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"Say nothing to any man"

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  • wglmp
    The New Testament (especially Mark s Gospel) has a number of instances where Jesus gives an order not to tell anyone what they know or have seen; such as: When
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 14, 2007
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      The New Testament (especially Mark's Gospel) has a number of
      instances where Jesus gives an order not to tell anyone what they
      know or have seen; such as:

      When Jesus cleansed a leper (Mark 1:44);
      "And [Jesus] saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man…"

      When Jesus healed the multitudes (Mark 3:12)
      "And he [Jesus] straitly charged them that they should not make him
      known..."

      When the disciples came down from the mountain after the
      Transfiguration (Mark 9:9).
      "And as they came down from the mountain, he [Jesus] charged them
      that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son
      of man were risen from the dead."

      Jesus raised Jairus' daughter from death then gave strict orders to
      keep it secret. (Mark 5:42-43)
      "And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age
      of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.
      And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; …."

      Clearly, such acts would have been impossible to hide. So let's just
      recap what Jesus was trying to hide – according to the author of Mark:

      · A leper that is no longer a leper – healed – skin no longer
      peeling off;

      · A multitude – many, many people – who are no longer sick,
      afflicted or injured; and

      · A dead 12-year old girl who is once again walking down the
      streets of her community.

      Was Mark stupid? Did he think Jesus would try to hide these acts? How
      can this be explained in light of Proverbs 8:8-9, which reads:
      "All the words of My mouth are with righteousness; Nothing crooked or
      perverse is in them. They are all plain to him who understands, and
      right to those who find knowledge"?

      How was the leper to follow the Commandment of God, where it says
      that a man cured of leprosy had to go to the Temple and make a
      sacrifice to God? How is going to explain himself when he comes to
      the Priests to make such a sacrifice, if he can't tell them why he's
      making it? How is a multitude supposed to keep a secret? Had Jesus
      never heard anything like what inspired Ben Franklin to say, "Three
      may keep a secret, if two of them are dead"? Was the 12-year old,
      when neighbors and friends commented about her being dead, just going
      to say, "I got better" and expect them to believe it? Sounds like
      something from a Monty Python movie.

      The author of Mark apparently wants us to believe that Jesus
      supposedly told his disciples that he speaks in parables so the
      people will not understand the word of God, which he openly spoke to
      them. Why would Jesus withhold the word of God from the people when
      the whole idea of Jesus' ministry was to get the holy message out to
      as many people as possible?

      "And he [Jesus] said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the
      mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all
      these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not
      perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any
      time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven
      them." (Mark 4:11-12 KJV)

      Did God tell His prophets of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) one thing and
      later forget; only to tell Mark something else?

      How can this be explained?

      Knowing your Creator is what one is supposed to do! God is not to be
      a big secret. A person must KNOW God with a firm and perfect
      knowledge. The Torah (the SOURCE DOCUMENT) says,
      "And you shall know today, and set it firmly in your heart, that
      Hashem is the G-d in heaven above and on earth below, there is no
      other." (Deuteronomy 4.39)

      We are commanded to KNOW firmly. Some in Christianity maintain that
      Jesus is saying to keep a secret! Why don't these Christians question
      this? If Jesus was God, what was he hiding, or why was he so afraid?
      Christians should ask; "How could God be afraid of anything?"

      How can we ALL know of God, if God was secretive? God was not shy
      when he told Isaiah that the entire earth will have full knowledge of
      Him.
      "For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the
      waters cover the sea" (Isaiah 11:9)

      I believe the reason Judea was overrun by Rome and the Temple and
      Jerusalem destroyed is that the Jews were lax in explaining to
      Gentiles that they (the Gentiles) had/have a Covenant with God, and
      that they (the Gentiles) must uphold their end of that covenant. That
      Jonah was sent to Nineveh shows that the Ninevites were under that
      Covenant, and were about to be punished under the terms of that
      Covenant. They (the Ninevites) heard Jonah's words (Jonah 3:5-6),
      repented of their sins, and were forgiven by God so that the
      destruction He had promised was averted. Jonah 3:10.

      Why would Jesus withhold important information? Why would he WANT to
      doom some, "lest their sins be forgiven them"? (Mark 4:12) How does
      this make Jesus any better than Jonah, who also didn't want to tell
      some that they needed to "get right with God" as the saying goes?
      (Jonah 4) Like Jonah, it seems, according to Mark, that Jesus was
      without pity or mercy. Was this why Jesus was compared to Jonah,
      rather than that Jonah spent three days in the belly of a fish, while
      Jesus spent three days in a tomb?

      Rev M Tillman
    • Paul Leonard
      Hi, wglmp wrote: I believe the reason Judea was overrun by Rome and the Temple and Jerusalem destroyed is that the Jews were lax in
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 14, 2007
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        Hi,

        wglmp <mtillman@...> wrote:

        I believe the reason Judea was overrun by Rome and the Temple and
        Jerusalem destroyed is that the Jews were lax in explaining to
        Gentiles that they (the Gentiles) had/have a Covenant with God, and
        that they (the Gentiles) must uphold their end of that covenant. That
        Jonah was sent to Nineveh shows that the Ninevites were under that
        Covenant, and were about to be punished under the terms of that
        Covenant. They (the Ninevites) heard Jonah's words (Jonah 3:5-6),
        repented of their sins, and were forgiven by God so that the
        destruction He had promised was averted. Jonah 3:10.

        A.P. Considering that in Sinai 3000 died for false activities with the golden calf, 20,000 plus for disrespecting Jehovah's provisions re "meat", a n entire  generation for lack of faith, not to mention the removal of the Temple and people from Judea  for 70 years, the nearly 2000 year desolation of Judea and the Jewish system must be for something a bit more involved. Like maybe killing the Messiah God's son?
        Consider:

        No return to the land given by God, in total.
        No Temple
        A Moslem temple on the temple Mount

        No Urim an Thummim
        No Ark
        No original writings of the prophets, Moses, etc.
        No official genealogy scrolls to establish properly who is who (Ezra 2)
        No Kingdom
        No High Priest
        No valid Priesthood
        No Sacrifices
        No tribal distinction/inheritance
        No peace
        No obedience to the Law in most things, such as the 70th year sabbath and the cancellation of all debts, etc.
        This is a brief list.

        I suspect the reason for this level of destruction is for far more than anything they had ever done before and in fact worse that the total of all they had done before.

        .


      • mtillman@ec.rr.com
        Paul Leonard wrote, ... Pardon me, but what does A.P. mean or stand for? ... Not necessarily the right answer. The rejection of a false prophet and false
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 16, 2007
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          Paul Leonard wrote,

          >> A.P. <<

          Pardon me, but what does "A.P." mean or stand for?

          >> Considering that in Sinai 3000 died for false activities with the golden calf, 20,000 plus for disrespecting Jehovah's provisions re "meat", a n entire generation for lack of faith, not to mention the removal of the Temple and people from Judea for 70 years, the nearly 2000 year desolation of Judea and the Jewish system must be for something a bit more involved. Like maybe killing the Messiah God's son? <<

          Not necessarily the right answer. The rejection of a false prophet and false messiah would explain why Judea was granted a FURTHER 30+ years before they were over-run by blood-thirsty Romans.

          >> Consider:
          No return to the land given by God, in total… No Temple… A Moslem temple on the temple Mount… No Urim an Thummim… No Ark… [… see (1) below…] No official genealogy scrolls to establish properly who is who (Ezra 2)… No Kingdom… No High Priest… No valid Priesthood… [… see (2) below…]… No tribal distinction/inheritance… No peace… <<

          There is no reason to believe this will always be the state of things; and in fact the Bible promises that it will NOT always be the state of things.
          Building the Third Temple in Jerusalem (e.g., Ezek 37:26-28);
          In-gathering of Jewish exiles to Israel/ Inheritance (e.g., Is 11:12):
          Reunification of Judah and Israel into one people (e.g., Ezek 37:22):
          World peace (e.g., Is 2:4):
          Universal knowledge of G-d (e.g., Isaiah 11:9; 40:5; 66:23; and Zephaniah 3:9);
          Universal knowledge of G-d with ISRAEL (not Christians) being the teachers of what God wants us to do (e.g. Isaiah 2:3, Ezekiel 37:24);
          Kingship/kingdom (e.g. Daniel 7:14).

          >> No obedience to the Law in most things, such as the 70th year sabbath and the cancellation of all debts, etc.<<

          That is a statement that is impossible to verify as true. However, I happen to know:
          a) that most of the Commandments are not for all Israel, nor is it possible for any one Israelite to keep all of them,
          b) that many of the Commandments are effective ONLY in the Land of Israel,
          c) Many of the Commandments are in effect ONLY when there is a Temple on God’s Holy Mount, and
          d) Many Jews DO keep all the commandments they are called upon by the Covenant they have with their God to keep. That are called, “the pious ones” or “Chassidim” in Hebrew. They even keep the Shmittah Year, or the 7th Year Sabbath, when no fields are to be planted or gathered and no other work is to be done.
          e) The Rabbis say that merely learning HOW to fulfill the Commandments (such as the offering of sacrifices), when it is impossible to fulfill them, is accounted by God as if one HAD fulfilled the Law, as if (for example) they HAD offered the sacrifice.

          [… from above (1)…]
          >>> No original writings of the prophets, Moses, etc. <<<

          That will not necessarily be the case forever, either. The Scriptures say that an original Torah Scroll, copied from the Tablets, was placed inside or beside the Ark of the Covenant, so when that is found, the scroll will be there, as well. But scrolls not kept there have all deteriorated beyond usefulness over time, so they are retired from service and buried with reverence. But, also as the Scriptures says, there has been a long tradition of making letter-for-letter copies of the Torah Scrolls, and the Masoretic Text is the result of the care with which the Jews have protected the Torah.

          [… from above (2)…]
          >> No Sacrifices <<

          a) Sacrifices are not needed by God in order for God to forgive sins, nor does God want sacrifices not offered properly or in the proper spirit of repentance.
          b) Sacrifices for sins WILL be re-instituted in the messianic era, (see Ezekiel chapters 43-46, for example).

          Rev M Tillman
        • david murphy
          ... him ... Son ... to ... age ... astonishment. ... just ... longer ... the ... How ... or ... and ... he s ... say, Three ... going ... to ... when ... to
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 17, 2007
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            --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "wglmp" <mtillman@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > The New Testament (especially Mark's Gospel) has a number of
            > instances where Jesus gives an order not to tell anyone what they
            > know or have seen; such as:
            >
            > When Jesus cleansed a leper (Mark 1:44);
            > "And [Jesus] saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man…"
            >
            > When Jesus healed the multitudes (Mark 3:12)
            > "And he [Jesus] straitly charged them that they should not make
            him
            > known..."
            >
            > When the disciples came down from the mountain after the
            > Transfiguration (Mark 9:9).
            > "And as they came down from the mountain, he [Jesus] charged them
            > that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the
            Son
            > of man were risen from the dead."
            >
            > Jesus raised Jairus' daughter from death then gave strict orders
            to
            > keep it secret. (Mark 5:42-43)
            > "And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the
            age
            > of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great
            astonishment.
            > And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; …."
            >
            > Clearly, such acts would have been impossible to hide. So let's
            just
            > recap what Jesus was trying to hide – according to the author of
            Mark:
            >
            > · A leper that is no longer a leper – healed – skin no
            longer
            > peeling off;
            >
            > · A multitude – many, many people – who are no longer sick,
            > afflicted or injured; and
            >
            > · A dead 12-year old girl who is once again walking down
            the
            > streets of her community.
            >
            > Was Mark stupid? Did he think Jesus would try to hide these acts?
            How
            > can this be explained in light of Proverbs 8:8-9, which reads:
            > "All the words of My mouth are with righteousness; Nothing crooked
            or
            > perverse is in them. They are all plain to him who understands,
            and
            > right to those who find knowledge"?
            >
            > How was the leper to follow the Commandment of God, where it says
            > that a man cured of leprosy had to go to the Temple and make a
            > sacrifice to God? How is going to explain himself when he comes to
            > the Priests to make such a sacrifice, if he can't tell them why
            he's
            > making it? How is a multitude supposed to keep a secret? Had Jesus
            > never heard anything like what inspired Ben Franklin to
            say, "Three
            > may keep a secret, if two of them are dead"? Was the 12-year old,
            > when neighbors and friends commented about her being dead, just
            going
            > to say, "I got better" and expect them to believe it? Sounds like
            > something from a Monty Python movie.
            >
            > The author of Mark apparently wants us to believe that Jesus
            > supposedly told his disciples that he speaks in parables so the
            > people will not understand the word of God, which he openly spoke
            to
            > them. Why would Jesus withhold the word of God from the people
            when
            > the whole idea of Jesus' ministry was to get the holy message out
            to
            > as many people as possible?
            >
            > "And he [Jesus] said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the
            > mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all
            > these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and
            not
            > perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at
            any
            > time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven
            > them." (Mark 4:11-12 KJV)
            >
            > Did God tell His prophets of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) one thing
            and
            > later forget; only to tell Mark something else?
            >
            > How can this be explained?
            >
            > Knowing your Creator is what one is supposed to do! God is not to
            be
            > a big secret. A person must KNOW God with a firm and perfect
            > knowledge. The Torah (the SOURCE DOCUMENT) says,
            > "And you shall know today, and set it firmly in your heart, that
            > Hashem is the G-d in heaven above and on earth below, there is no
            > other." (Deuteronomy 4.39)
            >
            > We are commanded to KNOW firmly. Some in Christianity maintain
            that
            > Jesus is saying to keep a secret! Why don't these Christians
            question
            > this? If Jesus was God, what was he hiding, or why was he so
            afraid?
            > Christians should ask; "How could God be afraid of anything?"
            >
            > How can we ALL know of God, if God was secretive? God was not shy
            > when he told Isaiah that the entire earth will have full knowledge
            of
            > Him.
            > "For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the
            > waters cover the sea" (Isaiah 11:9)
            >
            > I believe the reason Judea was overrun by Rome and the Temple and
            > Jerusalem destroyed is that the Jews were lax in explaining to
            > Gentiles that they (the Gentiles) had/have a Covenant with God,
            and
            > that they (the Gentiles) must uphold their end of that covenant.
            That
            > Jonah was sent to Nineveh shows that the Ninevites were under that
            > Covenant, and were about to be punished under the terms of that
            > Covenant. They (the Ninevites) heard Jonah's words (Jonah 3:5-6),
            > repented of their sins, and were forgiven by God so that the
            > destruction He had promised was averted. Jonah 3:10.
            >
            > Why would Jesus withhold important information? Why would he WANT
            to
            > doom some, "lest their sins be forgiven them"? (Mark 4:12) How
            does
            > this make Jesus any better than Jonah, who also didn't want to
            tell
            > some that they needed to "get right with God" as the saying goes?
            > (Jonah 4) Like Jonah, it seems, according to Mark, that Jesus was
            > without pity or mercy. Was this why Jesus was compared to Jonah,
            > rather than that Jonah spent three days in the belly of a fish,
            while
            > Jesus spent three days in a tomb?
            >
            > Rev M Tillman
            >
            Please indulge a young man and a new member of this group. I
            believe, (and I cannot substantiate this, it is my opinion only)
            that the reason Jesus asked people not to broadcast His miracles was
            simply so that he could minister to people on an intimate one-on-one
            level before "the multitudes began to press in on them so that they
            could not even eat a meal." As word of His miracles spread, I
            suspect Jesus began to feel much as Moses did in Sinai; i.e., "the
            burden of this people is too heavy for me to carry alone..." and so,
            in characteristic Jesus fashion, He spends all night in prayer to
            get God's mind on the solution. And lo and behold, he comes down
            from the mountain and chooses the twelve apostles to assist Him in
            His mission. As many people as were there to receive healing and
            restoration from Jesus, I suspect that many were there as the
            Devil's agents seeking only experience and thrill and ultimately
            trying to weigh Jesus down by sheer weight of numbers. We have many
            parallels in modern ministry today, do we not? As a minister
            yourself I'm certain you know of people who are a continual drain on
            your spiritual resources, people who simply keep dealing with the
            same issues over and over again and never progress to maturity.
            These hangers-on siphon away a minister's valuable time and energy
            which might be better utilized in assisting those who seriously need
            help and want to change, or are walking in faith and maturity and
            need a minister's encouragement or counsel in matters of great
            delicacy or import. Jesus was wise, and knew this, and I suspect
            that He attempted to delay the inevitable "enemy coming in like a
            flood" as long as possible.
          • Paul Leonard
            Hi, mtillman@ec.rr.com wrote: Paul Leonard wrote, ... Pardon me, but what does A.P. mean or stand for? My web name is
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 17, 2007
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              Hi,



              mtillman@... wrote:
              Paul Leonard wrote,

              >> A.P. <<

              Pardon me, but what does "A.P." mean or stand for?

              My web name is "anotherpaul". NOT a reference to the apostle.

              I will respond to the balance tonight.

              >> Considering that in Sinai 3000 died for false activities with the golden calf, 20,000 plus for disrespecting Jehovah's provisions re "meat", a n entire generation for lack of faith, not to mention the removal of the Temple and people from Judea for 70 years, the nearly 2000 year desolation of Judea and the Jewish system must be for something a bit more involved. Like maybe killing the Messiah God's son? <<

              Not necessarily the right answer. The rejection of a false prophet and false messiah would explain why Judea was granted a FURTHER 30+ years before they were over-run by blood-thirsty Romans.

              >> Consider:
              No return to the land given by God, in total… No Temple… A Moslem temple on the temple Mount… No Urim an Thummim… No Ark… [… see (1) below…] No official genealogy scrolls to establish properly who is who (Ezra 2)… No Kingdom… No High Priest… No valid Priesthood… [… see (2) below…]… No tribal distinction/ inheritance… No peace… <<

              There is no reason to believe this will always be the state of things; and in fact the Bible promises that it will NOT always be the state of things.
              Building the Third Temple in Jerusalem (e.g., Ezek 37:26-28);
              In-gathering of Jewish exiles to Israel/ Inheritance (e.g., Is 11:12):
              Reunification of Judah and Israel into one people (e.g., Ezek 37:22):
              World peace (e.g., Is 2:4):
              Universal knowledge of G-d (e.g., Isaiah 11:9; 40:5; 66:23; and Zephaniah 3:9);
              Universal knowledge of G-d with ISRAEL (not Christians) being the teachers of what God wants us to do (e.g. Isaiah 2:3, Ezekiel 37:24);
              Kingship/kingdom (e.g. Daniel 7:14).

              >> No obedience to the Law in most things, such as the 70th year sabbath and the cancellation of all debts, etc.<<

              That is a statement that is impossible to verify as true. However, I happen to know:
              a) that most of the Commandments are not for all Israel, nor is it possible for any one Israelite to keep all of them,
              b) that many of the Commandments are effective ONLY in the Land of Israel,
              c) Many of the Commandments are in effect ONLY when there is a Temple on God’s Holy Mount, and
              d) Many Jews DO keep all the commandments they are called upon by the Covenant they have with their God to keep. That are called, “the pious ones” or “Chassidim” in Hebrew. They even keep the Shmittah Year, or the 7th Year Sabbath, when no fields are to be planted or gathered and no other work is to be done.
              e) The Rabbis say that merely learning HOW to fulfill the Commandments (such as the offering of sacrifices), when it is impossible to fulfill them, is accounted by God as if one HAD fulfilled the Law, as if (for example) they HAD offered the sacrifice.

              [… from above (1)…]
              >>> No original writings of the prophets, Moses, etc. <<<

              That will not necessarily be the case forever, either. The Scriptures say that an original Torah Scroll, copied from the Tablets, was placed inside or beside the Ark of the Covenant, so when that is found, the scroll will be there, as well. But scrolls not kept there have all deteriorated beyond usefulness over time, so they are retired from service and buried with reverence. But, also as the Scriptures says, there has been a long tradition of making letter-for-letter copies of the Torah Scrolls, and the Masoretic Text is the result of the care with which the Jews have protected the Torah.

              [… from above (2)…]
              >> No Sacrifices <<

              a) Sacrifices are not needed by God in order for God to forgive sins, nor does God want sacrifices not offered properly or in the proper spirit of repentance.
              b) Sacrifices for sins WILL be re-instituted in the messianic era, (see Ezekiel chapters 43-46, for example).

              Rev M Tillman

            • wglmp
              Thank you for your input, and I ll take it into consideration. However, I am reminded of the verse that says that, With God, nothing is impossible. That
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 17, 2007
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                Thank you for your input, and I'll take it into consideration.
                However, I am reminded of the verse that says that, "With God,
                nothing is impossible." That being true (and I'm sure you'll agree
                that it is) it seems that Jesus (if Jesus was God) could have taken
                on any and all comers at any time, and even all the time, without
                needing to worry about "being hard pressed." He (Jesus), if he was
                God, should not have needed to sleep, for the Bible says, "He (God)
                neither sleeps nor slumbers." (Psalm 121:4)

                Rev. M Tillman

                --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "david murphy"
                <slvrwlf037@...> wrote:

                > >
                > Please indulge a young man and a new member of this group. I
                > believe, (and I cannot substantiate this, it is my opinion only)
                > that the reason Jesus asked people not to broadcast His miracles
                was
                > simply so that he could minister to people on an intimate one-on-
                one
                > level before "the multitudes began to press in on them so that they
                > could not even eat a meal." As word of His miracles spread, I
                > suspect Jesus began to feel much as Moses did in Sinai; i.e., "the
                > burden of this people is too heavy for me to carry alone..." and
                so,
                > in characteristic Jesus fashion, He spends all night in prayer to
                > get God's mind on the solution. And lo and behold, he comes down
                > from the mountain and chooses the twelve apostles to assist Him in
                > His mission. As many people as were there to receive healing and
                > restoration from Jesus, I suspect that many were there as the
                > Devil's agents seeking only experience and thrill and ultimately
                > trying to weigh Jesus down by sheer weight of numbers. We have many
                > parallels in modern ministry today, do we not? As a minister
                > yourself I'm certain you know of people who are a continual drain
                on
                > your spiritual resources, people who simply keep dealing with the
                > same issues over and over again and never progress to maturity.
                > These hangers-on siphon away a minister's valuable time and energy
                > which might be better utilized in assisting those who seriously
                need
                > help and want to change, or are walking in faith and maturity and
                > need a minister's encouragement or counsel in matters of great
                > delicacy or import. Jesus was wise, and knew this, and I suspect
                > that He attempted to delay the inevitable "enemy coming in like a
                > flood" as long as possible.
                >
              • david murphy
                ... taken ... (God) ... Jesus was God in the flesh, however, and subject to all the viccissitudes and limitations that being enfleshed entails. The Bible
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 19, 2007
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                  --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "wglmp" <mtillman@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you for your input, and I'll take it into consideration.
                  > However, I am reminded of the verse that says that, "With God,
                  > nothing is impossible." That being true (and I'm sure you'll agree
                  > that it is) it seems that Jesus (if Jesus was God) could have
                  taken
                  > on any and all comers at any time, and even all the time, without
                  > needing to worry about "being hard pressed." He (Jesus), if he was
                  > God, should not have needed to sleep, for the Bible says, "He
                  (God)
                  > neither sleeps nor slumbers." (Psalm 121:4)
                  >
                  > Rev. M Tillman
                  Jesus was God "in the flesh," however, and subject to all the
                  viccissitudes and limitations that being enfleshed entails. The
                  Bible also says (of God) "Do I drink the blood of bulls and goats?
                  If I were hungry I would not tell you, for I own the cattle on a
                  thousand hills. . ." Does that mean Jesus should not eat as well,
                  because He was God? In special circumstances, God granted Him grace
                  to do supernatural phenomenon (such as walking on water) but He
                  still had to eat, sleep, drink, go to the bathroom and all the other
                  things we humans have to do. How else then could he be a "high
                  priest that sympathizes with our weaknesses, for he was tempted
                  likewise in all ways as we are, yet was without sin." Jesus knew
                  what it was like to be hungry, thirsty, tired, cold, and helpless.
                  God could take on "any and all comers" all the time, as you put it,
                  bcause God is pure Spirit, and therefore does not sleep, or eat, or
                  use the bathroom. Why? Because if He slept, that would entail a need
                  for something other than Himself to be His power source; the same
                  with food. God is sufficient in and of Himself for all things, at
                  all times, for all time. Jesus, however, still had to walk around
                  the dusty old Earth just like the rest of us mortals, albeit
                  empowered by the Holy Spirit.
                • wglmp
                  Then that STILL doesn t explain why Jesus (primarily, according to Mark) told from a few individuals to crowds of people to keep a secret that he should have
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 21, 2007
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                    Then that STILL doesn't explain why Jesus (primarily, according to
                    Mark) told from a few individuals to crowds of people to keep a
                    secret that he should have KNOWN couldn't be kept by such numbers of
                    people.
                    But Jesus was NOT "God in the flesh," because God is not a man, and
                    doesn't change, so He never was a man, and never WILL be a man. This
                    is an important thing for the Prophets to teach, because God knew
                    that a man might come along and try to change His (God's) Law even
                    falsely by claiming to be a prophet (see Deut 18:20, for example),
                    and when all else failed, that man would resort to the claim that he
                    WAS God, so really whatever 'new' thing he's teaching now is 'just
                    the same' as the 'old' thing that had been taught in olden times. So
                    God warned Israel NOT think that God was (or ever will become) a man.
                    He (God) pointed out that when they (Israel) heard God speaking to
                    them, they saw no form. (Deuteronomy 4:15)
                    It's not even fair to say that Jesus was 'the son of God'
                    because "The Lord, He is God -- there is none else beside him"
                    (Deuteronomy 4:35). Also, Eccles. 4:8 says, "There is one, and there
                    is no second; yea, he has neither son nor brother, and there is no
                    end to all his toil; neither is his eye sated from wealth." "The land
                    and the fullness thereof are the Lord's," according to Psalm 24:1, so
                    surely God is wealthy, yet Jesus didn't even have "a place to lay his
                    head." (Luke 9:58)

                    And Jesus WAS subject to "viccissitudes and limitations that being
                    enfleshed entails." For example, Jesus apparently ate and drank (I
                    don't have a chapter and verse citation at my fingertips, but I
                    believe it to be true), and he slept (Mark 4:37-39; Matthew 8:24-26;
                    Luke 8:23-24). What's more, he sweated blood in the Garden of
                    Gathsemene, and bled when his flesh was cut by the lashes. That being
                    true, it's not too far off the mark to believe Jesus suffered other
                    bodily accidents. Finally (the 'nail in the coffin,' you might say),
                    he died. Since God can't die, Jesus wasn't God.

                    Rev M Tillman

                    --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "david murphy"
                    <slvrwlf037@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "wglmp" <mtillman@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thank you for your input, and I'll take it into consideration.
                    > > However, I am reminded of the verse that says that, "With God,
                    > > nothing is impossible." That being true (and I'm sure you'll
                    agree
                    > > that it is) it seems that Jesus (if Jesus was God) could have
                    > taken
                    > > on any and all comers at any time, and even all the time, without
                    > > needing to worry about "being hard pressed." He (Jesus), if he
                    was
                    > > God, should not have needed to sleep, for the Bible says, "He
                    > (God)
                    > > neither sleeps nor slumbers." (Psalm 121:4)
                    > >
                    > > Rev. M Tillman
                    > Jesus was God "in the flesh," however, and subject to all the
                    > viccissitudes and limitations that being enfleshed entails. The
                    > Bible also says (of God) "Do I drink the blood of bulls and goats?
                    > If I were hungry I would not tell you, for I own the cattle on a
                    > thousand hills. . ." Does that mean Jesus should not eat as well,
                    > because He was God? In special circumstances, God granted Him grace
                    > to do supernatural phenomenon (such as walking on water) but He
                    > still had to eat, sleep, drink, go to the bathroom and all the
                    other
                    > things we humans have to do. How else then could he be a "high
                    > priest that sympathizes with our weaknesses, for he was tempted
                    > likewise in all ways as we are, yet was without sin." Jesus knew
                    > what it was like to be hungry, thirsty, tired, cold, and helpless.
                    > God could take on "any and all comers" all the time, as you put it,
                    > bcause God is pure Spirit, and therefore does not sleep, or eat, or
                    > use the bathroom. Why? Because if He slept, that would entail a
                    need
                    > for something other than Himself to be His power source; the same
                    > with food. God is sufficient in and of Himself for all things, at
                    > all times, for all time. Jesus, however, still had to walk around
                    > the dusty old Earth just like the rest of us mortals, albeit
                    > empowered by the Holy Spirit.
                    >
                  • wglmp
                    ... asked/said ... punishment now.
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 22, 2007
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                      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard
                      <anotherpaul2001@...> asked/said

                      >>A.P. Then what did they do that was so bad it is still suffering
                      punishment now.<<

                      The majority stopped following the Torah as it is/was explained by
                      the Pharisees. Some (most?) even fell into the idolatry of the
                      nations around them. The 10 Northern Tribes fell away so far that
                      they lost their identity as Children of Israel. Most Jews today are
                      not observant, and those who are not observant are at a higher risk
                      of their children not being identified as Jews at all. (Reform
                      and "reconstructionist" Jews aren't Jewish within three or four
                      generations.) Most of the time, this happens through intermarriage,
                      but the rest of the time it's caused by apostasy.

                      >>Your answer seems to be avoiding the real issue. What do we have a
                      record of that is equal to ALL that they did before, so as to suffer
                      2000 years of destruction??????<<

                      I don't understand your question. Are you asking for a complete list
                      of every sin of the Children of Israel? Good luck finding such a
                      thing! However, if that's really what you're asking for, then you
                      might go to a Rabbi and ask for the list the Jews provide on the Day
                      of Atonement, where they say, "we have done this, and we have done
                      that," etc. If you don't live near an Orthodox Rabbi, look for a
                      Jewish Prayer book (Called a "Siddur") for the Yom Kippur Service.
                      However, it's not so much what Israel DID, but what they have failed
                      to do that is keeping them in exile. If you are asking me for what
                      would end this era of dispersion, I would say that, if Israel kept
                      two Sabbaths in a row, their exile would soon be near an end.

                      >>A.P. In your view. In the view of others those prophecies have a
                      spiritual rather than a literal fulfillment. Considering that Judaism
                      is still under God's disfavor due to their still lacking obedience or
                      any way to be obedient to the law, it is unlikely you are correct.<<

                      That's looking at it the wrong way around. The fact that the Jews
                      survive to this day (when the nations around them have all long since
                      disappeared, shows that they are STILL in God's favor. It's the
                      fulfillment of a Biblical prophecy, in fact.
                      Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things
                      have come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set
                      before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations,
                      where the Lord your G-d has driven you, [2] And shall return to the
                      Lord your G-d, and shall obey his voice according to all that I
                      command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and
                      with all your soul; [3] That then the Lord your G-d will turn your
                      captivity, and have compassion upon you, and will return and gather
                      you from all the nations, where the Lord your G-d has scattered you.

                      See also Levi 26:44, 45; Deut 4:31; I Kings 11:39; II Kings 14:27;
                      Psalm 89:30-37; 94:14; Isaiah 48:9-11; 49:14-16; 54:7-10; Jer 4:27;
                      5:10, 18; 30:11; 32:37-42; 33:19-26; 46:28; Lam 3:31, 32; Ezek 11:13-
                      21; 16:60-63; 36:16-38; Hosea 11:8, 9; and Amos 9:8-9.
                      The continued existence of the Jews defies the notion that Israel
                      is "under God's disfavor".

                      >>A.P. They were for ALL Israel,<<

                      You have missed my point, apparently. Even today, with civil laws,
                      nobody who is not charged with following a law can be punished for
                      not following that law. For example, only those who grow tobacco must
                      pay a tax for growing tobacco. Nobody has EVER been convicted of
                      failing to pay the tobacco-grower's tax if they had not grown
                      tobacco. Likewise, God does not punish the average Israelite for
                      failing to write out a Torah Scroll just because the King of Israel
                      is commanded to write out a Torah Scroll.
                      Nowhere in the Torah does it say that all Israel must keep all of the
                      Torah's Laws. Nor could it.

                      >>No one could keep them but all were to try to not excuse a lack of
                      obedience in total, by claiming a lack of ability<<

                      That's not making sense to me at all. Nowhere in the Torah does it
                      say that Israel must keep all of the Torah's Laws, so no excuse(s)
                      were even needed for not keeping those with which a person was not
                      charged.
                      No man was ever required to make an offering after childbirth. No man
                      was ever required to go to a mikva after menstruation. To think that
                      a man would be punished for failing to follow those commandments
                      shows a lack of understanding of those Laws. So no "excuse" was
                      needed to be given by a man to explain why he had not kept them. It's
                      just silliness to claim he would need an excuse!

                      <<b) that many of the Commandments are effective ONLY in the Land of
                      Israel,

                      >>A.P. Oh, and which ones were those? Remember if in another land
                      they were still to travel to Jerusalem and worship according to the
                      Law there. No exceptions.<<

                      The Shmittah Year is a prime example of a Law that applies only to
                      those Israelites who live in Israel`s ancestral homeland.

                      <<c) Many of the Commandments are in effect ONLY when there is a
                      Temple on God's Holy Mount, and

                      >>A.P. Oh, and where is this said in Scripture. Note in God's law not
                      written in mens efforts to avoid it.<<

                      It says that, when you bring a sacrifice, "you will bring it to the
                      place where I will cause My Name to be." That place is the Temple
                      Mount, in Jerusalem. See Levi. 4:5-6, Deut 12:5, 11, 14, 18, 21, 26.

                      >>In addition what laws do they really keep? some laws on
                      cleanliness, but not of sacrifice and worship.<<

                      That's a good one. There are many Jews who keep the Laws they are
                      charged with keeping, as well as they are able to. They are
                      called "tzaddikim" or "chassidim." (And some Gentiles keep the Laws
                      they are supposed to keep.) They also DO keep the Laws of sacrifice
                      and worship.
                      The book of Jeremiah tells the story of how the people of Judah
                      sinned, and as punishment for their actions, were taken into the
                      Babylonian Exile. This exile lasted the seventy years. The sin was
                      idolatry, the people repented through their punishment of exile.
                      However, their repentance occurred without the Holy Temple. There
                      were no blood sacrifices in this seventy-year period. Such a heinous
                      sin as this, and it does not require the shedding of blood on the
                      alter? Animal sacrifices are obviously not required for repentance.
                      All that is required is that our hearts turn to G-d and His Word.
                      Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears
                      hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not
                      required.
                      Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast
                      fallen by thine iniquity. [2] Take with you words, and turn to the
                      LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us]
                      graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
                      Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]:
                      thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of G-d
                      [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, thou
                      wilt not despise.
                      Psalms 69:30 I will praise the name of G-d with a song, and will
                      magnify him with thanksgiving. [31] [This] also shall please the LORD
                      better than an ox [or] bullock that hath horns and hoofs.
                      Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the
                      LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] His delight. [9] The way of
                      the wicked [is] an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that
                      followeth after righteousness.
                      Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear
                      of the LORD men depart from evil.
                      Isaiah 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not?
                      wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge?
                      Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your
                      labours.
                      Isaiah 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to
                      afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to
                      spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and
                      an acceptable day to the LORD?
                      2 Chronicles 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I
                      command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among
                      my people; [14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall
                      humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their
                      wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their
                      sin, and will heal their land.
                      And the Lord agreed.
                      Therefore, the earnestly offered prayers of the Jews DO fulfill the
                      Laws concerning sacrifice and worship.

                      >>A.P. OH and these rabbi's are right why?<<

                      Because God says they are right, and whatever they tell us, we are to
                      do.
                      Deut 17:8. If a matter eludes you in judgment, between blood and
                      blood, between judgment and judgment, or between lesion and lesion,
                      words of dispute in your cities, then you shall rise and go up to the
                      place the Lord, your God, chooses. 9. And you shall come to the
                      Levitic kohanim and to the judge who will be in those days, and you
                      shall inquire, and they will tell you the words of judgment. 10. And
                      you shall do according to the word they tell you, from the place the
                      Lord will choose, and you shall observe to do according to all they
                      instruct you. 11. According to the law they instruct you and
                      according to the judgment they say to you, you shall do; you shall
                      not divert from the word they tell you, either right or left. 12. And
                      the man who acts intentionally, not obeying the kohen who stands
                      there to serve the Lord, your God, or to the judge that man shall
                      die, and you shall abolish evil from Israel. 13. And all the people
                      shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer act wantonly.

                      >>because it agrees with scripture or it is all they can say to
                      avoid admitting their failure???<<

                      They don't have to avoid admitting when they are in error. God
                      allowed that that might happen, and there was a way to correct the
                      erroneous decision(s) of the Rabbis. But those decisions still have
                      to be followed UNTIL they are deemed to be in error; you can`t just
                      claim they are in error and refuse to follow the judgements of the
                      Rabbis on your own say-so.

                      >>A.P. Yep, but even the Masoretic text was admittedly tampered with
                      by the Sopherim.<<

                      Says who? Where is that written?

                      <<b) Sacrifices for sins WILL be re-instituted in the messianic era,
                      (see Ezekiel chapters 43-46, for example).>>

                      >>A.P. Humm, looks symbolic to me, not literal. But each can believe
                      as they wish.<<

                      It's not symbolic, however much you might think it is. Each may NOT
                      believe as they wish, but must follow the teachings of the Rabbis
                      (that is, if they want to be following the Word of God.)

                      >>What is true will come from those NOT under condemnation NOW and
                      for the last 2000 years.<<

                      Um, what? What is true HAS ALREADY COME to us FROM THE JEWS!
                      Deut 30:11-18. It's not too hard, not is it far off, but it's RIGHT
                      HERE, in your hands, that YOU MAY DO IT. [Paraphrased by me.]
                      So, we have what God wants us to do.
                      We understand it ONLY through what His designated experts (the
                      Rabbis) say it means.
                      We must do as they say.
                      Failure to do as they say will result in our being CUT OFF from God's
                      favor, whether as Jews or as Gentiles.
                      We MUST NOT accept the teachings of anyone else other than the
                      rabbis, even if he claims to be a prophet, and even if he perform
                      signs and miracles that DO come to pass! Dt 13:2-4. We are NOT to
                      listen to him, nor be afraid of him or anything he says. But he is to
                      be put to death so that his evil will be cut off from the land.
                      ___________
                      That was in response to the following:

                      >> Considering that in Sinai 3000 died for false activities with the
                      golden calf, 20,000 plus for disrespecting Jehovah's provisions
                      re "meat", a n entire generation for lack of faith, not to mention
                      the removal of the Temple and people from Judea for 70 years, the
                      nearly 2000 year desolation of Judea and the Jewish system must be
                      for something a bit more involved. Like maybe killing the Messiah
                      God's son? <<

                      Not necessarily the right answer. The rejection of a false prophet
                      and false messiah would explain why Judea was granted a FURTHER 30+
                      years before they were over-run by blood-thirsty Romans.

                      A.P. Then what did they do that was so bad it is still suffering
                      punishment now. Your answer seems to be avoiding the real issue. What
                      do we have a record of that is equal to ALL that they did before, so
                      as to suffer 2000 years of destruction??????

                      >> Consider:
                      No return to the land given by God, in total… No Temple… A Moslem
                      temple on the temple Mount… No Urim an Thummim… No Ark… […
                      see (1) below…] No official genealogy scrolls to establish properly
                      who is who (Ezra 2)… No Kingdom… No High Priest… No valid
                      Priesthood… [… see (2) below…]… No tribal
                      distinction/inheritance… No peace… <<

                      There is no reason to believe this will always be the state of
                      things; and in fact the Bible promises that it will NOT always be the
                      state of things.

                      >> No obedience to the Law in most things, such as the 70th year
                      sabbath and the cancellation of all debts, etc.<<

                      A.P. In your view. In the view of others those prophecies have a
                      spiritual rather than a literal fulfillment. Considering that Judaism
                      is still under God's disfavor due to their still lacking obedience or
                      any way to be obedient to the law, it is unlikely you are correct.

                      >>That is a statement that is impossible to verify as true. However,
                      I happen to know:
                      a) that most of the Commandments are not for all Israel, nor is it
                      possible for any one Israelite to keep all of them,

                      A.P. They were for ALL Israel, No one could keep them but all were to
                      try to not excuse a lack of obedience in total, by claiming a lack of
                      ability


                      <<b) that many of the Commandments are effective ONLY in the Land of
                      Israel,

                      A.P. Oh, and which ones were those? Remember if in another land they
                      were still to travel to Jerusalem and worship according to the Law
                      there. No exceptions.

                      <<c) Many of the Commandments are in effect ONLY when there is a
                      Temple on God’s Holy Mount, and

                      A.P. Oh, and where is this said in Scripture. Note in God's law not
                      written in mens efforts to avoid it.

                      <<d) Many Jews DO keep all the commandments they are called upon by
                      the Covenant they have with their God to keep. That are called,
                      “the pious ones” or “Chassidim” in Hebrew. They even keep the
                      Shmittah Year, or the 7th Year Sabbath, when no fields are to be
                      planted or gathered and no other work is to be done.

                      A.P. Humm, you just said above that no one can keep them all. So they
                      do not do so. In addition what laws do they really keep? some laws on
                      cleanliness, but not of sacrifice and worship.

                      <<e) The Rabbis say that merely learning HOW to fulfill the
                      Commandments (such as the offering of sacrifices), when it is
                      impossible to fulfill them, is accounted by God as if one HAD
                      fulfilled the Law, as if (for example) they HAD offered the sacrifice.

                      A.P. OH and these rabbi's are right why? because it agrees with
                      scripture or it is all they can say to avoid admitting their
                      failure???

                      [… from above (1)…]
                      >>> No original writings of the prophets, Moses, etc. <<<

                      <<That will not necessarily be the case forever, either. The
                      Scriptures say that an original Torah Scroll, copied from the
                      Tablets, was placed inside or beside the Ark of the Covenant, so when
                      that is found, the scroll will be there, as well. But scrolls not
                      kept there have all deteriorated beyond usefulness over time, so they
                      are retired from service and buried with reverence. But, also as the
                      Scriptures says, there has been a long tradition of making letter-for-
                      letter copies of the Torah Scrolls, and the Masoretic Text is the
                      result of the care with which the Jews have protected the Torah.

                      A.P. Yep, but even the Masoretic text was admittedly tampered with by
                      the Sopherim. I agree not a big issue to me, but of no value in this
                      issue.

                      [… from above (2)…]
                      >> No Sacrifices <<

                      a) Sacrifices are not needed by God in order for God to forgive sins,
                      nor does God want sacrifices not offered properly or in the proper
                      spirit of repentance.

                      A.P. OH and again where is this stated in the Law as a reason for NOT
                      offering sacrifices? Sounds like an excuse for NOT obeying to me.
                      Remember obedience is BETTER than sacrifice not a substitute in some
                      areas.

                      b) Sacrifices for sins WILL be re-instituted in the messianic era,
                      (see Ezekiel chapters 43-46, for example).

                      A.P. Humm, looks symbolic to me, not literal. But each can believe as
                      they wish. What is true will come from those NOT under condemnation
                      NOW and for the last 2000 years.
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