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Imaginary Messianic Prophecies in the NT?

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  • wglmp
    Imaginary Messianic Prophecies in the NT? The following verses are from the NT, and are supposedly citations of prophecies that were allegedly fulfilled by
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 7, 2007
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      Imaginary Messianic Prophecies in the NT?

      The following verses are from the NT, and are supposedly citations
      of "prophecies" that were allegedly fulfilled by Jesus. All of the
      verses in this post are from the KJV.
      These "prophecies" either don't exist at all or can't be found in the
      places cited, if given by the NT.
      While you read this list, ask yourself this question:
      "If there were any real truth to what is called the "messiahship" of
      jesus, why did the NT find a need to make up prophecies for jesus to
      fulfil?"
      OTOH, if you know where these "prophecies" can be found, please
      provide that information, as I (for one) would like to know.

      The List:

      Matt 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it
      might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets,* He shall be
      called a Nazarene.
      *An imaginary prophecy; it doesn't exist.

      Matt. 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the
      prophet,* saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the
      price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did
      value; 10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed
      me.
      *An imaginary prophecy nowhere to be found in the Book of Jeremiah.

      Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him*: but
      woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for
      that man if he had never been born.
      *Nowhere in the Bible can it be found written that the "son of man is
      to go." Neither can any "woe" be found upon the man who betrayed him.

      Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God,* I will send them
      prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and
      persecute: 50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from
      the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; 51
      From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished
      between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be
      required of this generation.
      *Luke accredits this anti-Semitic and false charge to "the wisdom of
      God." One can search in vain for any reference to the slaying of
      Zacharias, whom Matthew identifies as the son of Barachais (Matt.
      23.35).

      John 7.38: 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture* hath said,
      out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
      *This is another imaginary scripture nowhere to be found in the Bible.
      But I wish to offer a caviat to this one. The NEXT VERSE says,
      39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him
      should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that
      Jesus was not yet glorified.)
      I believe most people have assumed that what had not yet been given
      was only the Holy Spirit, but I wonder if it was also the Scripture
      that had not yet been given. Any opinions?

      John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy
      name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is
      lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture* might be
      fulfilled.
      *This is another imaginary prophecy. Before this claim was made, "son
      of perdition" is not found in the Bible AT ALL. Again, though, the
      Scripture that might be fulfilled MAY be given in the next verse:
      13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world,
      that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
      If that is the case, does anybody know where THAT Scripture might be
      found? I looked for it using Yahoo's on-line search engine, but
      didn't see any references other than John 17.

      Eph. 5:14 Wherefore he saith,* Awake thou that sleepest, and arise
      from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
      *Paul does not say who was the original author of these words. He
      makes them appear to come from God but they are nowhere to be found
      in the Bible. The name or title "christ" first occurs in the NT, and
      does not appear even once in the Bible before the New Testament book
      of the Gospel According to Matthew.
    • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
      wglmp, Have you looked up any of these passages in a commentary or other reference work to see what they say about them? In Christ s service, Rob Bowman
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 7, 2007
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        wglmp,

        Have you looked up any of these passages in a commentary or other
        reference work to see what they say about them?

        In Christ's service,
        Rob Bowman
      • wglmp
        No, but that would seem to be a good idea. Have any suggestions where to start?
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 7, 2007
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          No, but that would seem to be a good idea. Have any suggestions where
          to start?

          --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr."
          <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
          >
          > wglmp,
          >
          > Have you looked up any of these passages in a commentary or other
          > reference work to see what they say about them?
          >
          > In Christ's service,
          > Rob Bowman
          >
        • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
          wglmp, You wrote:
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 7, 2007
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            wglmp,

            You wrote:

            << While you read this list, ask yourself this question:
            "If there were any real truth to what is called the "messiahship" of
            jesus, why did the NT find a need to make up prophecies for jesus to
            fulfil?" >>

            On the other hand, since the NT quotes numerous statements that we
            know come from the OT and that were fulfilled in Jesus, it is
            reasonable to assume that the NT writers must have had something in
            mind when they quoted these statements that do not seem to appear
            verbatim in the OT, even if two thousand years later we are unsure
            what they meant. It is highly unlikely that the NT authors simply
            made up quotations they knew didn't exist. Their contemporaries had
            copies of the OT writings and would know if the NT authors were
            trying to pull a fast one.

            Keep in mind that ancient authors didn't have elaborate means of
            punctuation and when they say that someone else "said" something
            they may or may not be quoting verbatim. Also, in at least one of
            the passages you listed an OT quotation is probably not in view at
            all (Eph. 5:14).

            Here is a list of resources:

            NET Bible and related resources--this is an excellent place to start
            if you're limited to online sources. The site has a translation with
            notes, as well as articles on most passages of the Bible.
            http://www.bible.org/

            Apologetics Index--see this web page for a list of online resources
            on alleged biblical contradictions and other difficulties.
            http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b08ac.html#sites

            Archer, Gleason L. _New International Encyclopedia of Bible
            Difficulties_. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1982, 2001. Excellent book
            with which to begin; many of your questions are answered here, as I
            recall. I think he has a special discussion toward the beginning
            about NT quotations from the OT.
            http://tinyurl.com/yrs963

            Geisler, Norman L., and Thomas Howe. _When Critics Ask: A Popular
            Handbook of Bible Difficulties_. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books; reprint,
            Grand Rapids: Baker, 1992. Similar to Archer, overlapping in
            difficulties treated. Slightly more popular, readable treatment
            (though Archer isn't that tough).
            http://tinyurl.com/27444l

            Keener, Craig. _A Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew_. Grand
            Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999. In case you don't find helpful answers in
            the works listed above, Keener's commentary should help you with
            Matthew 2:23 and 27:9. The commentary is searchable at Amazon.com
            for registered users (try searching for "Nazareth" for 2:23
            and "Jeremiah" for 27:9). This commentary is more technical and
            better suited for intermediate to advanced readers.
            http://tinyurl.com/29a588

            Edwards, James R. _The Gospel According to Mark_. Pillar New
            Testament Commentary. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2001. You'll find a
            brief comment on your question regarding Mark 14:21 in this
            commentary, which is also searchable at Amazon.com (several others
            on Mark are as well, but not for this verse).
            http://tinyurl.com/ynkac8

            Morris, Leon. _The Gospel of John: The English Text with
            Introduction, Exposition and Notes_. Rev. ed. New International
            Commentary on the New Testament. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity;
            Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1995. Search at Amazon.com under "rivers" to
            find John 7:38 and "fulfilled" to find John 17:12 (page 645).
            http://tinyurl.com/2l9e8k

            Hoehner, Harold W. _Ephesians: An Exegetical Commentary_. Baker
            Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament. Search at Amazon.com
            under "sleep" (p. 686).
            http://tinyurl.com/2ln3k5

            I didn't find a good Amazon-com-searchable commentary on Luke that
            allowed viewing Luke 11:49, but there are several good commentaries
            worth consulting, including the following:

            Bock, Darrell L. _Luke_. IVP New Testament Commentary. Downers
            Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1994.

            Nolland, John. _Luke_. 3 Vols. WBC 35. Dallas: Word, 1989, 1993,
            1993.

            The above is by no means exhaustive.

            In Christ's service,
            Rob Bowman
          • wglmp
            The only CR-ROM I have contains Darby s, and he (it) says this: Matt 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 7, 2007
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              The only CR-ROM I have contains Darby's, and he (it) says this:
              Matt 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it
              might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets,* He shall be
              called a Nazarene.
              *An imaginary prophecy; it doesn't exist.
              Darby Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of
              Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots:
              "Netzer" doesn't have anything at all to do with Nazareth.

              Matt. 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the
              prophet,* saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the
              price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did
              value; 10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed
              me.
              *An imaginary prophecy nowhere to be found in the Book of Jeremiah.
              Darby No help

              Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him*: but
              woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for
              that man if he had never been born.
              *Nowhere in the Bible can it be found written that the "son of man is
              to go." Neither can any "woe" be found upon the man who betrayed him.
              Darby no help

              Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God,* I will send them
              prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and
              persecute: 50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from
              the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; 51
              From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished
              between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be
              required of this generation.
              *Luke accredits this anti-Semitic and false charge to "the wisdom of
              God." One can search in vain for any reference to the slaying of
              Zacharias, whom Matthew identifies as the son of Barachais (Matt.
              23.35).
              Darby no help

              John 7.38: 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture* hath said,
              out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
              *This is another imaginary scripture nowhere to be found in the Bible.
              But I wish to offer a caviat to this one. The NEXT VERSE says,
              39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him
              should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that
              Jesus was not yet glorified.)
              I believe most people have assumed that what had not yet been given
              was only the Holy Spirit, but I wonder if it was also the Scripture
              that had not yet been given. Any opinions?
              Darby no help

              John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy
              name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is
              lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture* might be
              fulfilled.
              *This is another imaginary prophecy. Before this claim was made, "son
              of perdition" is not found in the Bible AT ALL. Again, though, the
              Scripture that might be fulfilled MAY be given in the next verse:
              13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world,
              that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
              If that is the case, does anybody know where THAT Scripture might be
              found? I looked for it using Yahoo's on-line search engine, but
              didn't see any references other than John 17.
              Darby no help

              Eph. 5:14 Wherefore he saith,* Awake thou that sleepest, and arise
              from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
              *Paul does not say who was the original author of these words. He
              makes them appear to come from God but they are nowhere to be found
              in the Bible. The name or title "christ" first occurs in the NT, and
              does not appear even once in the Bible before the New Testament book
              of the Gospel According to Matthew.
              Eph. 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise
              from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
              Darby Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of
              the LORD is risen upon thee.
              This seems very forced to me. Isaiah 60:1 doesn't say anything about
              anybody sleeping, nor awakening. Isaiah says the light IS come,
              whereas Ephesian's light is yet to come, decades or centuries after
              the light in Isaiah had already come.
            • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
              wglmp, I worked hard and spent considerable time to provide you with several excellent resources and also made some observations to help you approach the
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 8, 2007
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                wglmp,

                I worked hard and spent considerable time to provide you with several
                excellent resources and also made some observations to help you
                approach the subject with more understanding. You seem to have ignored
                everything I said; my effort seems to have been wasted on you.

                I wish I could say I was surprised.

                In Christ's service,
                Rob Bowman
              • wglmp
                A) Dude! It would seem some of us need to take a chill pill. After all, patience is a virtue. Perhaps I have a life OUTSIDE yahoo groups? B) I think I said
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 8, 2007
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                  A) Dude! It would seem some of us need to take a
                  chill pill. After all, patience is a virtue.
                  Perhaps I have a life OUTSIDE yahoo groups?
                  B) I think I said that Darby is the only resource
                  I have available to me OFF LINE, (that is to say,
                  on CD-ROM), which had anything worth reporting.
                  None of the other OFF LINE resources I have at my
                  disposal were of any value in this area.
                  C) Why would you say "I wish I could say I was
                  surprised"? Is your advice ignored often? Or am I
                  to assume you have had dealings with ME before,
                  so that it is well known to you that I often
                  ignore helpful advice?
                  D) Are we to understand the tone of your post to
                  be "Christ-like" given that you sign your posts
                  with "In Christ's service"? Maybe, since I seem
                  to recall Christ answering people quite sharply
                  when they asked something he didn't like having
                  asked, or when they answered in a way he didn't
                  like hearing. Here are some examples:
                  Matt 17:17 O faithless and perverse generation,
                  how long shall I be with you? how long shall I
                  suffer you?
                  Mark 8:17 Why reason ye, because ye have no bread?
                  perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye
                  your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye
                  not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not
                  remember?
                  Mark 8:21 And he said unto them, How is it that
                  ye do not understand?
                  Luke 9:41 And Jesus answering said, O faithless
                  and perverse generation, how long shall I be with
                  you, and suffer you?
                  Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and
                  said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
                  So, yes, maybe answering with a sharp tongue for
                  a simple question IS what Jesus would do.
                  Or was that the point you were TRYING to convey
                  WITHOUT having to spell it out like I just did
                  FOR you?
                  Just asking.

                  wglmp

                  --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr."
                  <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > wglmp,
                  >
                  > I worked hard and spent considerable time to provide you with several
                  > excellent resources and also made some observations to help you
                  > approach the subject with more understanding. You seem to have
                  ignored
                  > everything I said; my effort seems to have been wasted on you.
                  >
                  > I wish I could say I was surprised.
                  >
                  > In Christ's service,
                  > Rob Bowman
                  >
                • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
                  wglmp, You wrote: A) Dude! It would seem some of us need to take a chill pill. After all, patience is a virtue. Perhaps I have a life OUTSIDE yahoo groups? I m
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jul 8, 2007
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                    wglmp,

                    You wrote:

                    A) Dude! It would seem some of us need to take a
                    chill pill. After all, patience is a virtue.
                    Perhaps I have a life OUTSIDE yahoo groups?

                    I'm usually a very patient person. Take as long as you like to do
                    the necessary reading and reflection before posting. I responded to
                    what you posted, which reflected zero attention to what I wrote.

                    B) I think I said that Darby is the only resource
                    I have available to me OFF LINE, (that is to say,
                    on CD-ROM), which had anything worth reporting.
                    None of the other OFF LINE resources I have at my
                    disposal were of any value in this area.

                    Why bother posting about the weaknesses of what you found when I had
                    already directed you to much better resources?

                    C) Why would you say "I wish I could say I was
                    surprised"? Is your advice ignored often? Or am I
                    to assume you have had dealings with ME before,
                    so that it is well known to you that I often
                    ignore helpful advice?

                    Yes, skeptics who tell me they are interested in seeing good
                    responses to apparent biblical difficulties often ignore those
                    responses when I offer them. As to whether I have had any dealings
                    with you before, I have no idea, since you are not using any sort of
                    name.

                    D) Are we to understand the tone of your post to
                    be "Christ-like" given that you sign your posts
                    with "In Christ's service"? Maybe, since I seem
                    to recall Christ answering people quite sharply
                    when they asked something he didn't like having
                    asked, or when they answered in a way he didn't
                    like hearing.

                    Gee, who really needs to take a chill pill? If a sardonic "I wish I
                    could say that I'm surpised" offends you, Christ's denunciations of
                    the hypocrites must really seem over the top to you. And do you
                    actually claim that there is anything wrong with sharp words of
                    rebuke, or is this an ad hominem criticism?

                    You wrote:

                    So, yes, maybe answering with a sharp tongue for
                    a simple question IS what Jesus would do.

                    Um...what was that simple question? My criticism was directed at
                    your ignoring the resources I provided, not at any simple question
                    you asked.

                    In Christ's service,
                    Rob Bowman
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