 2008
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        Besides the fact that the conclusion is in opposition to James 4:17, it equates the Holy Spirit with the Father in a way that is very modalistic. We know that Christ can be in the presence of sin as He became sin for us.  We know that the Holy Spirit can as well.
        D.

        On Jan 2, 2008 9:33 AM, Todd Tornow <tetornow@...> wrote:

        I would like some input on how to get around this one.
         
        I have some ideas.
         
        But I would like some other input.
         
        *
         
        Christians are people who have accepted the holy spirit in to their hearts, souls, and selves; 

        by accepting the holy spirit they have accepted jesus into their selves: 

        By accepting jesus into their selves they have accepted god into their selves; 

         sin does not exist in the presence of god; 

        god is in all Christians; 

        all the above being true christians can not sin.



        --
        http://www.my-fractals.com
        apophysitis.my-fractals.com
        daniel.my-fractals.com
      • tcmadd2@aol.com
        It seems to me that God s sinlessness does not mean that sin cannot exist in his presence. After all, if he is omnipresent, and sin exists in the universe,
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 2, 2008
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          It seems to me that God's sinlessness does not mean that sin cannot exist in his presence.  After all, if he is omnipresent, and sin exists in the universe, God must tolerate the presence of sin.
           
           



        • wglmp
          ... ideas. But I would like some other input. * Christians are people who have accepted the holy spirit in to their hearts, souls, and selves; ... their
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 2, 2008
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            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Todd Tornow
            <tetornow@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I would like some input on how to get around this one. I have some
            ideas. But I would like some other input. * Christians are people who
            have accepted the holy spirit in to their hearts, souls, and selves;
            > by accepting the holy spirit they have accepted jesus into their
            selves:
            > By accepting jesus into their selves they have accepted god into
            their selves;
            > sin does not exist in the presence of god;
            > god is in all Christians;
            > all the above being true christians can not sin.
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
            > http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec
            >

            I can't speak to the rest of it yet, because this popped out at me
            first, and I need to address it before I consider any other problems
            in that train of thought.
            You said, "sin does not exist in the presence of god". This is a
            false statement. God is everywhere, therefore, wherever there is sin,
            God is there as well. To say that sin does not exist in the presence
            of God is to limit God by claiming God isn't everywhere.
            I do not believe in a Hell as in a place of outer darkness and
            separation from God, because it implies that God is not always
            everywhere.
            Being always everywhere is the very definition of Omnipresence.
            God is Omnipresent.
            Therefore, there is no place where God is not.
            There _IS_ a place for the punishment of the unrighteous after theiur
            deaths. It is a place of torment that SEEMS (but is NOT) unending. It
            is NOT a place to be avoided, but it IS a condition to avoid once one
            goes to that place.
            That place is the very Presence of God.
            There can be no greater punishment for a soul than to be in the
            Presence and finally come to realize that all his/her "excuses" for
            sin are folly and vanity and foolishness. The Jews say that a person
            dfoes not sin except he goes a little insane. The definition of
            insanity is believing the untrue to be true, or the true to be
            untrue. God is Omniscient, so God knows every thought and every
            action of youe life. God knows that you assumed, or kidded yourself
            into thinking that nobody caught you taking that cookie from the
            cookie jar (or whatever that cookie represents in your particular
            life, whether is that extra dime in change the teller gave you but
            that you didn't return or whatever.) When you die, you go to the
            presence of God without the interference of the physical reality
            between you and God, which is pretty much all reality is: a barrier
            between you and God's Glory.
            This is part of why I do not believe in The Devil. The very concept
            implies that an angel of God, who stood in the very Presence of God,
            didn't know that any rebellion against God was doomed to failure
            because God would know about it the very instant such a notion would
            have entered that angel's mind. Angels have no freewill, but humans
            DO.
            So humans can sin, but angels cannot. If there is an angel that kills
            or carries out some other evil, it is only because God wills it to do
            so.
            So, even though a person has a deep and abiding relationship with
            God, due to his/her freewill, that person CAN sin. David, Soloman,
            Moses, Abraham and Noah all sinned, yet they all were highly praised
            by God for their righteousness and devotion to God.Psalm 145:18. The
            Lord is near to all who call Him, to all who call Him with sincerity.
            "That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive
            their iniquity and their sin." (Jeremiah 36:3).
            It is probably BETTER that a man can sin, for without sin there would
            be no opportunity to "return" to God in repentence and renewed
            dedication to God and God's Will.
            The person who sins and repents, calls upon God and returns to God
            WILL be forgiven and earn great reward for that return. A reward
            he/she would NOT have earned had they NOT sinned!
            For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the
            wicked shall fall into mischief. (Pr 24:16)
            What this means is that, even after having fallen into error, a JUST
            MAN is the one who stands himself up and tries again to follow the
            True Path. It is the wicked man who gives up trying. The
            expression, "The man who sins once is cut off from God and is doomed
            to Hell" is unBiblical.
            Does that help?
          • setfreein1973@aol.com
            A Christians still sin, but we have the mediator Jesus Christ. Stan In a message dated 1/2/2008 11:33:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, danieleaton@gmail.com
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
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              A Christians still sin, but we have the mediator Jesus Christ.
              Stan
               
              In a message dated 1/2/2008 11:33:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, danieleaton@... writes:
              all the above being true christians can not sin




              Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
            • Paul Leonard
              And, Satan as an example, does not setfreein1973@aol.com wrote: A Christians still sin, but we have the mediator Jesus
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
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                And, Satan as an example, does not

                setfreein1973@... wrote:
                A Christians still sin, but we have the mediator Jesus Christ.
                Stan
                 
                In a message dated 1/2/2008 11:33:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, danieleaton@ gmail.com writes:
                all the above being true christians can not sin




                Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

              • wglmp
                Satan does not... what? Sin? ... Christians still sin, but we have the mediator Jesus Christ. ... year.
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
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                  Satan does not... what? Sin?

                  --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard
                  <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > And, Satan as an example, does not
                  >
                  > setfreein1973@... wrote: A
                  Christians still sin, but we have the mediator Jesus Christ.
                  > Stan
                  >
                  > In a message dated 1/2/2008 11:33:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  danieleaton@... writes:
                  > all the above being true christians can not sin
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new
                  year.
                  >
                • Paul Leonard
                  Have Jesus as a mediator. wglmp wrote: Satan does not... what? Sin? ... Christians still sin, but we have
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
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                    Have Jesus as a mediator.

                    wglmp <mtillman@...> wrote:
                    Satan does not... what? Sin?

                    --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Paul Leonard
                    <anotherpaul2001@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > And, Satan as an example, does not
                    >
                    > setfreein1973@ ... wrote: A
                    Christians still sin, but we have the mediator Jesus Christ.
                    > Stan
                    >
                    > In a message dated 1/2/2008 11:33:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    danieleaton@ ... writes:
                    > all the above being true christians can not sin
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                    > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new
                    year.
                    >


                  • wglmp
                    Oh. I get you now. Thanks. ... does not... what? Sin? ... Time,
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 6, 2008
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                      Oh. I get you now. Thanks.

                      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard
                      <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Have Jesus as a mediator.
                      >
                      > wglmp <mtillman@...> wrote: Satan
                      does not... what? Sin?
                      >
                      > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard
                      > <anotherpaul2001@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > And, Satan as an example, does not
                      > >
                      > > setfreein1973@ wrote: A
                      > Christians still sin, but we have the mediator Jesus Christ.
                      > > Stan
                      > >
                      > > In a message dated 1/2/2008 11:33:40 A.M. Eastern Standard
                      Time,
                      > danieleaton@ writes:
                      > > all the above being true christians can not sin
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new
                      > year.
                      > >
                      >
                    • anotherpaul2001
                      How would you answer this. Did Jesus know he was God incarnate? If he did know, when did Jesus know this? Rob, if you are around your, view was asked for.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 7, 2008
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                        How would you answer this.


                        "Did Jesus know he was God incarnate?

                        If he did know, when did Jesus know this?"

                        Rob, if you are around your, view was asked for.
                      • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
                        Paul, You asked: Did Jesus know he was God incarnate? If he did know, when did Jesus know this? Certainly by the time he was old enough to go and seek out
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 9, 2008
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                          Paul,

                          You asked: "Did Jesus know he was God incarnate? If he did know, when
                          did Jesus know this?"

                          Certainly by the time he was old enough to go and seek out John and get
                          baptized, Jesus knew who he was and what he had come to do. How young
                          he was when he first had, as a human being, a consciousness of his
                          divine identity I do not pretend to know. I would guess that he knew at
                          least by age twelve, based on his statement to his parents showing an
                          awareness that God was his true Father. He may have known well before
                          that time. We don't know.

                          In Christ's service,
                          Rob Bowman
                        • Paul Leonard
                          Hi Rob, Thanks for the reply. Your answer speaks of his knowing when he was Gods Son , in a unique way and I agree with his knowing such by his baptism at the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 9, 2008
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                            Hi Rob,

                            Thanks for the reply.

                            Your answer speaks of his knowing when he was "Gods Son", in a unique way and I agree with his knowing such by his baptism at the latest. However that is not really the question.

                            When did he know he was "God incarnate", which is  different thing?

                            That is the specific point being inquired about.

                            As a side point; When do wee find him clearly  speaking of this?


                            "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
                            Paul,

                            You asked: "Did Jesus know he was God incarnate? If he did know, when
                            did Jesus know this?"

                            Certainly by the time he was old enough to go and seek out John and get
                            baptized, Jesus knew who he was and what he had come to do. How young
                            he was when he first had, as a human being, a consciousness of his
                            divine identity I do not pretend to know. I would guess that he knew at
                            least by age twelve, based on his statement to his parents showing an
                            awareness that God was his true Father. He may have known well before
                            that time. We don't know.

                            In Christ's service,
                            Rob Bowman


                          • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
                            Paul, You wrote:
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 11, 2008
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                              Paul,

                              You wrote:

                              << Your answer speaks of his knowing when he was "Gods Son", in a
                              unique way and I agree with his knowing such by his baptism at the
                              latest. However that is not really the question.

                              When did he know he was "God incarnate", which is different thing?

                              That is the specific point being inquired about. >>

                              Ah, well, that's the issue, isn't it? When you say that Jesus
                              is "God's Son," you mean that he is the first creature that God made;
                              when I say that Jesus is "God's Son," I mean that he is the eternal,
                              infinite, divine Son, equally God with the Father.

                              I could ask you similarly specific questions, such as, When did Jesus
                              know that he was formerly Michael the archangel? Or, When did Jesus
                              know that he had been created as the first and greatest of God's
                              spirit sons?

                              You asked:

                              << As a side point; When do wee find him clearly speaking of this? >>

                              See above.

                              In Christ's service,
                              Rob Bowman
                            • mtillman@ec.rr.com
                              You said you could have asked When did Jesus know that he was formerly Michael the archangel? Do you mean to say that you think Jesus WAS Micharl the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 11, 2008
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                                You said you could have asked "When did Jesus know that he was formerly Michael the archangel?"
                                Do you mean to say that you think Jesus WAS Micharl the archangel? Or are you simply saying you could have asked a whole series of non-sensical questions, such as "When did Jesus know that he was formerly Michael the archangel?" is?
                                There are several reasons I think "When did Jesus know that he was formerly Michael the archangel?" _is_ non-sensical, in part because of the implication that Jesus was "God incarnate," which means he CAN'T also have been formerly Michael the archangel.
                                You also asked if Jesus was the first creature God created, but if he was created, how could he also be "equally God with the Father"? Can a god be created?
                                How would you conform this all with the Biblical verses where God said He does not have a son, and that there is no god beside Him? Eccl. 4:8, for example.

                                ---- "Robert M. Bowman wrote:
                                > Paul,
                                >
                                > You wrote:
                                >
                                > << Your answer speaks of his knowing when he was "Gods Son", in a
                                > unique way and I agree with his knowing such by his baptism at the
                                > latest. However that is not really the question.
                                >
                                > When did he know he was "God incarnate", which is different thing?
                                >
                                > That is the specific point being inquired about. >>
                                >
                                > Ah, well, that's the issue, isn't it? When you say that Jesus
                                > is "God's Son," you mean that he is the first creature that God made;
                                > when I say that Jesus is "God's Son," I mean that he is the eternal,
                                > infinite, divine Son, equally God with the Father.
                                >
                                > I could ask you similarly specific questions, such as, When did Jesus
                                > know that he was formerly Michael the archangel? Or, When did Jesus
                                > know that he had been created as the first and greatest of God's
                                > spirit sons?
                                >
                                > You asked:
                                >
                                > << As a side point; When do wee find him clearly speaking of this? >>
                                >
                                > See above.
                                >
                                > In Christ's service,
                                > Rob Bowman
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
                                Mr. Tillman, I don t think Jesus was Michael the archangel. However, Paul, who is a Jehovah s Witness, does think this. Ecclesiastes 4:8? What version are you
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 11, 2008
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                                  Mr. Tillman,

                                  I don't think Jesus was Michael the archangel. However, Paul, who is
                                  a Jehovah's Witness, does think this.

                                  Ecclesiastes 4:8? What version are you reading?

                                  Jesus is not *another* God, or a God "beside" the LORD. Again, if
                                  that is anyone's theology here, it would be Paul's theology, not mine
                                  (although Paul doesn't see it that way).

                                  In Christ's service,
                                  Rob Bowman



                                  --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, <mtillman@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > You said you could have asked "When did Jesus know that he was
                                  formerly Michael the archangel?"
                                  > Do you mean to say that you think Jesus WAS Micharl the archangel?
                                  Or are you simply saying you could have asked a whole series of non-
                                  sensical questions, such as "When did Jesus know that he was formerly
                                  Michael the archangel?" is?
                                  > There are several reasons I think "When did Jesus know that he was
                                  formerly Michael the archangel?" _is_ non-sensical, in part because
                                  of the implication that Jesus was "God incarnate," which means he
                                  CAN'T also have been formerly Michael the archangel.
                                  > You also asked if Jesus was the first creature God created, but if
                                  he was created, how could he also be "equally God with the Father"?
                                  Can a god be created?
                                  > How would you conform this all with the Biblical verses where God
                                  said He does not have a son, and that there is no god beside Him?
                                  Eccl. 4:8, for example.
                                  >
                                  > ---- "Robert M. Bowman wrote:
                                  > > Paul,
                                  > >
                                  > > You wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > << Your answer speaks of his knowing when he was "Gods Son", in a
                                  > > unique way and I agree with his knowing such by his baptism at
                                  the
                                  > > latest. However that is not really the question.
                                  > >
                                  > > When did he know he was "God incarnate", which is different
                                  thing?
                                  > >
                                  > > That is the specific point being inquired about. >>
                                  > >
                                  > > Ah, well, that's the issue, isn't it? When you say that Jesus
                                  > > is "God's Son," you mean that he is the first creature that God
                                  made;
                                  > > when I say that Jesus is "God's Son," I mean that he is the
                                  eternal,
                                  > > infinite, divine Son, equally God with the Father.
                                  > >
                                  > > I could ask you similarly specific questions, such as, When did
                                  Jesus
                                  > > know that he was formerly Michael the archangel? Or, When did
                                  Jesus
                                  > > know that he had been created as the first and greatest of God's
                                  > > spirit sons?
                                  > >
                                  > > You asked:
                                  > >
                                  > > << As a side point; When do wee find him clearly speaking of
                                  this? >>
                                  > >
                                  > > See above.
                                  > >
                                  > > In Christ's service,
                                  > > Rob Bowman
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Paul Leonard
                                  Hi Rob, OK, I see what you are saying. It is an inference from the position that you hold, based on what you believe is meant by God s Son . OK, that is what
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 12, 2008
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                                    Hi Rob,

                                    OK, I see what you are saying. It is an inference from the position that you hold, based on what you believe is meant by "God's Son". OK, that is what I was asking about and that answers it quite nicely.

                                    Thank you.

                                    "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
                                    Paul,

                                    You wrote:

                                    << Your answer speaks of his knowing when he was "Gods Son", in a
                                    unique way and I agree with his knowing such by his baptism at the
                                    latest. However that is not really the question.

                                    When did he know he was "God incarnate", which is different thing?

                                    That is the specific point being inquired about. >>

                                    Ah, well, that's the issue, isn't it? When you say that Jesus
                                    is "God's Son," you mean that he is the first creature that God made;
                                    when I say that Jesus is "God's Son," I mean that he is the eternal,
                                    infinite, divine Son, equally God with the Father.

                                    I could ask you similarly specific questions, such as, When did Jesus
                                    know that he was formerly Michael the archangel? Or, When did Jesus
                                    know that he had been created as the first and greatest of God's
                                    spirit sons?

                                    You asked:

                                    << As a side point; When do wee find him clearly speaking of this? >>

                                    See above.

                                    In Christ's service,
                                    Rob Bowman


                                  • Cheryl Young
                                    Iranian film director Nader Talebzadeh has an award at the 2007 Religion Film Festival in Italy for his movie Jesus spirit of God (Isa roh-e khoda). The
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 15, 2008
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                                      Iranian film director Nader Talebzadeh has an award at the 2007
                                      Religion Film Festival in Italy for his movie "Jesus spirit of God"
                                      (Isa roh-e khoda). The movie details the Islamic perspective of
                                      Jesus that he was not the son of God.
                                      http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=105509

                                      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard
                                      <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Rob,
                                      >
                                      > OK, I see what you are saying. It is an inference from the position
                                      that you hold, based on what you believe is meant by "God's Son". OK,
                                      that is what I was asking about and that answers it quite nicely.
                                      >
                                      > Thank you.
                                      >
                                      > "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons@...>
                                      wrote: Paul,
                                      >
                                      > You wrote:
                                      >
                                      > << Your answer speaks of his knowing when he was "Gods Son", in a
                                      > unique way and I agree with his knowing such by his baptism at the
                                      > latest. However that is not really the question.
                                      >
                                      > When did he know he was "God incarnate", which is different thing?
                                      >
                                      > That is the specific point being inquired about. >>
                                      >
                                      > Ah, well, that's the issue, isn't it? When you say that Jesus
                                      > is "God's Son," you mean that he is the first creature that God
                                      made;
                                      > when I say that Jesus is "God's Son," I mean that he is the
                                      eternal,
                                      > infinite, divine Son, equally God with the Father.
                                      >
                                      > I could ask you similarly specific questions, such as, When did
                                      Jesus
                                      > know that he was formerly Michael the archangel? Or, When did
                                      Jesus
                                      > know that he had been created as the first and greatest of God's
                                      > spirit sons?
                                      >
                                      > You asked:
                                      >
                                      > << As a side point; When do wee find him clearly speaking of this?
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > See above.
                                      >
                                      > In Christ's service,
                                      > Rob Bowman
                                      >
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