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Re: [biblicalapologetics] "Say nothing to any man"

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  • mtillman@ec.rr.com
    Paul Leonard wrote, ... Pardon me, but what does A.P. mean or stand for? ... Not necessarily the right answer. The rejection of a false prophet and false
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 16, 2007
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      Paul Leonard wrote,

      >> A.P. <<

      Pardon me, but what does "A.P." mean or stand for?

      >> Considering that in Sinai 3000 died for false activities with the golden calf, 20,000 plus for disrespecting Jehovah's provisions re "meat", a n entire generation for lack of faith, not to mention the removal of the Temple and people from Judea for 70 years, the nearly 2000 year desolation of Judea and the Jewish system must be for something a bit more involved. Like maybe killing the Messiah God's son? <<

      Not necessarily the right answer. The rejection of a false prophet and false messiah would explain why Judea was granted a FURTHER 30+ years before they were over-run by blood-thirsty Romans.

      >> Consider:
      No return to the land given by God, in total… No Temple… A Moslem temple on the temple Mount… No Urim an Thummim… No Ark… [… see (1) below…] No official genealogy scrolls to establish properly who is who (Ezra 2)… No Kingdom… No High Priest… No valid Priesthood… [… see (2) below…]… No tribal distinction/inheritance… No peace… <<

      There is no reason to believe this will always be the state of things; and in fact the Bible promises that it will NOT always be the state of things.
      Building the Third Temple in Jerusalem (e.g., Ezek 37:26-28);
      In-gathering of Jewish exiles to Israel/ Inheritance (e.g., Is 11:12):
      Reunification of Judah and Israel into one people (e.g., Ezek 37:22):
      World peace (e.g., Is 2:4):
      Universal knowledge of G-d (e.g., Isaiah 11:9; 40:5; 66:23; and Zephaniah 3:9);
      Universal knowledge of G-d with ISRAEL (not Christians) being the teachers of what God wants us to do (e.g. Isaiah 2:3, Ezekiel 37:24);
      Kingship/kingdom (e.g. Daniel 7:14).

      >> No obedience to the Law in most things, such as the 70th year sabbath and the cancellation of all debts, etc.<<

      That is a statement that is impossible to verify as true. However, I happen to know:
      a) that most of the Commandments are not for all Israel, nor is it possible for any one Israelite to keep all of them,
      b) that many of the Commandments are effective ONLY in the Land of Israel,
      c) Many of the Commandments are in effect ONLY when there is a Temple on God’s Holy Mount, and
      d) Many Jews DO keep all the commandments they are called upon by the Covenant they have with their God to keep. That are called, “the pious ones” or “Chassidim” in Hebrew. They even keep the Shmittah Year, or the 7th Year Sabbath, when no fields are to be planted or gathered and no other work is to be done.
      e) The Rabbis say that merely learning HOW to fulfill the Commandments (such as the offering of sacrifices), when it is impossible to fulfill them, is accounted by God as if one HAD fulfilled the Law, as if (for example) they HAD offered the sacrifice.

      [… from above (1)…]
      >>> No original writings of the prophets, Moses, etc. <<<

      That will not necessarily be the case forever, either. The Scriptures say that an original Torah Scroll, copied from the Tablets, was placed inside or beside the Ark of the Covenant, so when that is found, the scroll will be there, as well. But scrolls not kept there have all deteriorated beyond usefulness over time, so they are retired from service and buried with reverence. But, also as the Scriptures says, there has been a long tradition of making letter-for-letter copies of the Torah Scrolls, and the Masoretic Text is the result of the care with which the Jews have protected the Torah.

      [… from above (2)…]
      >> No Sacrifices <<

      a) Sacrifices are not needed by God in order for God to forgive sins, nor does God want sacrifices not offered properly or in the proper spirit of repentance.
      b) Sacrifices for sins WILL be re-instituted in the messianic era, (see Ezekiel chapters 43-46, for example).

      Rev M Tillman
    • Paul Leonard
      Hi, mtillman@ec.rr.com wrote: Paul Leonard wrote, ... Pardon me, but what does A.P. mean or stand for? My web name is
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 17, 2007
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        Hi,



        mtillman@... wrote:
        Paul Leonard wrote,

        >> A.P. <<

        Pardon me, but what does "A.P." mean or stand for?

        My web name is "anotherpaul". NOT a reference to the apostle.

        I will respond to the balance tonight.

        >> Considering that in Sinai 3000 died for false activities with the golden calf, 20,000 plus for disrespecting Jehovah's provisions re "meat", a n entire generation for lack of faith, not to mention the removal of the Temple and people from Judea for 70 years, the nearly 2000 year desolation of Judea and the Jewish system must be for something a bit more involved. Like maybe killing the Messiah God's son? <<

        Not necessarily the right answer. The rejection of a false prophet and false messiah would explain why Judea was granted a FURTHER 30+ years before they were over-run by blood-thirsty Romans.

        >> Consider:
        No return to the land given by God, in total… No Temple… A Moslem temple on the temple Mount… No Urim an Thummim… No Ark… [… see (1) below…] No official genealogy scrolls to establish properly who is who (Ezra 2)… No Kingdom… No High Priest… No valid Priesthood… [… see (2) below…]… No tribal distinction/ inheritance… No peace… <<

        There is no reason to believe this will always be the state of things; and in fact the Bible promises that it will NOT always be the state of things.
        Building the Third Temple in Jerusalem (e.g., Ezek 37:26-28);
        In-gathering of Jewish exiles to Israel/ Inheritance (e.g., Is 11:12):
        Reunification of Judah and Israel into one people (e.g., Ezek 37:22):
        World peace (e.g., Is 2:4):
        Universal knowledge of G-d (e.g., Isaiah 11:9; 40:5; 66:23; and Zephaniah 3:9);
        Universal knowledge of G-d with ISRAEL (not Christians) being the teachers of what God wants us to do (e.g. Isaiah 2:3, Ezekiel 37:24);
        Kingship/kingdom (e.g. Daniel 7:14).

        >> No obedience to the Law in most things, such as the 70th year sabbath and the cancellation of all debts, etc.<<

        That is a statement that is impossible to verify as true. However, I happen to know:
        a) that most of the Commandments are not for all Israel, nor is it possible for any one Israelite to keep all of them,
        b) that many of the Commandments are effective ONLY in the Land of Israel,
        c) Many of the Commandments are in effect ONLY when there is a Temple on God’s Holy Mount, and
        d) Many Jews DO keep all the commandments they are called upon by the Covenant they have with their God to keep. That are called, “the pious ones” or “Chassidim” in Hebrew. They even keep the Shmittah Year, or the 7th Year Sabbath, when no fields are to be planted or gathered and no other work is to be done.
        e) The Rabbis say that merely learning HOW to fulfill the Commandments (such as the offering of sacrifices), when it is impossible to fulfill them, is accounted by God as if one HAD fulfilled the Law, as if (for example) they HAD offered the sacrifice.

        [… from above (1)…]
        >>> No original writings of the prophets, Moses, etc. <<<

        That will not necessarily be the case forever, either. The Scriptures say that an original Torah Scroll, copied from the Tablets, was placed inside or beside the Ark of the Covenant, so when that is found, the scroll will be there, as well. But scrolls not kept there have all deteriorated beyond usefulness over time, so they are retired from service and buried with reverence. But, also as the Scriptures says, there has been a long tradition of making letter-for-letter copies of the Torah Scrolls, and the Masoretic Text is the result of the care with which the Jews have protected the Torah.

        [… from above (2)…]
        >> No Sacrifices <<

        a) Sacrifices are not needed by God in order for God to forgive sins, nor does God want sacrifices not offered properly or in the proper spirit of repentance.
        b) Sacrifices for sins WILL be re-instituted in the messianic era, (see Ezekiel chapters 43-46, for example).

        Rev M Tillman

      • wglmp
        Thank you for your input, and I ll take it into consideration. However, I am reminded of the verse that says that, With God, nothing is impossible. That
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 17, 2007
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          Thank you for your input, and I'll take it into consideration.
          However, I am reminded of the verse that says that, "With God,
          nothing is impossible." That being true (and I'm sure you'll agree
          that it is) it seems that Jesus (if Jesus was God) could have taken
          on any and all comers at any time, and even all the time, without
          needing to worry about "being hard pressed." He (Jesus), if he was
          God, should not have needed to sleep, for the Bible says, "He (God)
          neither sleeps nor slumbers." (Psalm 121:4)

          Rev. M Tillman

          --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "david murphy"
          <slvrwlf037@...> wrote:

          > >
          > Please indulge a young man and a new member of this group. I
          > believe, (and I cannot substantiate this, it is my opinion only)
          > that the reason Jesus asked people not to broadcast His miracles
          was
          > simply so that he could minister to people on an intimate one-on-
          one
          > level before "the multitudes began to press in on them so that they
          > could not even eat a meal." As word of His miracles spread, I
          > suspect Jesus began to feel much as Moses did in Sinai; i.e., "the
          > burden of this people is too heavy for me to carry alone..." and
          so,
          > in characteristic Jesus fashion, He spends all night in prayer to
          > get God's mind on the solution. And lo and behold, he comes down
          > from the mountain and chooses the twelve apostles to assist Him in
          > His mission. As many people as were there to receive healing and
          > restoration from Jesus, I suspect that many were there as the
          > Devil's agents seeking only experience and thrill and ultimately
          > trying to weigh Jesus down by sheer weight of numbers. We have many
          > parallels in modern ministry today, do we not? As a minister
          > yourself I'm certain you know of people who are a continual drain
          on
          > your spiritual resources, people who simply keep dealing with the
          > same issues over and over again and never progress to maturity.
          > These hangers-on siphon away a minister's valuable time and energy
          > which might be better utilized in assisting those who seriously
          need
          > help and want to change, or are walking in faith and maturity and
          > need a minister's encouragement or counsel in matters of great
          > delicacy or import. Jesus was wise, and knew this, and I suspect
          > that He attempted to delay the inevitable "enemy coming in like a
          > flood" as long as possible.
          >
        • david murphy
          ... taken ... (God) ... Jesus was God in the flesh, however, and subject to all the viccissitudes and limitations that being enfleshed entails. The Bible
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 19, 2007
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            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "wglmp" <mtillman@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Thank you for your input, and I'll take it into consideration.
            > However, I am reminded of the verse that says that, "With God,
            > nothing is impossible." That being true (and I'm sure you'll agree
            > that it is) it seems that Jesus (if Jesus was God) could have
            taken
            > on any and all comers at any time, and even all the time, without
            > needing to worry about "being hard pressed." He (Jesus), if he was
            > God, should not have needed to sleep, for the Bible says, "He
            (God)
            > neither sleeps nor slumbers." (Psalm 121:4)
            >
            > Rev. M Tillman
            Jesus was God "in the flesh," however, and subject to all the
            viccissitudes and limitations that being enfleshed entails. The
            Bible also says (of God) "Do I drink the blood of bulls and goats?
            If I were hungry I would not tell you, for I own the cattle on a
            thousand hills. . ." Does that mean Jesus should not eat as well,
            because He was God? In special circumstances, God granted Him grace
            to do supernatural phenomenon (such as walking on water) but He
            still had to eat, sleep, drink, go to the bathroom and all the other
            things we humans have to do. How else then could he be a "high
            priest that sympathizes with our weaknesses, for he was tempted
            likewise in all ways as we are, yet was without sin." Jesus knew
            what it was like to be hungry, thirsty, tired, cold, and helpless.
            God could take on "any and all comers" all the time, as you put it,
            bcause God is pure Spirit, and therefore does not sleep, or eat, or
            use the bathroom. Why? Because if He slept, that would entail a need
            for something other than Himself to be His power source; the same
            with food. God is sufficient in and of Himself for all things, at
            all times, for all time. Jesus, however, still had to walk around
            the dusty old Earth just like the rest of us mortals, albeit
            empowered by the Holy Spirit.
          • wglmp
            Then that STILL doesn t explain why Jesus (primarily, according to Mark) told from a few individuals to crowds of people to keep a secret that he should have
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 21, 2007
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              Then that STILL doesn't explain why Jesus (primarily, according to
              Mark) told from a few individuals to crowds of people to keep a
              secret that he should have KNOWN couldn't be kept by such numbers of
              people.
              But Jesus was NOT "God in the flesh," because God is not a man, and
              doesn't change, so He never was a man, and never WILL be a man. This
              is an important thing for the Prophets to teach, because God knew
              that a man might come along and try to change His (God's) Law even
              falsely by claiming to be a prophet (see Deut 18:20, for example),
              and when all else failed, that man would resort to the claim that he
              WAS God, so really whatever 'new' thing he's teaching now is 'just
              the same' as the 'old' thing that had been taught in olden times. So
              God warned Israel NOT think that God was (or ever will become) a man.
              He (God) pointed out that when they (Israel) heard God speaking to
              them, they saw no form. (Deuteronomy 4:15)
              It's not even fair to say that Jesus was 'the son of God'
              because "The Lord, He is God -- there is none else beside him"
              (Deuteronomy 4:35). Also, Eccles. 4:8 says, "There is one, and there
              is no second; yea, he has neither son nor brother, and there is no
              end to all his toil; neither is his eye sated from wealth." "The land
              and the fullness thereof are the Lord's," according to Psalm 24:1, so
              surely God is wealthy, yet Jesus didn't even have "a place to lay his
              head." (Luke 9:58)

              And Jesus WAS subject to "viccissitudes and limitations that being
              enfleshed entails." For example, Jesus apparently ate and drank (I
              don't have a chapter and verse citation at my fingertips, but I
              believe it to be true), and he slept (Mark 4:37-39; Matthew 8:24-26;
              Luke 8:23-24). What's more, he sweated blood in the Garden of
              Gathsemene, and bled when his flesh was cut by the lashes. That being
              true, it's not too far off the mark to believe Jesus suffered other
              bodily accidents. Finally (the 'nail in the coffin,' you might say),
              he died. Since God can't die, Jesus wasn't God.

              Rev M Tillman

              --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "david murphy"
              <slvrwlf037@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "wglmp" <mtillman@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Thank you for your input, and I'll take it into consideration.
              > > However, I am reminded of the verse that says that, "With God,
              > > nothing is impossible." That being true (and I'm sure you'll
              agree
              > > that it is) it seems that Jesus (if Jesus was God) could have
              > taken
              > > on any and all comers at any time, and even all the time, without
              > > needing to worry about "being hard pressed." He (Jesus), if he
              was
              > > God, should not have needed to sleep, for the Bible says, "He
              > (God)
              > > neither sleeps nor slumbers." (Psalm 121:4)
              > >
              > > Rev. M Tillman
              > Jesus was God "in the flesh," however, and subject to all the
              > viccissitudes and limitations that being enfleshed entails. The
              > Bible also says (of God) "Do I drink the blood of bulls and goats?
              > If I were hungry I would not tell you, for I own the cattle on a
              > thousand hills. . ." Does that mean Jesus should not eat as well,
              > because He was God? In special circumstances, God granted Him grace
              > to do supernatural phenomenon (such as walking on water) but He
              > still had to eat, sleep, drink, go to the bathroom and all the
              other
              > things we humans have to do. How else then could he be a "high
              > priest that sympathizes with our weaknesses, for he was tempted
              > likewise in all ways as we are, yet was without sin." Jesus knew
              > what it was like to be hungry, thirsty, tired, cold, and helpless.
              > God could take on "any and all comers" all the time, as you put it,
              > bcause God is pure Spirit, and therefore does not sleep, or eat, or
              > use the bathroom. Why? Because if He slept, that would entail a
              need
              > for something other than Himself to be His power source; the same
              > with food. God is sufficient in and of Himself for all things, at
              > all times, for all time. Jesus, however, still had to walk around
              > the dusty old Earth just like the rest of us mortals, albeit
              > empowered by the Holy Spirit.
              >
            • wglmp
              ... asked/said ... punishment now.
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 22, 2007
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                --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard
                <anotherpaul2001@...> asked/said

                >>A.P. Then what did they do that was so bad it is still suffering
                punishment now.<<

                The majority stopped following the Torah as it is/was explained by
                the Pharisees. Some (most?) even fell into the idolatry of the
                nations around them. The 10 Northern Tribes fell away so far that
                they lost their identity as Children of Israel. Most Jews today are
                not observant, and those who are not observant are at a higher risk
                of their children not being identified as Jews at all. (Reform
                and "reconstructionist" Jews aren't Jewish within three or four
                generations.) Most of the time, this happens through intermarriage,
                but the rest of the time it's caused by apostasy.

                >>Your answer seems to be avoiding the real issue. What do we have a
                record of that is equal to ALL that they did before, so as to suffer
                2000 years of destruction??????<<

                I don't understand your question. Are you asking for a complete list
                of every sin of the Children of Israel? Good luck finding such a
                thing! However, if that's really what you're asking for, then you
                might go to a Rabbi and ask for the list the Jews provide on the Day
                of Atonement, where they say, "we have done this, and we have done
                that," etc. If you don't live near an Orthodox Rabbi, look for a
                Jewish Prayer book (Called a "Siddur") for the Yom Kippur Service.
                However, it's not so much what Israel DID, but what they have failed
                to do that is keeping them in exile. If you are asking me for what
                would end this era of dispersion, I would say that, if Israel kept
                two Sabbaths in a row, their exile would soon be near an end.

                >>A.P. In your view. In the view of others those prophecies have a
                spiritual rather than a literal fulfillment. Considering that Judaism
                is still under God's disfavor due to their still lacking obedience or
                any way to be obedient to the law, it is unlikely you are correct.<<

                That's looking at it the wrong way around. The fact that the Jews
                survive to this day (when the nations around them have all long since
                disappeared, shows that they are STILL in God's favor. It's the
                fulfillment of a Biblical prophecy, in fact.
                Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things
                have come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set
                before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations,
                where the Lord your G-d has driven you, [2] And shall return to the
                Lord your G-d, and shall obey his voice according to all that I
                command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and
                with all your soul; [3] That then the Lord your G-d will turn your
                captivity, and have compassion upon you, and will return and gather
                you from all the nations, where the Lord your G-d has scattered you.

                See also Levi 26:44, 45; Deut 4:31; I Kings 11:39; II Kings 14:27;
                Psalm 89:30-37; 94:14; Isaiah 48:9-11; 49:14-16; 54:7-10; Jer 4:27;
                5:10, 18; 30:11; 32:37-42; 33:19-26; 46:28; Lam 3:31, 32; Ezek 11:13-
                21; 16:60-63; 36:16-38; Hosea 11:8, 9; and Amos 9:8-9.
                The continued existence of the Jews defies the notion that Israel
                is "under God's disfavor".

                >>A.P. They were for ALL Israel,<<

                You have missed my point, apparently. Even today, with civil laws,
                nobody who is not charged with following a law can be punished for
                not following that law. For example, only those who grow tobacco must
                pay a tax for growing tobacco. Nobody has EVER been convicted of
                failing to pay the tobacco-grower's tax if they had not grown
                tobacco. Likewise, God does not punish the average Israelite for
                failing to write out a Torah Scroll just because the King of Israel
                is commanded to write out a Torah Scroll.
                Nowhere in the Torah does it say that all Israel must keep all of the
                Torah's Laws. Nor could it.

                >>No one could keep them but all were to try to not excuse a lack of
                obedience in total, by claiming a lack of ability<<

                That's not making sense to me at all. Nowhere in the Torah does it
                say that Israel must keep all of the Torah's Laws, so no excuse(s)
                were even needed for not keeping those with which a person was not
                charged.
                No man was ever required to make an offering after childbirth. No man
                was ever required to go to a mikva after menstruation. To think that
                a man would be punished for failing to follow those commandments
                shows a lack of understanding of those Laws. So no "excuse" was
                needed to be given by a man to explain why he had not kept them. It's
                just silliness to claim he would need an excuse!

                <<b) that many of the Commandments are effective ONLY in the Land of
                Israel,

                >>A.P. Oh, and which ones were those? Remember if in another land
                they were still to travel to Jerusalem and worship according to the
                Law there. No exceptions.<<

                The Shmittah Year is a prime example of a Law that applies only to
                those Israelites who live in Israel`s ancestral homeland.

                <<c) Many of the Commandments are in effect ONLY when there is a
                Temple on God's Holy Mount, and

                >>A.P. Oh, and where is this said in Scripture. Note in God's law not
                written in mens efforts to avoid it.<<

                It says that, when you bring a sacrifice, "you will bring it to the
                place where I will cause My Name to be." That place is the Temple
                Mount, in Jerusalem. See Levi. 4:5-6, Deut 12:5, 11, 14, 18, 21, 26.

                >>In addition what laws do they really keep? some laws on
                cleanliness, but not of sacrifice and worship.<<

                That's a good one. There are many Jews who keep the Laws they are
                charged with keeping, as well as they are able to. They are
                called "tzaddikim" or "chassidim." (And some Gentiles keep the Laws
                they are supposed to keep.) They also DO keep the Laws of sacrifice
                and worship.
                The book of Jeremiah tells the story of how the people of Judah
                sinned, and as punishment for their actions, were taken into the
                Babylonian Exile. This exile lasted the seventy years. The sin was
                idolatry, the people repented through their punishment of exile.
                However, their repentance occurred without the Holy Temple. There
                were no blood sacrifices in this seventy-year period. Such a heinous
                sin as this, and it does not require the shedding of blood on the
                alter? Animal sacrifices are obviously not required for repentance.
                All that is required is that our hearts turn to G-d and His Word.
                Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears
                hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not
                required.
                Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast
                fallen by thine iniquity. [2] Take with you words, and turn to the
                LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us]
                graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
                Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]:
                thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of G-d
                [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, thou
                wilt not despise.
                Psalms 69:30 I will praise the name of G-d with a song, and will
                magnify him with thanksgiving. [31] [This] also shall please the LORD
                better than an ox [or] bullock that hath horns and hoofs.
                Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the
                LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] His delight. [9] The way of
                the wicked [is] an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that
                followeth after righteousness.
                Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear
                of the LORD men depart from evil.
                Isaiah 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not?
                wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge?
                Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your
                labours.
                Isaiah 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to
                afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to
                spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and
                an acceptable day to the LORD?
                2 Chronicles 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I
                command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among
                my people; [14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall
                humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their
                wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their
                sin, and will heal their land.
                And the Lord agreed.
                Therefore, the earnestly offered prayers of the Jews DO fulfill the
                Laws concerning sacrifice and worship.

                >>A.P. OH and these rabbi's are right why?<<

                Because God says they are right, and whatever they tell us, we are to
                do.
                Deut 17:8. If a matter eludes you in judgment, between blood and
                blood, between judgment and judgment, or between lesion and lesion,
                words of dispute in your cities, then you shall rise and go up to the
                place the Lord, your God, chooses. 9. And you shall come to the
                Levitic kohanim and to the judge who will be in those days, and you
                shall inquire, and they will tell you the words of judgment. 10. And
                you shall do according to the word they tell you, from the place the
                Lord will choose, and you shall observe to do according to all they
                instruct you. 11. According to the law they instruct you and
                according to the judgment they say to you, you shall do; you shall
                not divert from the word they tell you, either right or left. 12. And
                the man who acts intentionally, not obeying the kohen who stands
                there to serve the Lord, your God, or to the judge that man shall
                die, and you shall abolish evil from Israel. 13. And all the people
                shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer act wantonly.

                >>because it agrees with scripture or it is all they can say to
                avoid admitting their failure???<<

                They don't have to avoid admitting when they are in error. God
                allowed that that might happen, and there was a way to correct the
                erroneous decision(s) of the Rabbis. But those decisions still have
                to be followed UNTIL they are deemed to be in error; you can`t just
                claim they are in error and refuse to follow the judgements of the
                Rabbis on your own say-so.

                >>A.P. Yep, but even the Masoretic text was admittedly tampered with
                by the Sopherim.<<

                Says who? Where is that written?

                <<b) Sacrifices for sins WILL be re-instituted in the messianic era,
                (see Ezekiel chapters 43-46, for example).>>

                >>A.P. Humm, looks symbolic to me, not literal. But each can believe
                as they wish.<<

                It's not symbolic, however much you might think it is. Each may NOT
                believe as they wish, but must follow the teachings of the Rabbis
                (that is, if they want to be following the Word of God.)

                >>What is true will come from those NOT under condemnation NOW and
                for the last 2000 years.<<

                Um, what? What is true HAS ALREADY COME to us FROM THE JEWS!
                Deut 30:11-18. It's not too hard, not is it far off, but it's RIGHT
                HERE, in your hands, that YOU MAY DO IT. [Paraphrased by me.]
                So, we have what God wants us to do.
                We understand it ONLY through what His designated experts (the
                Rabbis) say it means.
                We must do as they say.
                Failure to do as they say will result in our being CUT OFF from God's
                favor, whether as Jews or as Gentiles.
                We MUST NOT accept the teachings of anyone else other than the
                rabbis, even if he claims to be a prophet, and even if he perform
                signs and miracles that DO come to pass! Dt 13:2-4. We are NOT to
                listen to him, nor be afraid of him or anything he says. But he is to
                be put to death so that his evil will be cut off from the land.
                ___________
                That was in response to the following:

                >> Considering that in Sinai 3000 died for false activities with the
                golden calf, 20,000 plus for disrespecting Jehovah's provisions
                re "meat", a n entire generation for lack of faith, not to mention
                the removal of the Temple and people from Judea for 70 years, the
                nearly 2000 year desolation of Judea and the Jewish system must be
                for something a bit more involved. Like maybe killing the Messiah
                God's son? <<

                Not necessarily the right answer. The rejection of a false prophet
                and false messiah would explain why Judea was granted a FURTHER 30+
                years before they were over-run by blood-thirsty Romans.

                A.P. Then what did they do that was so bad it is still suffering
                punishment now. Your answer seems to be avoiding the real issue. What
                do we have a record of that is equal to ALL that they did before, so
                as to suffer 2000 years of destruction??????

                >> Consider:
                No return to the land given by God, in total… No Temple… A Moslem
                temple on the temple Mount… No Urim an Thummim… No Ark… […
                see (1) below…] No official genealogy scrolls to establish properly
                who is who (Ezra 2)… No Kingdom… No High Priest… No valid
                Priesthood… [… see (2) below…]… No tribal
                distinction/inheritance… No peace… <<

                There is no reason to believe this will always be the state of
                things; and in fact the Bible promises that it will NOT always be the
                state of things.

                >> No obedience to the Law in most things, such as the 70th year
                sabbath and the cancellation of all debts, etc.<<

                A.P. In your view. In the view of others those prophecies have a
                spiritual rather than a literal fulfillment. Considering that Judaism
                is still under God's disfavor due to their still lacking obedience or
                any way to be obedient to the law, it is unlikely you are correct.

                >>That is a statement that is impossible to verify as true. However,
                I happen to know:
                a) that most of the Commandments are not for all Israel, nor is it
                possible for any one Israelite to keep all of them,

                A.P. They were for ALL Israel, No one could keep them but all were to
                try to not excuse a lack of obedience in total, by claiming a lack of
                ability


                <<b) that many of the Commandments are effective ONLY in the Land of
                Israel,

                A.P. Oh, and which ones were those? Remember if in another land they
                were still to travel to Jerusalem and worship according to the Law
                there. No exceptions.

                <<c) Many of the Commandments are in effect ONLY when there is a
                Temple on God’s Holy Mount, and

                A.P. Oh, and where is this said in Scripture. Note in God's law not
                written in mens efforts to avoid it.

                <<d) Many Jews DO keep all the commandments they are called upon by
                the Covenant they have with their God to keep. That are called,
                “the pious ones” or “Chassidim” in Hebrew. They even keep the
                Shmittah Year, or the 7th Year Sabbath, when no fields are to be
                planted or gathered and no other work is to be done.

                A.P. Humm, you just said above that no one can keep them all. So they
                do not do so. In addition what laws do they really keep? some laws on
                cleanliness, but not of sacrifice and worship.

                <<e) The Rabbis say that merely learning HOW to fulfill the
                Commandments (such as the offering of sacrifices), when it is
                impossible to fulfill them, is accounted by God as if one HAD
                fulfilled the Law, as if (for example) they HAD offered the sacrifice.

                A.P. OH and these rabbi's are right why? because it agrees with
                scripture or it is all they can say to avoid admitting their
                failure???

                [… from above (1)…]
                >>> No original writings of the prophets, Moses, etc. <<<

                <<That will not necessarily be the case forever, either. The
                Scriptures say that an original Torah Scroll, copied from the
                Tablets, was placed inside or beside the Ark of the Covenant, so when
                that is found, the scroll will be there, as well. But scrolls not
                kept there have all deteriorated beyond usefulness over time, so they
                are retired from service and buried with reverence. But, also as the
                Scriptures says, there has been a long tradition of making letter-for-
                letter copies of the Torah Scrolls, and the Masoretic Text is the
                result of the care with which the Jews have protected the Torah.

                A.P. Yep, but even the Masoretic text was admittedly tampered with by
                the Sopherim. I agree not a big issue to me, but of no value in this
                issue.

                [… from above (2)…]
                >> No Sacrifices <<

                a) Sacrifices are not needed by God in order for God to forgive sins,
                nor does God want sacrifices not offered properly or in the proper
                spirit of repentance.

                A.P. OH and again where is this stated in the Law as a reason for NOT
                offering sacrifices? Sounds like an excuse for NOT obeying to me.
                Remember obedience is BETTER than sacrifice not a substitute in some
                areas.

                b) Sacrifices for sins WILL be re-instituted in the messianic era,
                (see Ezekiel chapters 43-46, for example).

                A.P. Humm, looks symbolic to me, not literal. But each can believe as
                they wish. What is true will come from those NOT under condemnation
                NOW and for the last 2000 years.
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