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Re: Was Jesus Christ the Messiah?

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  • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
    Mr. Tillman, Continuing where I left off, you had written: The precise words rise from
    Message 1 of 55 , Aug 9, 2007
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      Mr. Tillman,

      Continuing where I left off, you had written:

      << Where is it written that the messiah would rise from the dead? >>

      The precise words "rise from the dead" are not used, but the idea is
      implicit in several OT messianic texts. In Isaiah 52:13-53:12, Isaish
      says that the suffering Servant of the LORD will be "high and lifted
      up and greatly exalted" (52:13), a reversal of the humiliation he
      will experience in his suffering for the people (see also 53:10-12).

      You wrote:

      << You seem to be ignoring the prophecies that indicate the ushering
      in of a messianic kingdom with the messiah sitting on the throne of
      his ancestor, King David. Jesus never sat on that throne, nor was a
      Davidic Kingdom instituted. And he wasn't a descendant of King David
      fit to sit on the throne of King David. >>

      I didn't ignore these prophecies; I addressed them in my very next
      paragraph, which you quote below.

      Jesus was a descendant of David (Matt. 1:1-17; Mark 10:47; Luke 1:32;
      Acts 2:29-30; Rom. 1:3). By the way, David was anointed as the true
      king of Israel by Samuel when he was a young boy (1 Sam. 16:13-14)
      long before David actually began ruling at age thirty from the throne
      as king over all Israel (2 Sam. 5:3-5). So a delay between God's
      spiritual validation of the Messiah and his physical assumption of a
      literal throne on earth has precedent in the example of David
      himself, the leading type of the Messiah.

      You wrote:

      << But, I wonder, what if the REAL messiah comes, and ushers in
      the messianic kingdom, and it turns out NOT to be Jesus? >>

      Well, then, it will turn out that Christians are mistaken. What if
      the Messiah ushers in the messianic kingdom and it turns out to be
      Jesus after all?

      You wrote:

      << And I know that the first Christians were Jews, but they were
      Hellenized Jews, and quickly returned to Judaism when the prophecy
      Jesus made that those to whom he (Jesus) was speaking to would see
      the promised Davidic Kingdom turned out to be a false prophecy.
      That's one of the reasons Paul had to recruit Greeks and Romans; the
      original Christian congregations were dying out. >>

      Your comments here are chronologically out of sync with the
      historical reality. Paul was "recruiting" Gentiles to faith in Jesus
      in the 40s, at the same time that the Jewish Christian movement was
      growing and spreading throughout the Mediterranean world. The
      original Christian congregations were thriving, not dying out. Few if
      any Jewish Christians were abandoning their belief in Jesus during
      this period. And all, or nearly all, Jews in the first century
      were "Hellenized" to some extent.

      In Christ's service,
      Rob Bowman
    • gblezone
      Anti semitism has its roots and seed in anti God.The emnity with the womans seed and the serpents seed. If as it clearly shown that the seed of the woman is
      Message 55 of 55 , Oct 9, 2007
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        Anti semitism has its roots and seed in anti God.The emnity with the
        womans seed and the serpents seed.
        If as it clearly shown that the seed of the woman is The only
        begotten Son of God "The WORD made flesh" Then biblical logic shows
        that the seed of the serpent is the word of lucifer the deciever and
        the father of lies.
        It folows then from that that even as the seed of the woman had a
        body so then must the seed of the serpent and allbeit the "spirit OF
        ANTICHIRST" has gone abroad there will be to A antichrist that is
        the full embodimnent of that spirit.
        That there is evidence in the scripture that it will be a jew who
        left or deserted the religion of his fathers does NOT meen that to
        so state is antisemitic.It is a simple statement of the truth
        without prejudice.
        A truth taken out of context even if it si scripture can and does
        become a lie!Thus the truth that the jews(in general(but not all)
        were guilty of crucyfying Christ is self evidently true.But that the
        gentiles can justyfythemselves by a narrowness of thier vision as to
        the truth is wrong.For the scriptures clearly state that "ALL have
        sinned "both jew and gentile then.Moreover the lamb that was
        sacraficed on the day of atonement was first examined by the high
        preist and hands layed upon it for the sins of the people.But seeign
        that the jews had no authoiryt or power to put him to death but
        seekgin to do so albeit haveing proved nothign as to any guilt let
        alone worhty of death.Handed him over to the GENTILE pilate who also
        layed handsupon him,Seeign that he too found no guilt in him nor
        anything worhty of death sought to release him and sent him to herod
        a mixture of both jew and gentile who therefore handled him also.
        Thus each of all the human race in Gods economy was represented by
        them.The jew the gentile and the mixture of them both,And as he
        fullfilled all the law hands were layed upon him for the sins of
        The question of guilt then rests upon ALL! and if the jew thineth
        himself guiltless he by the scriptures is proved other wise. and if
        by the law the gentile may claim some rightousness he too by the law
        is convicted of his sin. as to the mixture of them both.The Lord
        said not a word to herod yet Herod sent him to his death so there
        is no justyfication there either.
        Who then can stand in the presencE of God? AND WHAT CAN WE OFFER
        other than what Ciane offered?
        There is nothing of ourselves or in ourselves that is aceptable to
        God wether jew gentile or otherwise for in romans it is 'proved' all
        are guilty!
        Thus if the antichrist is to be a jew are all jews condemned by it?
        and the gentile justyfied?Farfrom it.
        For the scripturs also reveal that the time of the gentiles is at
        hand and there will be a great falling away from THE faith(NOT
        RELIGION THEN) and men will turn away from the truth and unto the
        doctrins of devils.Thus will be ready to recieve him who "cometh in
        his own name"While it si the jews who will suffer at his hand .
        Who then is innocent!? or can justyfythemsleves?
        In truth the just shall live by faith both the jew and the gentile.
        and all that is NOT of faith is sin!
        Why then does a jew seek to justyfyhimself by declaring another
        mans innocence?
        For even if he was that does not justyfy him.But Christ is it who
        But if the antichrist is a jew that does not make all jews godless
        or antichrist.
        And a sit has been said that gives no gentile any ground for self
        justyfication for he who justyfies a jew is also he who justyfies a
        gentile and the ground is ONLY upon the blood of the lamb"as one
        slain from before the foundations of the world"
        It folows then that the debatre and argument is more "vain debate"
        and a fruitless argument in that it genders not to faith but to its
        and leads not TO God but away .
        Thus the idea or 'wisper' of a thought in either is not from God .
        "For it pleased God to bruise Him"
        For if we seek to justyfy oursleves we seek to establish our own
        rightousness and if that be the case we seek not Gods glory but our
        own and not Gods!
        Wrong then on all counts.
        If the scripture says therefore the antichrist will be a jew.
        Then so he will turn out to be.
        But we are neither condemned or justyfied by it.
        THAT comes from our acceptance of Him "who God has sent."

        Yours in Christ

        gerald uk.

        Surely an evnagelical must acknowledge his root not so much from the
        reformation but from the apostolic church? By that I do NOT mean
        rome but by that church whih was founded upon the eternal ROCK the
        Lord Jesus Christ.That church that was born of that incorruptable
        seed which is the Word of God and by that power of God which is the
        HOLY SPIRIT by the will of God the FATHER.
        The reformation was but the manifestation of that seed which had so
        long been buried under the traditions of men the doctrins of devils.
        And which progresively has grown with each succeding revalation or
        understanding of the truths as they are found in the scriptures.
        Till that which was sown will bring forth the fruit after its own
        "Till we all come tothe unity of THE faith unto............"

        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "wglmp" <mtillman@...>
        > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert M. Bowman,
        > <faithhasitsreasons@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Mr. Tillman,
        > > [you wrote]:
        > >> But I think claiming the anti-christ is a Jew IS an attempt as
        > anti-Semitism, since it seeks to vilify Jews by associating them
        > an imaginary boogie-man, in the shape of a mythical anti-christ.
        > anti-christ is made out to be completely reprehensible AND
        > and therefore is the perfect boogie-man.>>
        > >
        > > Frankly, this is ridiculous. The same Christians who speculate
        > the anti-Christ will be a Jew also believe (correctly) that Jesus
        > Christ, whom they worship as their Lord and Savior, was also a
        > If describing someone as a Jew is meant from their point of view
        > make him out as a boogie-man, why would they admit that Jesus was
        > Jewish?<
        > That's not at ALL what I was saying, and yes, I agree what you
        > decried was "ridiculous." I was saying that claiming the anti-
        > is or will be a Jew would tend to make those foolish Christians
        > don't think critically (lamentably, all too often an occurrence,
        > with (almost) all other groups), will simply suspect ALL Jews as
        > potential anti-christs. That kind of suspicion coupled with
        > fervor, can go nowhere good quick, fast, and in a hurry.
        > > The issue is not whether you should believe Pat Robertson, but
        > whether you can legitimately make a case that he is anti-Semitic
        > a statement he makes about many Jews being spiritually deaf and
        > blind. You can't, unless you're willing to make the same
        > against Isaiah.<
        > I believe I can. Robertson is vilifying the Jews simply because
        > know Jesus was not the messiah and refuse to follow him as if a
        > god, whereas Isaiah was trying to correct the Jews who had fallen
        > away from the True God to follow false gods. Isaiah had Israel's
        > in mind, whereas Robertson was just pointing out how "wrong" the
        > are.
        > << I'll look up some for you, without a vow to do so. How would
        > define "Evangelical", so I don't look for quotes from Mother
        > or Pol Pot? >>
        > > A Protestant Evangelical is a member of a Protestant
        > (i.e., one that historically traces its roots to the Reformation)
        > adheres to the beliefs of evangelicalism, as defined in such
        > statements of faith as the following:>
        > > http://www.worldevangelicalalliance.com/wea/statement.htm
        > So, basically, that would include every last American Christian
        > exceptÂ… who, exactly?
        > Mother Theresa may fit the description, I really don't know.
        > http://www.evangelicalcatholic.org/
        > Pol Pot, maybe not so much.
        > Rev M Tillman
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